The Eastern Roman Empire resurgant a TL

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Basically I have done far more research into byzantine history reading the books of treadgold, Ostrgorsky, and other famous byzantine historians and so now I have come to look at an unusual period of its history. he Komenoi era. In otl the era saw the rise of Byzantine feudalism and this was one of the reasons why the Komenoi couldnt leave lasting effects on the empire. Here the empire will take a drastic new turn and I hope you enjoy. Please comment and point out the mistakes I make.



Now I present to you my tl

Chapter I: The Rise of the Eastern Roman Military State Part I

In the year of 1081 at the fierce battle of Dyrrachium the Normans under Robert Guiscard and Bohemund received a crushing defeat at the hands of the current emperor of the Romans Alexius I Kommnenos.

Now the reason for Guiscard's loss was the patience of the Byzantines. You see with the fall of Anatolia to the Turks the previous Roman system the theme had collapsed. Now rather than a soldier farmer more power was being given to the aristocracy. The internal foundations that the empire stood on at Alexius ascension had virtually disappeared.

However Alexius decided to try creating a new system from scratch.

Alexius after overthrowing Nikephros Botaniates and with the help of Michael doukas became emperor in 1081. However the state he acquired was in a state of virtual disintegration. Hardly any native troops remained, the empire was bankrupt, the backbone of the empire Anatolia had been lost, the Byzantine economy was in ruins, the Normans were wreaking havoc as were the Turks and pechenegs and so the ERE was undergoing a state of crisis never experienced before. Unlike the times of Heraklius or even Basil the empire no longer had the resources as before, then due to keeping Anatolia and having vast untapped resources the empire managed to reassert its dominance. Now however that no longer was possible due to the loss of Anatolia.

However Alexius devised a plan in order to recruit native troops for his army. Aside from the varangoi Alexius mistrusted troops from the west and realized paying for them was a terrible idea due t it reducing the empires treasury even more. Even worse many were not very loyal and had their own ambitions. Thus Alexius came up with a brilliant ploy to get new troops. It was the Military farm system. Alexius immediately split the empire into various military districts each controlled by a strategus of the army. These strategus were the rulers of the area they controlled but were loyal to the emperor and paid some of their income to him. They were soldiers who had distinguished themselves in battle and they were tasked with managing the provinces. However the strategus land was not hereditary and instead the state decided who received it and whether or not the strategus family can continue to use it. Also part of the tax he collected from the land would be given to the state. however he could keep the rest and he had the choice to chioose how he ran the land provided it didn't infringe upon the peoples, freedoms.. Most of the income given to state would go to building improvements to the area and lead to land development. In effect the people of the land would enjoy whatever necessities and the likes they want provided they pay taxes to the strategus and their own tax to the empire. However there was a way to escape this service. What commoners could do was register for the army. However instead of being paid in gold these new members would be paid in land grants aka small plots of land, which they would cultivate themselves. The strategus could only collect taxes that too based on the amount of wealth these soldiers produced. HE was in effect simply an administrator who controlled the land, collected taxes as required by the state, and oversaw its development but the people themselves were independent and they could work on the land and reap whatever benefits it provided them given that they paid their taxes. However these lands they controlled would only amount to around 5 acres per family who joined the military. However their would also be communal land or land where government offices, shops, and the likes were built. Thus you have many acres of land given to commoners who cultivate it with a central sector in the idle of the administrative area where the actual industry and market would be located. Each of these administrative divisions as its own little statelet and the people in it would be developing the land and provide service to the state. As for those people who didn’t receive any land they would be paid a monthly salary universally the same for all soldiers but the higher the rank you were in the army the more you will be paid by the government but in return you will have greater responsibility to ensuring the empires survival. As for the aristocracy they would keep their estates but would also like commoners have to pay taxes and provide military support. However this land they were given would come from the aristocratic hands meaning they had to pay rent to the aristocrats for owning the land. However there was an alternative that was that as the empire expanded with new land available they would be allotted this land provided they settle and farm it. However by accepting this proposition they would not receive their land immediately. Only after a campaign in which land has been retaken they would then receive it. Till then they would live in military barracks. A total of 50 different administrative provinces were carved out of the empires holdings and these would increase as soon as the empire conquered new lands. Thus when the empire conquers new land its soldiers will receive it and in turn must farm it and once the land was populated enough it would become an Administrative division of the empire. Soon seeing the prospect of new land and a way to escape their crushing poverty, taxes, and a chance to own their own land, thousands of commoners soon eagerly rushed to the recruitment centers wanting to sign up or the army.

