A Khan in Constantinople

[God-Eater of the Marshes]

Interesting and well-written update, good work.

So young and it already looks like Temujin has his foot in the door.

Also, good choice on the name, let's hope he lives up to it and brings many victories!

Question: if the Romans end up adopting the Mongol archery and horsemenship tactics (or at least elements of it), how do you think it would effect the militaries of the West (like France and the HRE et cetera) would we see a spread of such practices? Or would it remain a Roman speciality?

[MarshalBraginsky]

Byzantine composite bows? Now that would be a total nightmare, especially if the Turks are facing the Byzantines with these kinds of arrows.

[SavoyTruffle]

Originally Posted by Sibirskaya

Byzantine composite bows? Now that would be a total nightmare, especially if the Turks are facing the Byzantines with these kinds of arrows.

And the Romans have better combined arms, too. And with Nikephoros the Mongol as Strategos...

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Any chance we could have a Varangian Guard-esque unit of Mongols protecting the Byzantine Emperor?

[SavoyTruffle]

Originally Posted by Cuāuhtemōc

Any chance we could have a Varangian Guard-esque unit of Mongols protecting the Byzantine Emperor?

If by chance some of them follow Temujin into slavery in Rome.

[thekingsguard]

Superb update! Great choice for a name and I'm glad to see the young Khan has made his first splash with the Romans!

[TyranicusMaximus]

Originally Posted by Sibirskaya

Byzantine composite bows? Now that would be a total nightmare, especially if the Turks are facing the Byzantines with these kinds of arrows.

The Byzantines already had composite bows IOTL, although it's not definitive if they were widely used, but the Byzantines usually recruited Steppe Nomads if they needed archer cavalry.

[Bavarian Raven]

love where this is going keep it coming

[MarshalBraginsky]

A Varangian Guard-esque group of Mongols following Temujin may likely be from among either the captured Merkits or Tatars.

[Yelnoc]

You have backed your epic concept up with excellent writing. Subscribed.

[Russian]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

“This is awesome! If we could get more of these, we could outrange the Seljuks! Chop them up really good before they get a chance to respond.” Temujin now too had a big grin on his face, leaving Isaac the only dissenter, his brow curled in confusion. Then Adem frowned. “The only problem is that at that range, accuracy is going to be absolutely horrible. Except for the very best, such as me, Stefanos, or mikro ippea here…” He pointed offhandedly at Temujin, calling him by his Greek nickname amongst the men, little horseman. “…when he gets older, everyone else will be lucky if they can hit something smaller than an allagion.”

“We have a way that helps a lot,” Temujin said.


“What is it?” Manuel asked.

“We ride at the gallop, shooting arrows only when all four of the horse’s feet are off the ground.”

Basileus444, the problem is the Mongols did not invent anything new in archery or horsemanship or whatever.
The 'Mongol bow' had the same characteristics as the 'Turk's bow' which the Byzantines had known for at least for half a thousand years. And especially there was nothing new in it for the soldiers of the Turkic origin in this Roman detachment.

The shooting technique of the Turks was absolutely the same as that of the Mongols.

So, with all due respect to literary aspect of your update the little Mongol boy teaching the seasoned Turkic nomad warriors the archery skills is very funny.

Originally Posted by Basileus444

The doryphoroi were a mix, with sixty unarmored skirmishers composed of Romanized Pechenegs and Cumans, the remainder armored in light scale armor and made up of Romanized Turks, Magyars, and Alans.

I doubt that there was something we might call 'Romanized' Pechenegs and Cumans. There were the nomads in Roman service who personally might serve for a long time. But they most definitely were born in steppe very far from Roman cultural influence.

Pechenegs and Cumans are of Turkic origin themselves.
Alans... Hm, what do you mean? Where did you find them in this time?

[kasumigenx]

I find the idea of Genghis Khan being a Byzantine emperor very cool..

