A Khan in Constantinople

[Russian]

Originally Posted by cimon

I customarily don't watch such things as discovery;at any rate go to the following site:www.coldsiberia.org/monbow.htm,so don't be so rush in your statements...The superiority of the Mongol bow has long been established and I have given authorites in this thread above.Research is never admissible from films or...discovery channel

Oh, thanks! I have finally seen the source where you take your info from.

Perhaps this bow is not quite as well-known in the West as the classical English longbow, which was the best bow ever to emerge in Europe. Yet the Old Mongolian bow was incomparably superior to everything seen in the West.

I liked this article. It shows superiority of the Mongolian bow to the European bows.

But it says nothing about the 'Turkic bow' which had the same technical characteristics as the Mongolian bow.

So the only thing left for you is to find a good article about Turkic bows (and Turkic horsemanship).
And compare the 'Turkic bow' and the Mongolian bow.

Originally Posted by cimon

It is said that a Mongol first learns how to ride and then how to walk. I have seen one time their yearly horsemanship show and I tend to believe it.

Before the Mongols the Eurasian steppes were dominated by peoples of 'Turkic' origin.
It is said that a 'nomad Turk' first learns how to ride and then how to walk.

Cimon, a piece of advice:
- see some show about nomad Turks's horsemanship. I assure you would tend to believe it as well.

[pike]

Its funny how i some times run into these threads (Most recently on paradox forums) with that very odd and partially impossible idea that some how a mongol would make it to the top of the East Roman Empire and turn it all around.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Russian

Oh, thanks! I have finally seen the source where you take your info from.

I liked this article. It shows superiority of the Mongolian bow to the European bows.

But it says nothing about the 'Turkic bow' which had the same technical characteristics as the Mongolian bow.

So the only thing left for you is to find a good article about Turkic bows (and Turkic horsemanship).
And compare the 'Turkic bow' and the Mongolian bow.


Before the Mongols the Eurasian steppes were dominated by peoples of 'Turkic' origin.
It is said that a 'nomad Turk' first learns how to ride and then how to walk.

Cimon, a piece of advice:
- see some show about nomad Turks's horsemanship. I assure you would tend to believe it as well.

How do you explain the fact that Mongols carried away all Turkish states in central Asia? The Mongols conquered the Eurasian space from the Pacific ocean to the Adriatic sea in the space of a generation;they move with the speed of 70 kilometres a day,"They moved faster than our armoured divisions and even easier due to the fact that their logistics was elementary(general Guderian in his advance to the channel achieved the phenomenal 54 klm/day in may 1940)"-general de Gaul.
Sir Basil H. Liddel-Heart based his theory about armour movement on the feats of the Mongol cavalry; are we still correct in comparing Turks and their horse movements to the Mongols?

[Rainbow Sparkle]

Originally Posted by cimon

How do you explain the fact that Mongols carried away all Turkish states in central Asia?

Disunity? The united mongol's used the divide and conquer techniques to crush or absorb the various tribes and states in their path. It might also help that, to my knowledge, the region is sparsely populated during the time. Anyone with sufficient force and the means to conquer the region could probably do it.

Better organization and good generals might also have something to do with it.

[Basileus Giorgios]

Originally Posted by pike

Its funny how i some times run into these threads (Most recently on paradox forums) with that very odd and partially impossible idea that some how a mongol would make it to the top of the East Roman Empire and turn it all around.

I don't think it's all that impossible. Plenty of Armenians did it, after all, and Justin and Justinian were thought to be rustic northern barbarians by large elements of their court. The Eastern Roman Empire was emphatically not merely a Greek state.

[Basileus Giorgios]

Although, I suppose by this period it's distinctly more unlikely. By concentrating power on the family, the Komnenoi were able to very effectively close what had hitherto been a fairly open society in Byzantium, where even a peasant boy could dream of the throne. After 1081, it was the same alliance of feudal aristocrats all the way to 1204, and these aristocrats continued to govern the Greek successor states afterwards. If Nikephoros wants the throne, I would think at the very least he needs to marry an Imperial princess. How this could be done is anyone's guess...

[God-Eater of the Marshes]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

I don't think it's all that impossible. Plenty of Armenians did it, after all, and Justin and Justinian were thought to be rustic northern barbarians by large elements of their court. The Eastern Roman Empire was emphatically not merely a Greek state.