Within months thousands and thousands of these soldiers applied eager to receive the land grants which they were promised after they served the empire for a period of 3-5 years in military service. Thus all this land the peasants did not receive immediately but would after five years. Also the soldiers would be allowed to take whatever loot they wanted from the dead enemies.

Eager at the prospect of money many more people signed up to the army.

Shortly thereafter to achieve officers military academies were in construction and some of the preexisting government buildings in the empire were converted to these academies where young boys would be given equal opportunity to prove themselves as capable officers. Now even commoners could become officers provided they were skilled enough and so the Byzantine army started to become a meritocracy. However usually rich boyds who could afford the money to hire tutors to train them got in easier. Also all families receiving grants must promise to always send their first boon and second born sons into the military after they reach of age. In this manner Alexius soon assembled an army of some 15000 troops of which 10000 were natives and 5000 on the march the army was regularly drilled, trained, and disciplined by its various officers.

Finally it reached Dyyrachion. On the way the Count of Rascia and zeta sent envoys promising the emperor his support but the emperor refused it. You see Rascia had been gaining power in the Balkans and it was becoming an eyesore. Alexius decided that one he finish with the Normans he will invade Rascia and crush that stupid count. The next night Alexius held a meeting with his generals discussing their plan of attack. The generals all agreed they should send false information to the Normans and launch a surprise attack. The Normans were given false news from a captured roman spy that the “Greek” camp was virtually defenseless and that its flank was virtually unprotected. So Guiscard and Bohemunnd decided it was best to catch the Romans by surprise and so they launched an assault at Alexius camp from the flank. The Normans fell into Alexius trap. Rather than a weak flank it was the most well defended part of the camp. Under the brilliant leadership of Nikephros Mellisenos the Byzantine flank numbering some 7000 troops managed to draw the Norman armies attention and keep it at bay while Alexius real army surrounded the Norman army of some 17000. Just before Alexius and the army had fled to the woods and waited for the Norman assault on the camp. Guiscard was caught by surprised when thousands of roman troops surrounded his army and suddenly the vardariots of the emperor soon fired their arrows at the exposed back of the army leading to hundreds of soldiers dying and with a fierce war cry by Alexius the army rushed into the fray attacking from all sides the Norman army. Heading the charge was all the emperors’ powerful Athanatoi and the varangians supplemented by various tagmas and kontophorous. The Normans soon reformed their positions under the orders of Robert Guiscard and fought back with ferocity against the roman soldiers. For hours the battle raged with neither side losing ground but finally in the end the Norman army was crushed. The final defeat came when Guiscard died from an arrow shot by a roman vardatroi hitting his chest and his son fell at the hands of a Roman tagmata soldier. In effect three different fronts was where the battles were being fought. For although Guiscard and Bohemund had been slain the Normans refused to surrender. The other two fronts were full of Byzantine skirmishing in which Strategus George Paleologos beat back the Normans. The Varangians however proved descive in crushing the Norman heavy knights. These hardy warriors soon unhorsed many knights killing any of them. Soon with the combined onslaught of both Athanatos and Varangoi the Norman knights were effectively crushed and soon wiped out. With the leaders of the Normans dead the Norman army broke rank and soon Dyrachium ended in a complete Byzantine victory. However the battle was won at a great cost, 6000 mercenaries and 5500 native soldiers died. But in contrast the entire Norman army of 17000 was wiped out. In a day over 28000 soldiers had died and hundreds more were wounded. Alexius was shocked at the news the next day but smiled. He had done it, the Normans were completely crushed. But he was not satisfied he soon turned to his fellow generals and gave them orders to prepare the army to march on rascia and once and for all eliminate that petty count who had been so irksome to them. So the remaining army of some 5000 soldiers supplemented by peasants numbered 7000 headed for Rascia. The emperor during this march was overjoyed when he heard of the victory at sea ; The Venetians who were allies to Byzantium and had been promised many royalties soon had their fleet engage the Sicilian fleet, which was soon sunk by superior Venetian tactics at sea.

