What else is there to know about Emperor Max of Mexico?

SPJ · Feb 12, 2012

I've been reading a few TLs lately that involve the 2nd Mexican Empire being successful and long lasting and I have to admit that I find the concept very interesting. I am somewhat doubtful though about whether the 2nd Empire would end up making Mexico a more successful country today or not. Or if a Mexico run by Emperor Maximilian would go out to concur other countries which has happened in some TLs I've read. I was wondering if anyone could provide more evidence to convince me on whether these things would be likely or not.

I know that the 2nd Empire has been talked about quite a bit in other threads already but I am hoping that we could use this thread to also talk about other ideas and situations that might occur in a TL with the 2nd Empire that haven't been explored much before now.

PS: I am hoping that this can help me gather more ideas for my own TL which I am working on that involves a successful 2nd Empire and CSA. Be warned it will be in the ASB section though but I want to gather as much info as I can since I want the political and social situation involved to be realistic.

M79 · Feb 12, 2012

French general Maxime Weygand was reportedly the son of Empress Charlotte and one of the staff officers sent on an expeditionary force to Europe, maybe he makes it to Emperor of Mexico somehow? Also, the Archduke/Emperor and Empress adopted the grandchildren of Iturbide, a former Emperor of Mexico - why did they not have children of their own, or if they did what would they look like?

I suspect and Imperial Mexico will eye everything it owned in 1823, so chunks of Central America are likely to be targeted directly or indirectly for reconquista. It is doubtful that an Imperial regime will try to obtain the territory lost in the Mexican-American war, but maybe in a generation or two things will go differently. There will still be corruption but I think it will be more open, not better but just different. The US will be supporting rebellious elements to get the Europeans out of the New World, and perhaps a buffer state is formed out of part of northern or northwestern Mexico in response - Juarez's people at one point controlled only Baja California, Sonora, and Chihuahua, so maybe that gets broken off to form a Republic of Mexico vs an Empire of Mexico.

SPJ · Feb 12, 2012

M79 said:
French general Maxime Weygand was reportedly the son of Empress Charlotte and one of the staff officers sent on an expeditionary force to Europe, maybe he makes it to Emperor of Mexico somehow? Also, the Archduke/Emperor and Empress adopted the grandchildren of Iturbide, a former Emperor of Mexico - why did they not have children of their own, or if they did what would they look like?

I suspect and Imperial Mexico will eye everything it owned in 1823, so chunks of Central America are likely to be targeted directly or indirectly for reconquista. It is doubtful that an Imperial regime will try to obtain the territory lost in the Mexican-American war, but maybe in a generation or two things will go differently. There will still be corruption but I think it will be more open, not better but just different. The US will be supporting rebellious elements to get the Europeans out of the New World, and perhaps a buffer state is formed out of part of northern or northwestern Mexico in response - Juarez's people at one point controlled only Baja California, Sonora, and Chihuahua, so maybe that gets broken off to form a Republic of Mexico vs an Empire of Mexico.

Interesting, do you know of any examples of political corruption that would occur you could tell me more about? Also I don't mean to get to far ahead of myself but what would revolutionaries of OTL like Pancho Villa be like and do in a Mexico controlled by the Empire?

Sicarius · Feb 12, 2012

If you can get the Empire stable, or at least passably stable, that's good for Mexico's economic future, especially since you'll likely see French investment. Also, I don't know how much conquest you'd see out of the Empire, but it would be interesting if they tried to grab an area that was worthy of a canal.

SPJ · Feb 12, 2012

Sicarius said:
If you can get the Empire stable, or at least passably stable, that's good for Mexico's economic future, especially since you'll likely see French investment. Also, I don't know how much conquest you'd see out of the Empire, but it would be interesting if they tried to grab an area that was worthy of a canal.

Besides Panama the only other country I know of in which a canal was planed was Nicarague. Now even though I don't know much of the history involving the central american countries of OTL and TL in which Mexico takes over all the countries southward until at least Nicarague does sound interesting to me. Does anyone know of a TL in which something like this had already been done so that I can look at it?

Plus what sort of actions in general is it going to take to make the Empire stable, and how is the gov. supposed to acheive it? Also what could Max do to help himself win over the people more. I understand that he actually cared for the well being of Mexican citizens by they cared more about independence since the felt it gave them at least a better reason to be proud of themselves.