From my knowledge though, the ERE became increasingly more and more hegemonial Greek as the centuries went on. Plus the Armenians are a different situation than a Mongol, as the Armenians are much more entrenched in Eastern Roman society - the Mongols were the barbaric inhabitants of a distant periphery of the globe. I could be wrong though.

That said, with the inherent drive and determination of Temujin/Nikephoros, I think he'd be able to be a general and/or a high-ranking member of court. All he needs then is a knife and the will to commit a coup. Whether he'd last long is a different matter.

[RPW@Cy]

Originally Posted by Russian

Oh, thanks! I have finally seen the source where you take your info from.

I liked this article. It shows superiority of the Mongolian bow to the European bows.

It asserts the superiority, it doesn't demonstrate it.

But it says nothing about the 'Turkic bow' which had the same technical characteristics as the Mongolian bow.

So the only thing left for you is to find a good article about Turkic bows (and Turkic horsemanship).
And compare the 'Turkic bow' and the Mongolian bow.

I've linked to this book before on "Age of Miracles", but on the page linked here the author discusses his experience with a Turkic bow, which he liked very much. Unfortunately he doesn't mention a Mongol bow (unless it's the same as the Tatar one that so disappointed him), but reading this in comparison with the link earlier on this thread implies they are roughly equivalent.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by RPW@Cy

It asserts the superiority, it doesn't demonstrate it.



I've linked to this book before on "Age of Miracles", but on the page linked here the author discusses his experience with a Turkic bow, which he liked very much. Unfortunately he doesn't mention a Mongol bow (unless it's the same as the Tatar one that so disappointed him), but reading this in comparison with the link earlier on this thread implies they are roughly equivalent.

Since when demonstration is part of evidence? I don't think demonstration proves anything today.The assertion you claim is done by experts and it is sufficient! you want to deny evidence? you may,but it is obstinacy since your above argument is splitting hairs for argyment only...authorities have been sited already.The fact is that the Mongols palverised Turkish horsemen all over the length and breth of Asia that is a part of undisputable evidence that doesn't leave space for further argument.

[Russian]

Originally Posted by cimon

How do you explain the fact that Mongols carried away all Turkish states in central Asia? ...are we still correct in comparing Turks and their horse movements to the Mongols?

Originally Posted by cimon

The fact is that the Mongols palverised Turkish horsemen all over the length and breth of Asia that is a part of undisputable evidence that doesn't leave space for further argument.

Are you still speaking about the superiority of Mongolian bow and Mongolian horsemanship to the Turkic ones?

Thanks. Now I see the chain of your logic. And the origin of this myth.
This is a logic of a child: "If the Mongols conquered the Turks it was because the Mongolian weapons were better than the Turkic weapons".
There are MUCH more factors which influence the outcome of wars. Maybe hundreds. And speaking about the said period some factors are still unknown to us and I guess will stay that way.

And who are you trying to convince this way?
Ask any kid in this forum and in one breath he would name you half a dozen of battles and wars which were won by someone who had worse weapons than it's opponent.
And if you give this kid a few minutes more this list will be as long as your arm.


The following for those who got interested in the subject.
"Mounted archers of the steppe 600BC - AD1300"


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[Russian]

There's a website which glorifies the Mongolian archery:
The Evolution of Mongolian National Archery

But even the ardent fans of Mongolian archery humbly admit that there was nothing extraordinary or unique about it, they just state that the Mongols were good at using it:

The Mongolian 13-th century bow resembles that of the Turkish invention (Batsaihain April 14, 2008) ...
...The bow the Mongols carried was similar to the composite bow used by others in Central Asia yet it was the complete marriage of man, horse, and bow that set the Mongolian soldier apart.

[Grouchio]

I apologize, but my patience is starting to dry...

UPDATE! UPDATE! UPDATE!

[elkarlo]

Subscribed!

[Arrix85]

subscribed!

[General Greene]

I'll be keeping an eye on this one. Looks very promising. Keep up the good work.

[Basileus444]

Errnge: Thanks. Will try.

thekingsguard: Okay.

Inquisitor Tolkein: I kind of have to now. I can't think of any more.

