WWII PC & WI: the Allies take Berlin
- Thread starter Yorel
- Start date
The Allies did not have any significant military presence in Berlin when Soviets entered the city. Japanese military delegation was not present in sufficient strength to take the city, and by April 1945 the Nazi Germany did not have any other allies left.
Not to be pedantic but the Allies did take Berlin since the Soviets were part of the Allies.
I take it you mean "what if the Western Allies take Berlin" and it would take huge changes to get them to be able to do it. They (with a couple of exceptions, <cough> Patton <cough>) were perfectly happy to let the Soviets take Berlin and the casualties that were involved. Probably the only POD that I can think of would be to have the Soviets decide they wanted the west to take Berlin and slow down. But that was unlikely to happen since they didn't want the Western powers inside their eventual occupation zone if they could help it - and Berlin was inside their zone.
I take it you mean "what if the Western Allies take Berlin" and it would take huge changes to get them to be able to do it. They (with a couple of exceptions, <cough> Patton <cough>) were perfectly happy to let the Soviets take Berlin and the casualties that were involved. Probably the only POD that I can think of would be to have the Soviets decide they wanted the west to take Berlin and slow down. But that was unlikely to happen since they didn't want the Western powers inside their eventual occupation zone if they could help it - and Berlin was inside their zone.
Snake Featherston
Banned
The Soviets *were* the Eastern prong of the Allies. I have yet to hear a convincing explanation of 1) how the people that repeatedly bungled the most elementary tactical issues in the war will avoid this in the urban nightmare that is Berlin when they're put right back into another Metz, and 2) why annexing territory to withdraw from it later is a wise political move. If anything it's a splendid propaganda move.....for Stalin.
A massive Soviet defeat in January of 1945 coupled with a total collapse of the Wehrmacht in the West (probably a linked event with virtually all the Western Troops moved to the East) would allow this. That is about it.
It has to happen before Yalta and the Soviets have to be in a much weaker position when Yalta takes place. After Yalta Berlin was Stalin's, and he was welcome to it. Spending 100K+ men to take a City that you will immediately hand over 3/4 of the control to others was pointless.
IF Bradley had ok the move by the division that was closest i dont see that Wencks 12th army would do much more than surrender and allow the Americans to go through and then we might see the scenario Henrichi and Busse promissed their men, that they would only fight for as long as it took from American tanks to come up their rear.
OTL, much of the defence of Berlin came from the men cut off from Busses 3rd army. How many of the according to Wikipedia 40 000 Volksturm would have fought against US troops that WASNT going on a kill them all and let god sort them out tour like the red army?
OTL members of the police fought against the Russians, ITTL i think they would stand aside and rather help the Americans.
OTL, much of the defence of Berlin came from the men cut off from Busses 3rd army. How many of the according to Wikipedia 40 000 Volksturm would have fought against US troops that WASNT going on a kill them all and let god sort them out tour like the red army?
OTL members of the police fought against the Russians, ITTL i think they would stand aside and rather help the Americans.
Yeah, I know. But I'm lazy and Allies is much shorter than the Western armies. That or I played Red Alert too much...tchizek said:
Would the Germans making a desperate offensive on the Eastern front rather than the Western front work? By this, I mean having an *Ardennes offensive but on the Eastern front rather than the Western one?CalBear said:
I'm thinking the Führer could order this out of his "communistophobia".
Considering he got roughly a fourth of Germany proper + the whole Eastern Europe in his sphere of influence by making them "vassal" communist states, I'd say that's a small price to pay to his allies...CalBear said:
Also, no one has answered this, but what would be the effects of Berlin being taken by the Western Allies rather than the Soviets? Is Germany still splitted like it was OTL?
EDIT: sorry mattep74, I didn't see your response before now.
Snake Featherston
Banned
He did this IOTL. It was called Operation Spring-Awakening and it was a complete flop. Germany's problems in this regard were not desperation, and if Germany's having a "milder" war in the East that just makes them pour more into the 1944 Ardennes Offensive.
I wouldn't. Look at how they reacted to the Battle of Metz IOTL and how well they actually did against large German armed formations. Put the WAllies against a million fanatical Nazis and the populations of those states will be screaming bloody murder about senseless deaths.
Yes, as the occupation zones were already agreed-upon. Berlin will still be divided into East Berlin and West Berlin. If the WAllies decide to void the agreements at Yalta with the war still going on in the Pacific then they've started the Cold War giving the Soviets the easy win in propaganda terms.
Snake Featherston
Banned
Given what the Germans did IOTL in say, Aachen the idea that they weren't just as willing to bleed themselves to no real gain against the West is a bit of a nonsense. Berlin will be Aachen times 100.
Snake Featherston
Banned
No POD short of a massive rain of meteorites. There is no military means for Germany to do this, the Soviets were just that powerful by this point. You literally cannot do this outside the ASB forum, and if the Germans throw 1,000,000 fanatics at the West thereafter we'll see a repetition of what happened IOTL at Aachen and the Huertgen Forest.