Fiver · Feb 12, 2012

M79 said:
I suspect and Imperial Mexico will eye everything it owned in 1823, so chunks of Central America are likely to be targeted directly or indirectly for reconquista. It is doubtful that an Imperial regime will try to obtain the territory lost in the Mexican-American war, but maybe in a generation or two things will go differently. There will still be corruption but I think it will be more open, not better but just different. The US will be supporting rebellious elements to get the Europeans out of the New World, and perhaps a buffer state is formed out of part of northern or northwestern Mexico in response - Juarez's people at one point controlled only Baja California, Sonora, and Chihuahua, so maybe that gets broken off to form a Republic of Mexico vs an Empire of Mexico.

The Republic of Mexico vs an Empire of Mexico is and interesting idea. One thing to keep in mind is Maximilian is a French puppet and the French were expansionistic. It's entirely possible Imperial Mexico would go to war with the Confederacy over claims to Texas.

SPJ · Feb 12, 2012

Fiver said:
The Republic of Mexico vs an Empire of Mexico is and interesting idea. One thing to keep in mind is Maximilian is a French puppet and the French were expansionistic. It's entirely possible Imperial Mexico would go to war with the Confederacy over claims to Texas.

Maybe, but another situation that I've been considering for my own ATL is to have the CSA keep there division of the Arizona territory after the war and then some time later have Max sell Baja California and perhaps also the political division of Mexican Arizona to the CSA to give them access to the Pacific. I want to do this as a means to correct the problem I had with Turtledove's TL-191 because he didn't involve the fact the the Empire redivided the country after their takeover and so it looked nothing like what was in his book. The logic I was going to use for having Max sell it was that he could use the funds to help industrialize the country, keep a good relationship with the CSA, and get ride of a peace of land that was very hard to defend militarily. Plus with what M79 wrote about that area it may seem even more likely for Max to want to get rid of that land and its inhabitants.

Also even though Max was a French puppet I was wondering if there is any reason to believe that after some time he might cut his strings.

WeisSaul · Feb 12, 2012

Well considering that because of a plurality of reasons, the British would never have intervened in the civil war on behalf of the Confederacy, the French and by extension the Mexicans would have intervened though.

All throughout the war, Lincoln was supporting the Mexican republicans and stationing troops on the border. This pressed the Franco-Imperial Mexican forces to put troops on the other side of the border to keep the US from trying anything. Meanwhile the French were buying cotton from the South and supplying the south the whole war. It doesn't take much of a stretch of the mind to see the Austro-Franco-Imperial coalition joining up with the Confederacy to deal with US meddling.

Also, a fun fact is that the Russians, who resented the French quite a bit because of the Crimean war, were again being threatened by the French over the January uprising in Poland. In order to prepare for a highly likely (but in the end avoided) war with France and Britain, the Russian Empire stationed two fleets in New York Harbor.

A great war between the Russo-American coalition and the Confederate-Imperial alliance again doesn't take much of a stretch of the mind.

So supposing the alliance defeats the coalition, you have a confederacy that controls Arizona, Indian territory, and Kentucky, along with the original states, though WV is iffy. You also have a Mexico that needs cash to consolidate itself. The Confederacy would probably take advantage of Mexico's need of cash, and make an offer for territory. Baja California is a must for any Confederate Wank, and portions of Sonora and Chihuahua are always necessary.

The Confederacy will not get all of Sonora though. A big reason France wanted to take over Mexico was for Sonora, which was rich in gold and other minerals just waiting to be exploited. The Isthmus of Tehuantepac would be a good place to possibly establish a canal if you put enough time and money into it. That or you can set up very good ports on both sides and build a rail line crossing both, and maybe connecting to Veracruz.

With the extra funds, infrastructure advancement, and a much earlier period of stability, Imperial Mexico could become a fairly prosperous country. Also I'm pretty sure that when Imperial France and the UK but heads, Mexico is going to snatch Belize, and from that point they'll try to take over Guatemala, and probably try to just annex everything down to Nicaragua and establish a canal there.

Plus there would be a population boost to Mexico. A stable prosperous Mexico would attract more immigrants than the unstable OTL one that we all are aware of.

SPJ · Feb 12, 2012

WeisSaul said:
So supposing the alliance defeats the coalition, you have a confederacy that controls Arizona, Indian territory, and Kentucky, along with the original states, though WV is iffy. You also have a Mexico that needs cash to consolidate itself. The Confederacy would probably take advantage of Mexico's need of cash, and make an offer for territory.

I don't intend on letting the CSA keep WV and I plan on having the union keep half of KY and forming the state of Nickajack as a means of land trade so the south keeps AZ.

Baja California is a must for any Confederate Wank, and portions of Sonora and Chihuahua are always necessary

Conf-Wank! I resent that

. I really do want to avoid a wank TL though so Mexican Baja CA and AZ is all I intend on letting them get.