Thus the Norman invasion was a complete failure, However Alexius on his march to rascia didn't keep his promise with Venice. A week after the battle news reached the doge that he had been tricked. The Romans had no interest in signing any treaties with Venice and simply said that they couldn’t afford to sign the treaties. This message when read by the doge made him mad. Venice itself was quite angry that the Romans had betrayed them.
On August 5th 1081 a fierce siege of Rascia followed. The roman soldiers crushed the count of Rascia and his army and soon rascia and zeta were annexed within months by the roman army. The Venetians could not really attack the Romans because Venice lacked a strong land army.

With rascia gone the Romans didn’t face much opposition from the area and in December after Alexius returned home in triumph signed a treaty with Hungary in which he married Irene, King Ladislavs daughter and soon the borders between the two kingdoms was set at the Danube with Croatia and Dalmatia under Hungarian control while Bosnia, Serbia, and Bulgaria would fall into the roman sphere and be under their control. Suddenly things changed when in early 1082 the HRE once more attacked Hungary, Ladislav appealed to the pope but the pope refused to act and let the HRE invade Hungary. Ladislav was angered and suddenly at the battle of pecs the imperial armies crushed his forces. At this perilous moment Alexius sent envoys to Ladislav with an agreement. Hungary had been betrayed by the catholic church which supported the HRE, so if Ladislav converted to Orthodox Christianity than the Hungarian church would not only be raised to an autonomous position but also he would receive roman support. Ladislav realized that these were reasonable demands and angry with the pope who didn’t act he soon agreed to the roman terms. Soon Alexius lead an army of some 10000 into Hungary, which proved crucial. With Ladislav regrouping the Hungarian forces the combined Hungaro-Roman armies inflicted a crushing defeat on Imperial forces. Soon the HRE sued for peace and the treaty of pecs was signed restoring status quo. On February 4th 1082 Ladislav converted to Orthodox Christianity and proclaimed it to be the true faith claiming that he had been betrayed by the catholic west, he was supported by the cardinal of Hungary who was altogether happy to become a patriarch of the Hungarian orthodox church soon he threw his support behind Ladislav. Plus due to the heroic feats of the Romans, many of the commoners soon consented and soon Catholicism was soon out of favor in Hungary, which was now turning into an orthodox state. The pope of Rome was simply stunned and it was said never forgave himself for doing something so stupid.

With a friendly power in the west and the Balkans up to Bosnia under his control Alexius turned to more pressing matter at hand. The Seljuk Turks.

After the disaster at Manzikert the seijuks had overrun Anatolia and Alexius was eager to get it back. But first Alexius knew he had to train his army. For the next three years from 1082-1085 Alexius had built new military schools and was turning the empire into a military state. Many troops were instilled discipline, officers were reading old Greek and roman texts on battle tactics and strategies and soon a powerful officer core made from the empires brightest minds was established. These fresh officers had graduated from military academies and were eager to fight on the battlefield. Thus the army also evolved. Soon new units were created such as Βασιλικό άλογο τοξότες( Royal Horse archers) as well as legions were introduced. These legions would form the frontal assaults made up of tagmas that would be positioned in the old roman tortoise formation with large shields and charge at enemy troops. They would form the front lines supplemented by pikemen to defend them from enemy mounted cavalry. Soon an army that was molded from western and eastern teachings and was mix of cavalry, infantry, and Archers had been created;
Meanwhile the imperial navy was soon rebuilt. With increased loot and funds from the campaigns a small roman fleet of 40 fire ships was created. These ships lead by the brilliant megas doux John doucas crushed the Turkish fleets of Emir Tzachas of Smyria thus clearing the way for a roman invasion of Anatolia.