[Berserker]

Alans... Hm, what do you mean? Where did you find them in this time?

in a small mountain range known to man as the Caucasus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alania

[Russian]

Originally Posted by Berserker

in a small mountain range known to man as the Caucasus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alania

thanks Berserker, i seemed to get mistaken

my sincere apologies to Basileus444

[Basileus444]

God-Eater of the Marshes: Thank you. Temujin/Nikephoros seems the sort of guy who would get an early start. I think horse archery would remain largely an eastern phenomenon as it did OTL. After all, Europeans had lots of experience with horse archers, but while Jerusalem fielded turcopoles, France didn't. Western Europe/HRE doesn't really have the human stock needed for horse archery. The Byzantines earlier managed to produce native horse archers through rigorous training, but that, to my knowledge, had largely declined by the Komnenian period, being replaced with mercenaries.

Sibirskaya: Well, the Byzantines already had composite bows by this time (I believe they got them from the Huns). I was under the apparently mistaken impression that Mongol composite bows were a cut above the usual composite bows used by Byzantines and Turks.

SavoyTruffle: That always seemed to be one of the greatest strengths of the Byzantine army. An army that can field heavy cavalry and horse archers has a sizeable advantage over an army that can field only one of the two categories.

Cuauhtemoc: Possibly. It'd probably look more like a Byzantine version of Keshiks and it'll likely be made of various steppe tribesmen. Unless Jamukha or somebody else gets some form of the Mongol conquest going (or it gets brutally squashed by the Chinese, causing many to flee westward), I don't think it's likely that a lot of Mongols are going to make it that far west. The real Varangian Guard is still around though.

thekingsguard: Thanks. Temujin/Nikephoros has made his first splash, but khan he swim?

TyranicusMaximus: The Byzantines had composite bows and used them a lot. They were very fond of the bow since they liked fighting enemies at range, since it usually wasn't as bloody as heavy troops slamming each other. Although by this point, native Byzantine horse archers seem to have largely vanished, hence the high number of mercenaries in the army and in Manuel's allagion.

Bavarian Raven: I'll try.

Yelnoc: Thank you very much!

Russian: I wasn't too sure about that section. I knew the Byzantines and Turks had composite bows and the 'shoot while galloping' seems likely something the Turks (and hence the Byzantines) would know. Some of the sources made it seem that the Mongols had uber bows and invented the galloping tactics. I'll rewrite the update and post a corrected version when I get the chance. Thanks for correcting me.

Romanized Pechenegs and Cumans are in the sense of they've converted to Christianity, taken Christian names, and speak Greek. It's largely cosmetic. Also the Cumans and Pechenegs aren't that far away. They're in modern Romania, just across the Danube from Byzantine Bulgaria. And part of the Crimea is still Byzantine at this point. In addition, there's been diplomatic interaction between Constantinople and the steppe peoples of the Ukraine since Heraclius' day. By now, the Byzantines and Pechenegs have been interacting for three hundred years (although by this point the Pechenegs are going down really fast) and the Cumans for at least a century.

kasumigenx: I think everyone reading this thread is thinking that.

Berserker: The Caucasus are small? What's your definition of big mountain ranges?


Due to Russian's pointing out of technical inconsistencies, I will be posting a revised update of this last section when I get the chance.

And just out of curiosity, did anyone notice the name of Temujin/Nikephoros' sparring partner?

[MarshalBraginsky]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

God-Eater of the Marshes: Thank you. Temujin/Nikephoros seems the sort of guy who would get an early start. I think horse archery would remain largely an eastern phenomenon as it did OTL. After all, Europeans had lots of experience with horse archers, but while Jerusalem fielded turcopoles, France didn't. Western Europe/HRE doesn't really have the human stock needed for horse archery. The Byzantines earlier managed to produce native horse archers through rigorous training, but that, to my knowledge, had largely declined by the Komnenian period, being replaced with mercenaries.

Sibirskaya: Well, the Byzantines already had composite bows by this time (I believe they got them from the Huns). I was under the apparently mistaken impression that Mongol composite bows were a cut above the usual composite bows used by Byzantines and Turks.