Thats enough about what I want just for my ATL now so lets talk about other possibilities for TLs involving the 2nd Empire in general so that we can help others out with similar ideas.

The Isthmus of Tehuantepac would be a good place to possibly establish a canal if you put enough time and money into it. That or you can set up very good ports on both sides and build a rail line crossing both, and maybe connecting to Veracruz.

Do you have any resources to show if this was ever attempted before in OTL? its an interesting idea but it looks like it would be way more complicated to complete than the Panama canal or even a canal in Nicaragua.

Sicarius · Feb 12, 2012

Fiver said:
The Republic of Mexico vs an Empire of Mexico is and interesting idea. One thing to keep in mind is Maximilian is a French puppet and the French were expansionistic. It's entirely possible Imperial Mexico would go to war with the Confederacy over claims to Texas.

I can't imagine why, the Confederacy supported them. Why not go after the Southwest, owned by the US and with a far smaller population than Texas, which is full of heavily armed people that will fight tooth and nail?

scholar · Feb 12, 2012

Fiver said:
The Republic of Mexico vs an Empire of Mexico is and interesting idea. One thing to keep in mind is Maximilian is a French puppet and the French were expansionistic. It's entirely possible Imperial Mexico would go to war with the Confederacy over claims to Texas.

Actually it was a bit more complex than that. The government was largely left to the Emperor and his ministers and the war was largely fought between Mexicans.

It is ASB that Imperial Mexico under Max would go after the Confederacy over Texas.

SPJ · Feb 12, 2012

scholar said:
Actually it was a bit more complex than that. The government was largely left to the Emperor and his ministers and the war was largely fought between Mexicans.

It is ASB that Imperial Mexico under Max would go after the Confederacy over Texas.

I thought as much. But what about my thoughts on them selling an independent CSA Baja CA and or Mexican Arizona? Here is a map so you know what I'm talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mapa_de_Mexico_1865.PNG

Also I understand that Max had some liberal sensibilities. Would that mean that the 2nd Empire could easily become a democracy after some time like France or Britain.

scholar · Feb 12, 2012

SPJ said:
I thought as much. But what about my thoughts on them selling an independent CSA Baja CA and or Mexican Arizona? Here is a map so you know what I'm talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mapa_de_Mexico_1865.PNG

Also I understand that Max had some liberal sensibilities. Would that mean that the 2nd Empire could easily become a democracy after some time like France or Britain.

Mexican Arizona is ASB. The North of Mexico will be a nightmare for a couple years to decades. If the CSA is gone, then the USA can crush them. If the CSA is around and at peace with the north, then the CSA can defeat the Mexicans. Not quite 'crush', but probably enough so any war would be one sided and end with CSA gains.

France would probably not have become a democracy again had it not been for the Prussian wars, at least not as long as Nappy III reigned. And even if they still happened, it wasn't exactly likely that Nappy would have been kicked out. Almost everything he did was approved by public referendum.

As for Max leading to U.K. levels of democracy, the answer is a flat out no. Max had liberal leanings, but he was not a liberal. He abolished child labor and gave the middle class the right to vote, but there is no indication that he would ever wish for his rule to be one of being a figurehead. Odds are he would model Mexico after Austria and Prussia-Germany. He would also do the best to help out the poor and would still try to make peace with the liberals. He wanted to be a centrist in a country where only the right would have him, and this would ultimately lead to his downfall. As much as I hate to say it, had Max been from the same vein as the Tsars his reign would have been a long and stable one.

SPJ · Feb 12, 2012

scholar said:
Mexican Arizona is ASB. The North of Mexico will be a nightmare for a couple years to decades. If the CSA is gone, then the USA can crush them. If the CSA is around and at peace with the north, then the CSA can defeat the Mexicans. Not quite 'crush', but probably enough so any war would be one sided and end with CSA gains.

France would probably not have become a democracy again had it not been for the Prussian wars, at least not as long as Nappy III reigned. And even if they still happened, it wasn't exactly likely that Nappy would have been kicked out. Almost everything he did was approved by public referendum.

As for Max leading to U.K. levels of democracy, the answer is a flat out no. Max had liberal leanings, but he was not a liberal. He abolished child labor and gave the middle class the right to vote, but there is no indication that he would ever wish for his rule to be one of being a figurehead. Odds are he would model Mexico after Austria and Prussia-Germany. He would also do the best to help out the poor and would still try to make peace with the liberals. He wanted to be a centrist in a country where only the right would have him, and this would ultimately lead to his downfall. As much as I hate to say it, had Max been from the same vein as the Tsars his reign would have been a long and stable one.

