With a POD of 1100 AD is it possible for the Goryeo Korea to conquer the Jin Dynasty, Sumeragi told that Goryeo had designs for Manchuria, what will happen if these designs push through?
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AHC:Goryeo conquers the Jin Dynasty
- Thread starter kasumigenx
- Start date
Well, I think Sumeragi (or whatever his or her name was) is a little off. You probably need somebody better versed in Korean history than me, since I know so little.
Just from a little bit of research, it seems that the idea to attack the Jurchen Jin was motivated by a Buddhist monk, Myocheong, who influenced Injong of Goryeo, but who couldn't get the rest of the Confucian-dominated court to agree to the idea. Myocheong raised his own army, revolted, and was crushed. (By the way, can anybody explain the debate over geomancy in Korea for me?)
Perhaps, in order to get this idea started, Myocheong better influences Goryeo's king, while the important Confucians like Kim Bu-sik die off or get sidelined in the process. Injong moves the court to Pyongyang from Kaesong, and attacks the Jurchen Jin, and Myocheong becomes more powerful and influential.
Unfortunately I don't have more right now, and hopefully somebody who knows the subject better than I do can explain how Goryeo would win. I certainly don't think Goryeo would win, given the strength of the Jin Dynasty at this time.
Just from a little bit of research, it seems that the idea to attack the Jurchen Jin was motivated by a Buddhist monk, Myocheong, who influenced Injong of Goryeo, but who couldn't get the rest of the Confucian-dominated court to agree to the idea. Myocheong raised his own army, revolted, and was crushed. (By the way, can anybody explain the debate over geomancy in Korea for me?)
Perhaps, in order to get this idea started, Myocheong better influences Goryeo's king, while the important Confucians like Kim Bu-sik die off or get sidelined in the process. Injong moves the court to Pyongyang from Kaesong, and attacks the Jurchen Jin, and Myocheong becomes more powerful and influential.
Unfortunately I don't have more right now, and hopefully somebody who knows the subject better than I do can explain how Goryeo would win. I certainly don't think Goryeo would win, given the strength of the Jin Dynasty at this time.
scholar
Banned
No, not unless the Jin is collapsing. In which case the Song will take precedence. Whatever Korea does conquer will either be swiftly lost or Korea will have to move its capital into China. When China is eventually reunited this could lead to a complete loss of korea as an individual culture and it will be absorbed like so many other cultures in contact with China. If both are collapsing and another faction cannot resist them in the north then this only hastens Korea's assimilation into China.
Is it possible for Manchuria be annexed by Korea instead of Goryeo conquering Jin completely, since there are no Chinese population there yet
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Or having a Manchu dynasty take root in Korea. See The Geum Dynasty thread for more details.
scholar
Banned
There was an extensive population of Chinese inside lower Manchuria and has been since the state of Yan and the Zhou preceding it. That said, if one merely conquers outer manchuria without getting too involved then it is possible for Korea to continue to government from Korea and keep the sinicizing to a minimum.
Actually, that almost happened in OTL have you heard about Koguryo?
scholar
Banned
Goguryeo was Korean, not Manchu. In fact, Manchurian as a concept did not exist when Goguryeo was around.
Wasn't Goguryeo the reverse? The Korean dynasty that had territory in Manchuria? That's different from the reverse, which would be a Tungusic/Manchu Dynasty taking over Korea.
Edit: Mostly ninja'ed.
But they started in OTL Manchuria, it is quite nice to see a Korea that has territories north of Amur.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Well, I'm not sure if we can find anyone aside from Sumeragi who is familiar with Korean and Japanese history. She was after all, banned from the site.
scholar
Banned
Nope.
The exact origins are unknown, but the Goguryeo historical records state that it was a break away state from Buyeo. Myth states that Goguryeo was founded in northern Korea. The Chinese, however, corroborate that for the most part. Further, at this time, much of Manchuria was heavily Korean influenced. Its not Korean per say, but the peoples there were largely influenced by Korean culture. Gongsun Du, Kang, the Han, and later Wei would ruin this and Manchuria would be heavily Chinese based.
RousseauX
Donor
No, because the Koreans arn't going to be better at fighting/keeping control over semi-nomads any better than the Chinese were before modern times.
.... The Amur is the Northern Border of Manchuria.....
Balhae did expand to Yeonhaeju in OTL so it is possible for them to control the North of Amur River I don't think they can retain it for long because it might be lose when Korea becomes unstable..
It's a little more complicated than it seems.
One of the reasons that the Jin was able to conquer the Liao was because it negotiated with Goryeo first. Although Goryeo was able to retain its northwest border at the Amrok/Yalu river because it repelled initial invasions, then convinced the Liao, it found itself on the other side when they confronted the Jurchen.
After building a wall in order to prevent further invasions, Goryeo initially managed to seize territory north of the wall and set up nine fortresses in Jurchen territory. However, Goryeo aristocrats argued that they would be costly to maintain, so the Korean ruler offered the Jurchens an option to kneel and pray if they wanted their territory back. A significant amount did this, causing the recently conquered territory to be reverted. Only eight years later, they conquered the Liao, pushed the Song south of the Huai river, and founded the Jin dynasty.
Had Goryeo been more adamant in retaining its fortresses, it might have later found a reason to push north of the Amrok/Yalu and Duman/Tumen rivers, and eventually claim a significant portion of Manchuria. What happens after is open to speculation, because Goryeo, instead of the Jin, could have overthrown the Liao in optimal circumstances, which could have led to tense relations with the Song. Meanwhile, any POD after the Jin took over North China would be problematic, as the Jin rulers viewed themselves to be direct descendants of a Silla or Goryeo person who fled because of political strife. This meant that the Jin would have been less willing to invade Goryeo, and Goryeo would only have taken defensive actions as it did with the Liao. Some records do suggest that Goryeo probably had territory and a few fortresses in southern Manchuria, but it was most likely temporary and was in response to or to prevent an invasion.
On the other hand, the Liao was able to maintain a border with Goryeo after it conquered Balhae. Had Goryeo managed to convince the Liao that the former Balhae territory should be theirs by emphasizing cultural and linguistic relationships, they might have taken over a significant amount of southern Manchuria, but it would be hard to say how much, because Goryeo might not be able to pacify the population, and the Khitan would not have been happy with losing so much territory. Another possibility is for Balhae to repulse Khitan invasions, although because we have very limited information about the former state, it is hard to assume what they could have done in order to stay independent until it negotiated with Goryeo to form an alliance.