SavoyTruffle: That always seemed to be one of the greatest strengths of the Byzantine army. An army that can field heavy cavalry and horse archers has a sizeable advantage over an army that can field only one of the two categories.

Cuauhtemoc: Possibly. It'd probably look more like a Byzantine version of Keshiks and it'll likely be made of various steppe tribesmen. Unless Jamukha or somebody else gets some form of the Mongol conquest going (or it gets brutally squashed by the Chinese, causing many to flee westward), I don't think it's likely that a lot of Mongols are going to make it that far west. The real Varangian Guard is still around though.

thekingsguard: Thanks. Temujin/Nikephoros has made his first splash, but khan he swim?

TyranicusMaximus: The Byzantines had composite bows and used them a lot. They were very fond of the bow since they liked fighting enemies at range, since it usually wasn't as bloody as heavy troops slamming each other. Although by this point, native Byzantine horse archers seem to have largely vanished, hence the high number of mercenaries in the army and in Manuel's allagion.

Bavarian Raven: I'll try.

Yelnoc: Thank you very much!

Russian: I wasn't too sure about that section. I knew the Byzantines and Turks had composite bows and the 'shoot while galloping' seems likely something the Turks (and hence the Byzantines) would know. Some of the sources made it seem that the Mongols had uber bows and invented the galloping tactics. I'll rewrite the update and post a corrected version when I get the chance. Thanks for correcting me.

Romanized Pechenegs and Cumans are in the sense of they've converted to Christianity, taken Christian names, and speak Greek. It's largely cosmetic. Also the Cumans and Pechenegs aren't that far away. They're in modern Romania, just across the Danube from Byzantine Bulgaria. And part of the Crimea is still Byzantine at this point. In addition, there's been diplomatic interaction between Constantinople and the steppe peoples of the Ukraine since Heraclius' day. By now, the Byzantines and Pechenegs have been interacting for three hundred years (although by this point the Pechenegs are going down really fast) and the Cumans for at least a century.

kasumigenx: I think everyone reading this thread is thinking that.

Berserker: The Caucasus are small? What's your definition of big mountain ranges?


Due to Russian's pointing out of technical inconsistencies, I will be posting a revised update of this last section when I get the chance.

And just out of curiosity, did anyone notice the name of Temujin/Nikephoros' sparring partner?

Isaac, as in from Isaac's Empire of Basilieus Giorgios?

[Grouchio]

Originally Posted by Sibirskaya

Isaac, as in from Isaac's Empire of Basilieus Giorgios?

No, not that one. This Isaac is OTL Issac Angelos, a very weak and incapable emperor who's reign helped the fall of the Queen of Cities.

[Natte]

My thoughts upon starting reading this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjBRNqwDPrU

This TL is an absolutely insane, crazy, nuts, mad, lunatic, silly, wacky, deranged, bonkers work of a maniac, a truly awesome idea, love it. *salute* .

Really looking forward to seeing where this will go.

Originally Posted by Grouchio

No, not that one. This Isaac is OTL Issac Angelos, a very weak and incapable emperor who's reign helped the fall of the Queen of Cities.

Indeed, so I suspect that either he will take after Temujin/Nikephoros and become a bit better.... oooor Temujin/Nikephoros will shove him aside, there will be "a bit" of a power struggle after which the Great God-Khan of Romankind Nikephoros will reign with absolute power and bring civilization to the rest of mankind!

Joke joke, just the funny though of Temujin as "bringer of civilization" made me giggle on the inside. But I assume Isaacs new playmate/sparring partner will have some influence on him. One thing is for sure, they are gonna have interesting adulthoods, and I suspect either as best friends, or worst enemies/rivals.

[Berserker]

Berserker: The Caucasus are small? What's your definition of big mountain ranges?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hondsrug

must be the most epic mountain range in my home region

[Russian]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

Due to Russian's pointing out of technical inconsistencies, I will be posting a revised update of this last section when I get the chance.

I hope I didn't spoil your excellent TL.
All people make mistakes.

I am that way myself.
As Berserker proved.

Originally Posted by Berserker

must be the most epic mountain range in my home region