Thank you, but why did you say "Mexican Arizona is ASB"? Do you mean that it wouldn't exist, because I posted a link to a map that says it did for a time? Or do you mean that they would never sell it to the CSA, and if so why not? Do you think that they would still sell Baja CA, or at least the northern half or it with MX still keeping the southern half like how it is divided today? Also what kind of downfall? Is that the one in OTL you mean or is there an ATL situation you think could be possible?

scholar · Feb 12, 2012

SPJ said:
Thank you, but why did you say "Mexican Arizona is ASB"? Do you mean that it wouldn't exist, because I posted a link to a map that says it did for a time? Or do you mean that they would never sell it to the CSA, and if so why not? Do you think that they would still sell Baja CA, or at least the northern half or it with MX still keeping the southern half like how it is divided today? Also what kind of downfall? Is that the one in OTL you mean or is there an ATL situation you think could be possible?

By Mexican Arizona I had thought you meant an Imperial Reconquest of the territory/state of Arizona. Which is ASB.

As for them holding on to Arizona, it wouldn't be too much of a problem if the CSA won and Mexico played its cards right. If the US won, then it works much more easily.

I doubt Mexico would be eager to sell land to foreign countries. It compromises Max too much. Only if he has to and only if he gets an offer the Americans would probably never give. :/

The Gunslinger · Feb 12, 2012

If you can find a way to kill off Benito Juarez, Max reign may well have succeeded. Juarez dying will probably cause quite the stir in the republican forces and more than a few will switch sides to Max. Once this happens, the Americans will come around at some point.

If you read Imperial Adventurer by Joan Haslip, Max seemed pretty keen to marry his younger brother off to the Brazilians (how likely this is is debatable), so you could end up with a Hapsburg Brazil as well as Mexico.

Max was also really big into major projects, so you could probably see a number of palaces and and other ventures getting built in and around Mexico City. AND depending on when he "wins" the civil war, he may not adopt the Iterbide children and he and Charlotte may try and have a child of their own. the church will also likely see major reforms, probably to the benefit of the average Mexican.

Having said all this, he was basically hamstrung his whole time there by the deals he signed with the French, so a lot of Mexican wealth will probably end up in France...

All in all, I like to think Maximillian's Mexico would have have been quite a bit better than OTL Mexico, but given that we have such a short reign to go off of, it's tough to say. Max did do an excellent job when he was in charge in Italy though, so I think he could have done a stand up job in Mexico.

SPJ · Feb 12, 2012

The Gunslinger said:
If you can find a way to kill off Benito Juarez, Max reign may well have succeeded. Juarez dying will probably cause quite the stir in the republican forces and more than a few will switch sides to Max. Once this happens, the Americans will come around at some point.

If you read Imperial Adventurer by Joan Haslip, Max seemed pretty keen to marry his younger brother off to the Brazilians (how likely this is is debatable), so you could end up with a Hapsburg Brazil as well as Mexico.

Max was also really big into major projects, so you could probably see a number of palaces and and other ventures getting built in and around Mexico City. AND depending on when he "wins" the civil war, he may not adopt the Iterbide children and he and Charlotte may try and have a child of their own. the church will also likely see major reforms, probably to the benefit of the average Mexican.

Having said all this, he was basically hamstrung his whole time there by the deals he signed with the French, so a lot of Mexican wealth will probably end up in France...

All in all, I like to think Maximillian's Mexico would have have been quite a bit better than OTL Mexico, but given that we have such a short reign to go off of, it's tough to say. Max did do an excellent job when he was in charge in Italy though, so I think he could have done a stand up job in Mexico.

What kind of actions did he take in Italy that he might have repeated in Mexico?Also what time exactly would be the best to kill Jaurez to have the best results for Emp. Max.

Plus why did Turtledove think that an Empire of Mexico would have a failing economy by 1880 in TL-191 when so many people have said that Mexico would be better off financially with the 2nd Empire in place?

PS:For my ASB ATL I want to involve having the French (and not the British) aid the CSA some time after the second half of the war by at least breaking the blockade on ports and starting trade with the CSA to boost its econemy. Could such an event be encouraged by killing off Juarez by that time.

Fiver · Feb 13, 2012

scholar said:
It is ASB that Imperial Mexico under Max would go after the Confederacy over Texas.

Why do you feel that?

scholar · Feb 13, 2012

Fiver said:
Why do you feel that?

Because of the nightmare that resulted the last time Mexico and Texas had a conflict and that Max is a liberal, not a Prussian.