Shnurre: That is interesting. I didn't know that.

cimon: The Byzantines' main problem navy-wise wasn't creating a good fleet. It was consistently maintaining it. Under Manuel I, the Byzantine navy was very powerful, but under his successors it collapsed into utter worthlessness, making the Fourth Crusade possible.

Russian: Interesting and informative. Thanks. And this is why I'm making the focus of this TL on Byzantium and neighbors. In Central Asia I'm out to sea.

von Adler: Okay, thanks.

Rainbow Sparkle: That is a very valid point. There's no possible way TTL that Nikephoros is going to get his OTL army. He won't be quite the same and he won't have the same super-army. So the TL isn't going to end with Nikephoros on top of a Byzantine Empire that's managed to restore the Justinian borders.

pike: I think it's a result of the mentality that Byzantines and Mongols are cooler, therefore Mongol Byzantines are the awesomest thing ever. I don't think that Temujin/Nikephoros' race isn't going to be a barrier. Modern racism hasn't been invented yet. At the time, Greek-ism is pretty much a matter of being Orthodox Christian and speaking Greek. Look at Digenes Akrites, which deliberately and prominently celebrates a mixed-blood hero, half Greek and half Arab.

Basileus Giorgios: I agree. Nikephoros' lack of a good last name I consider more of a burden then his ethnicity. I do have an idea on how to fix that, which will appear in the update after this one.

God-Eater of the Marshes: Nikephoros does have the advantage that he's so far from home. The Mongols don't even exist on the Byzantine cultural horizon, so Nikephoros isn't a member of some barbarian tribe, just some funny looking kid. And by the time he's in a position to make any sort of run at the purple, he will have been Byzantine far longer than he's been a Mongol. OTL Genghis Khan on the throne of Byzantium would be like Basileus Krum I. TTL Nikephoros would be more like Justinian.

RPW@Cy: That's the opinion I'm getting. Turkish and Mongolian bows and horsemanship are roughly equivalent, with minor differences in capabilities, but both significantly outperforming contemporary Europeans. Mongol organization and meritocracy were what I always used to explain the Mongol conquest OTL anyway, which fits in well with what I'm learning here.

Grouchio: Patience. Anatolia was not re-conquered in a day.

elkarlo and Arrix85: Hope you enjoy it.

General Greene: Thanks. Will try.

[Basileus444]

Southern Paphlagonia, near the River Halys, 1174 CE:

“How many, Nikephoros?” Manuel asked, his face grim.

“At least eight hundred. Moving along the west bank of the river heading northeast.”

“You’re certain you weren’t spotted.”

Nikephoros looked hurt for a second, but then shook his head no. “I was very careful. They didn’t see me.”

The other scouts nodded, a short, skinny Turk named Stefanos opening his mouth. “We never would’ve spotted them if it wasn’t for him. We’d likely both have gone our separate ways and never been the wiser.”

Manuel nodded. The boy of twelve still wasn’t a proper soldier; technically he was still his slave, but Manuel had stopped thinking of him like that a long time ago. But he was a superb horseman with keen eyes, and he was small, making him an excellent scout. Manuel had started using him as such just a few months earlier, and he’d already allowed them to maul two small Turkish raiding parties since they’d arrived in Paphlagonia, but in each of those battles, they’d had a numerical advantage of at least three to one. Here their allagion was outnumbered over two to one.

“Ow!” Manuel looked behind him to see Isaac Angelos reach down to pick up a wooden sword, massaging his left arm. His opponent, some Armenian, smiled toothily.

Manuel turned back to Nikephoros, taking a deep breath and inhaling a mouthful of dust. He coughed heavily, Nikephoros handing him his flask a second later. He nodded thanks after taking a swig. Here on the outskirts of the central Anatolian plateau, the fertile valleys and lush meadows of the Black Sea coast were giving away to hilly, dry scrubland. The fitful breeze occasionally kicked up clods of dust as the noontime sun nonchalantly stared down, its rays beating against his forehead.

To the east the sluggish Halys rolled along on its way to where it would soon be joined by the Amnias, its banks lined by a few sickly green plants wilting under the hot sun. There weren’t any clouds in the sky, nor any birds save a few vultures lazily circling on an updraft. Nikephoros looked up at them and smiled. “They know,” he said. Manuel nodded, taking another sip. Vultures knew what armored men usually meant: buffet time.