Not true. Dont have Stalin as Soviet Leader, dont industrialize east of the Urals in the 1930's, have the Nazi's capture all Soviet Industrial centers in the West and there's not much the Soviets could do to oppose the German conquest. The Western Allies alone could not supply the Soviets with all the equipment they would need to fight the colossal battles that occured on the eastern front and if the Soviet insutrial centers are in Nazi hands with little-to-no industry further east the Soviets will simply lack the means to fight on even if they had the will and would have to capitulate.
Alright almost ASB, but if Market Garden worked ( the plan was frigging nuts, I know ) you could keep the German root and butterfly the "miracle in the West".
With the Ruhr in WAllied hands, the war will not end by December as they said, but they could perfectly be in Berlin by March ...
EDIT: And an insufferable Monty of course ...
With the Ruhr in WAllied hands, the war will not end by December as they said, but they could perfectly be in Berlin by March ...
EDIT: And an insufferable Monty of course ...
MARKET GARDEN almost worked despite the mistakes made. The 82nd Airborne taking its bridge on time ay have sped up XXX Corps' advance, Bradley not letting Patton launch the Lorraine Campaign and Hodges launch the Hurtgen Forest at the same time would have freed up more quipment for the operation, Monty actually taking charge and not leaving everything in the hands of Browning, Brereton and Dempsey would have made a big difference.
The problem was that the operation wasn't really going to get the Allies all that far. It would get them around the Sigfried line but they wouldn't be able to exploit that flanking move as they wouldn't have the strenght in 2nd British Army's sector to push on for months and Antwerp still needed to be made operational before any advance into Germany could begin.
Not to mention that even if Bradley was forced to halt the operations in his sector until MARKET GARDEN ended he would still insist on starting them again once MARKET GARDEN had finished, and Eisenhower would support this as part of his broad front strategy meaning that no matter what the success of 21st Army Groups operations at this point they would still be halted so that resources could be relocated to Antwerp and 12th Army Group.
One of the main problems of having Eisenhower as Supreme Commander was his inability to make clear the levels of importance of strategic targets. As such despite the Rhur industrial center being the most important strategic target in the west there was never any focus put on it by the office of SCAEF and no coordination of effort between the two Army Groups in the vacinity to take it - even after the failed Ardennes offensive.
Well I´m not so optimist of the real chances of MG, but my point stands. Without the Ruhr ( even if they are so fools that they do not go for them, it will be inside artillery and Logistic and CAS bombers ) the Germans will be crushed. I doubt the Germans can mount an Ardennes offensive in that conditions ... oh well they can ( knowing how utterly nuts was Adolf ) but ...
My two cents
I'm not sure if this will work:
No Market-Garden. Instead 21st Army Group cleared Antwerp earlier. His will probably butterfly away Wacht am Rhein, since there wasn't a clear Allied epic fail in the west (IMHO MG was a spectacular fail). Hitler had a rare moment of sanity and began pulling all available German forces back home. Garrisons in Norway and northern Italy were recalled, and Luftwaffe assets not expended during the Ardennes Offensive covered the evacuation of the Courland Pocket. Sending all the returning units to the east and you'd get maybe 30% more combat power on the Oder (ballpark number
), I think. Could be enough to hold back Soviet forces for another day or two. With attention focused on the east, Wenck's army won't be able to stop 2nd Armored and 83rd Infantry's advance (IIRC Wenck himself said he couldn't have stopped the Americans if they really made a run for Berlin).
The "pull-out-all-forces" idea came from BlairWitch647, by the way.
Marc A
I'm not sure if this will work:
No Market-Garden. Instead 21st Army Group cleared Antwerp earlier. His will probably butterfly away Wacht am Rhein, since there wasn't a clear Allied epic fail in the west (IMHO MG was a spectacular fail). Hitler had a rare moment of sanity and began pulling all available German forces back home. Garrisons in Norway and northern Italy were recalled, and Luftwaffe assets not expended during the Ardennes Offensive covered the evacuation of the Courland Pocket. Sending all the returning units to the east and you'd get maybe 30% more combat power on the Oder (ballpark number
), I think. Could be enough to hold back Soviet forces for another day or two. With attention focused on the east, Wenck's army won't be able to stop 2nd Armored and 83rd Infantry's advance (IIRC Wenck himself said he couldn't have stopped the Americans if they really made a run for Berlin).The "pull-out-all-forces" idea came from BlairWitch647, by the way.
Marc A
After 1942?
Divine intervention.
The USSR was not going to have an economic collapse, not while the U.S. was pumping massive quantities of raw material and finished products into the country. Since the rest of the Economy was fully controlled, that removed the only possible stopper (and it isn't much of a possibility). Stopping Lend-Lease would also require some heavy ASB since it so obviously worked and was hurting the Reich so seriously.