M79 · Feb 13, 2012

I could see something like this -

*1864: Juarez and other rebellious elements are driven into northeastern Mexico as in OTL. Confederate fortunes are still going downhill but they are still able to draw out Union attention as an increasing number begin guerilla operations against the Union troops in the Deep South. Harassment against these supply lines continues so much that the fall of Atlanta is delayed for 2-3 weeks with lots of bad publicity generated against Union interests. This deflects attention away from the Mexico situation.
*1865: Sterling Price is able to escape into Mexico and takes a number of CSA troops with him. There is also some emigration from the CSA where wealthy planters seek refuge from a government they believe hostile to them. Robert E Lee unfortunately passes away in March 1865, leaving command of the Army of Northern Virginia to J.E.B. Stuart. A Confederate underground rises away from the major cities that reaches even into the West, where its most notorious members (OTL James Brothers) succeed in harassing the Transcontinental Railroad and robbing banks across the Midwest for years. Meanwhile in Mexico, Price is able lead forces into northwestern Mexico and smash what resistance remains.
*1866-1870: As the US recuperates from the guerilla activity and the war dies down, Maximillian builds a surprisingly stable government out of Confederate resources, European investments, and local ingenuity. Northwestern Mexico, compsed of six departments/four states, secedes to become the Republic of Mexico and recieves arms via "lost" shipments of guns at El Paso. Imperial forces begin a low-level guerilla war on the border as the new Republic survives as a US satellite with mineral wealth being siphoned off. Imperial interests begin to industrialize the country at a more accelerated pace (a la Porfiriato in OTL). We see the beginnings of industrialization and, thanks to Maximillian's reforms, an expanded middle class with some of the money falling to the lower classes as well. Maximillian banishes the bondage of the great estates and becomes *Very* popular with some of the poorest citizens in the nations, who think of him as a reformer. He is opposed by some of the conservative nobility and the Church but they are placated by his raising of his children as ardent Catholics along with his fathering two children (a son is actually that of Sterling Price from an affair shortly before his death in 1868 while a daughter is actually his).
*1870-1880: With the fall of Napolean III to the Prussians many believe that the Empire will crumble but with the support of the peones he has freed and the middle class who are enjoying more prosperity than they though possible even a decade ago. Guatemalans rebel from their old rule early in 1870 and by plebiscite seek to become part of Mexico because of the prosperity and increased freedom. Secretly many hope that the Empire can reunite Central America and break the backs of the cabals of large landowners that rule the banana republics. El Salvador follows when the price of indigo falls and border skirmishes with Honduras lead to an invasion of that nation in 1873. Washington protests but its navy is in a state of disrepair and the pains of reconstruction are still readily apparent, this causes Maximillian to quietly embark on a naval program of his own with more power concentrated in the Pacific. The Mosquito Coast (of Nicaragua OTL) is annexed by a plebiscite there in 1878 and the first steel steam cruisers of the Mexican Empire take to the sea quietly about the same time.
*1880-1890: Serious discussions begin in Mexico City about building a canal across the isthmus at Nicaragua lead to increased trade and a direct rail link between Managua and Mexico City. Maximillian coerces British, French, and German investors into believeing that the canal system will work and that it will benefit all their nations. Mexico and Nicaragua will administer the canal while the Europeans will be given tolls on it until 500% of their investment is reached. Mexican ships are also declared exempt from the toll, causing several ships from less powerful nations to register with Mexico and pay fees into His Majesty's coffers. Perhaps the most interesting development besides the canal is the Mondragon rifle, which is developed locally by a general officer and built via German/Swiss catholic immigrants who have set up small but very high quality machine shops in Veracruz. It is adopted by the Mexican army in 1888 as a standard weapon but not fully deployed among its units until 1890.

Eventually Mexico takes over the whole of Central America which is brought into moderate prosperity. He rules over an Empire that profits greatly from the Canal and becomes the impetus for US naval rearmament as the Mexican navy outguns that of the US by 2:1 in 1886. European Catholics begin to immigrate in greater numbers to Mexico than OTL and bring technical knowledge with them that allows the country to develop into a secondary power. Pancho Villa becomes a dictator in the north and eventually invades the Empire, Maximillian dies a martyr's death while visiting an aid station when raiders kill him at the age of 83 (he would have died of cancer within the year) allowing the Iturbide family to return to power. I do not know if there will be a war for Panama or a rival canal there, or if Hawai'i might go Mexican if their navy and commercial interests are strong enough. Mexico also has a strong history of trade with Japan, perhaps they play a key role in opening up the new country and begin a profitable relationship between two Empires. Up to you.