Nur ad-Din had died earlier in the year, removing a threat that Constantinople had used to hang over the head of the Seljuk Sultan Kilij Arslan II, the specter of a two-front war. He had also been a major support for the Danishmend Turks, the only thing preventing Konya from uniting all of central and non-coastal eastern Anatolia under one banner. As soon as Nur ad-Din had perished, the Sultan had moved on the Danishmends, laying siege to Sivas in eastern Anatolia. However while the Sultan was away, many of the Turkomans on the frontiers had begun raiding the Roman border again, prompting the deployment of Manuel’s allagion to the frontier.

“Composition?” Manuel asked, now that he could speak again.

“Light cavalry, the lot of them. Horse archers, no armor.” Stefanos said.

Nikephoros then opened his mouth. “They’re inexperienced.” Manuel raised an eyebrow. “They’re clumped together, no proper flank guards or scouts.”

Stefanos nodded. “Nikephoros is right. These aren’t professional troops, just a bunch of men on a raid. Brave men certainly, skilled with the bow and horse, and good fighters, but they aren’t soldiers.”

Manuel scratched his chin. “Get Adem over here.” Stefanos nodded and left, the scouts turning and leaving as well. “Nikephoros, you stay here.” Isaac was limping towards them, massaging his thigh; the Armenian had gotten in another blow.

Adem walked up a moment later. “I want the buggers,” Manuel said. “Suggestions?”

The Turk squinted for a second, thinking. “There are an awful lot of them. Even with their armor, the doryphoroi won’t stand a chance at range, while the kataphraktoi will be useless. They’ll never catch those cavalry.”

“So we can’t take them in the open. We’ll just have to ambush them instead.”

“Where?” Isaac asked, gesturing at the dusty terrain and sneezing.

Nikephoros pointed at the bank of the Halys, where a wide and squat hill was plopped, with a space of about thirty meters between it and the river. “How about there? If we hide the kataphraktoi behind that hill and get the Turks to ride between it and the river, they’ll be pinned up against the Halys.”

Nikephoros turned and blinked. Manuel had a grin on his face, but not one filled with humor. His teeth stared out at him. It was the grin of a lion deciding exactly how it was going to have lunch. He had seen such a grin before, on the face of his father just before a skirmish with Tatars when he was five.

Thirty minutes later, Nikephoros was no longer looking at a grin, although it was possible, indeed probable, that at least some of the eight hundred Turks headed towards him, were smiling. They were getting closer, although for the moment only moving at a trot. “Think they’ve seen us?” Ioannes asked, the skinny, hairy Cuman pointing his long nose above Nikephoros at the third member of the group, Adem.

“Nah, I’m not sure. Why don’t you go and insult their mothers just to make sure they’ll follow us?”

Nikephoros ignored them. He was staring at the great tide of men coming towards him. From the distance they looked like the men who had sold him into slavery, the members of his family who had betrayed him, caused his siblings, his mother, to be abandoned, scattered, across all the lands of Asia. His hand grabbed the bow strapped to his back, specially made for his size at the order of Manuel himself, his leather jacket crinkling.

A hand placed itself on his left shoulder. “Steady, mikro ippea,” Adem said. “You don’t want to scare them off with your bow work, would you? Those yokels couldn’t hit a cow. They’d screw one, seeing as how they’re prettier than their women, but they couldn’t hit one.” Nikephoros blinked in confusion.

Ioannes laughed. “He’s only twelve. Anyway, we should probably get moving.” Adem nodded and the three horsemen started falling back. As soon as they did so the Turkish riders sped up, now into a canter.

“Looks like we need to really move,” Adem said, whipping his reins and urging his horse into a gallop. Moments later Ioannes and Nikephoros followed. They managed to reach the seventy doryphoroi with an ample lead over the Seljuks. They had paused for a moment when they spotted the Roman contingent, but almost immediately resumed their rapid canter; they still had a ten to one numerical advantage.

Adem pulled up his horse in front of the group, Stefanos trotting forward, looking like a commander talking with a forward scout. Adem made a few frantic gestures back at the Turks just as they burst into gallop, the steady thunder of their hooves beating out a massive dust cloud like the tail of a great beast. “All right, you maggots!” Adem yelled. “If you have to pee, guess what, you missed your chance! Let’s ride!” The eighty doryphoroi turned around, the Turks just entering bow range. A few archers lashed out, none connecting.

Nikephoros looked back. “They’re gaining!” he yelled over at Ioannes.

“I know!” the Cuman yelled back.

They passed the hill, fleeing onward up the Halys, back towards Roman territory. At the rate the Turks were gaining, there was absolutely no way the doryphoroi would make it. The Turks pounded past the hill, racing after the prey, some of them already calling out whoops of victory. Then some of them had the presence of mind to look to their right. Eighty kataphraktoi, their mounts snorting, their armor glistening, stared back. Those Turkish riders slammed to a halt.

The ones behind them, still at a gallop, slammed into their rear, and all of the sudden the stream of horses had turned into a confused, tangled mass. There were no shouts, no trumpet calls as the kataphraktoi moved. There was only the sound of drums, the sound of horses’ hooves beating on the drum of the earth, a steady, pounding rhythm that very shortly reached its crescendo.

Thirty meters. The doryphoroi began wheeling around, Adem snapping out his bow and loosing an arrow in one slick motion, toppling one of the forward Seljuk riders.

Twenty meters. More doryphoroi spilled out from the other side of the hill, behind the Seljuk riders. More arrows lashed out, some from the doryphoroi on both sides, others from those who had dismounted and now crested the hill.

Ten meters. Now the kataphraktoi spoke. Manuel’s deep bellow roared out “Hagios Giorgios!” Two meters later eighty voices answered.

Impact.

Men and horses went down screaming as Roman lances speared their sides, accompanied by the crackling and snapping of wooden lances. Down they went and out came the maces, as the doryphoroi too slammed into the Turks. The Turkomans still had a numerical advantage, but they were frightened, confused, and trapped in melee against heavier opponents. The sound of screams grew louder.

Nikephoros watched; he was not part of the battle. Though skilled with the horse, hence his placement as part of the initial bait, he was still too small to be any good in a melee. Turkish horsemen were spilling into the Halys, trying to get away from the hammer blows of the kataphraktoi. The Halys was flowing slowly and so was of little danger, but the archers on the hill now had a clear target, sending arrows screaming down on their heads. The river gained a crimson tinge.

A few Turks somehow managed to escape the crush, spilling out and charging at Nikephoros. He pulled out his bow, stood up in the saddle, took three deep breaths, and loosed the arrow. One of the riders toppled off his mount, the horse racing on even faster. The others did not shoot back; they did not want to fight anymore, but simply to get away. He loosed another arrow, but that one missed.

The brutal, crushing melee lasted less than fifteen minutes, although even after just that short span of time the killing ground was covered with the bodies of dead men and horses, mostly Turks but with some Romans scattered amongst them. A few more corpses bobbed down the Halys. The snaps of bones breaking under maces was soon replaced by pleas for mercy as one by one the surviving Turks surrendered.

Isaac Angelos trotted up, a few arrows sticking out of his armor, although he was unhurt. He gestured with his bloody sword at the dead Turk sprawled on the ground, an arrow in his throat. “Your first kill?” Nikephoros nodded. “Congratulations. You’re already tied with me.” There was a sickening, meaty crunch behind the Greek as an Armenian took an axe and put a crippled doryphoros mount out of its misery.

“Magnificent!” Manuel shouted. He was on his feet, wiping the blood and brains off his mace on the cloak of a dead Turk. His horse standing next to him snorted. The allagator glowered at the animal and then mounted the horse, trotting over to Nikephoros and Ioannes. He glanced back at the pile of dead, as Roman soldiers were disarming their captives. “Remember this, both of you. There is more to a battle than the number of fighters. Terrain, equipment, dumb luck, all of those can sway the course of a battle.” He stared into Nikephoros’ eyes. “That, and the fire in men’s souls. A man who can ignite that is virtually unstoppable.”

[General Greene]

Splendid update! A wonderful piece of tactical skill on the part of the Byzantines. It's going to be fun seeing Temujin slowly develop from a skilled scout into a ferocious warrior.

[Reichenfaust]

Nice update. I really like where this is going.

[tonsofun]

Very well written. I cannot wait for the next installment.