The roman army soon attacked swiftly and captured many of the Turkish coastal cities. Using its newly created navy the Romans launched surprise attacks by sea on multiple coastal cities and soon the Anatolian coast was conquered from the siejuks by 1084. While this land was added the Turks in the land were soon killed. Not by the emperor’s orders but by soldiers who had been promised this land and so they displaced the Turks or rather killed them and took their stuff. Women, children, innocent civilians none mattered, as one soldier put it “ Kill the heathens and take their land, after all that is in my job description.” This lead to a massive depopulation of Turks in the coastal cities and eager roman troops took it as their payment. With the coast secure the roman armies marched for Nicea and shortly at its gate’s the forces of Emir Malik Toghruls son were crushed and the Turkish army of 7000 was annihilated by the hardy roman troops. After a fierce siege Nicea fell that august to triumphant roman forces. As before the soldiers went on to exterminate the residents wanting to take their land for themselves and also all the mosques were burned to the ground. The priests were dragged out and killed by soldiers and ambitious officers soon took all the treasures of the mosques and had them transported to the state treasury and be given medals. Soon to the officers it became a game to see who could deliver the most loot to the state and receive the most medals. These officers also viewed the Islamic Turks as being subhuman for that is how they had been trained. Across the empire at its schools and academies the officers were taught to hate the Turks who had taken their land. They were drilled too show no mercy to those heathens and retake Anatolia. However after much lobbying by the church to state it was decreed that those Turks who converted to orthodox Christianity and gave up their heathenic fate would be treated as normal roman citizens. However only 10-15percent of the Turks chose this proposal and most remained followers of the Islamic faith. Toghrol III tried desperately to hold off the Romans but it was futile the Romans simply outnumbered the Turks and had a superior military, unlike Romanos Diogenos and his incompetent army, Alexius had recently reformed the roman army and this new army was being tested, to also help the Romans were the brilliant officers and fanatical soldiers.

Even after repeated attempts at peace all of toghruls entreaties were ignored and the eager officers continued their eager conquest most of them aged 20-30 years were ambitious and wanting to make a name for themselves and especially those officers of common stock wanted to bring their family honor and prestige. Back at home it became an honor to fight the Turks for as roman decrees put it join the army and win fame, glory and land for your family. With these insurmountable odds the Turks soon lost city after city and at the battle of Caesarea Toghrol III was killed. With the death of Toghrol the Turkish resistance crumbled and by 1091 Anatolia from the Baltic coast to Caesarea was under roman control. They also captured toghruls son who signed the treaty of Caesarea and gave half his treasury to the roman state and all roman conquests were to be given to the Romans and the seijuks would revoke all claims to these lands.

Finally the end of 1092 had captured approximately a 1/3 of Anatolia by the roman armies and many new divisions were created.

With the wars over these officers remained in the vicinity garrisoning their troops in the various cities. Many had won many medals and awards. The soldiers too were satisfied now owning their own little plots of land. Alexius so returned to Constantinople in complete triumph.

Soon he had a daughter and son named Anna and john were born in late 1092.

Alexius now however faced a problem. The aristocracy back home was infuriated that they weren’t given much land and were all plotting against the emperor. By giving the land to soldiers and farmers Alexius had inadvertently alienated much of the aristocracy.
Soon various houses such as :Laskaris, Phokas, Bryyienos, and other noble families in Greece launched a revolt against the emperor hiring mercenaries and assembling a force of 10000 lead by Nikephros Bryyiennos marched against Constantinople.

However the Anatolian officers threw their support behind Alexius for although some belonged to these families virtually all of them had been drilled in school to be loyal and faithful to the emperor. Very few of the officers came from the families in revolt against the empire and those who did were promised a restoration of their honor and value loyalty to the emperor and wanted to make a name for themselves and so abandoned their families cause. Plus they were given awards and medals and so they happily supported Alexius. As did the Mellisaneans, the Doukids, and paleologians. The roman fleet too supported the empire. At the great battle of Thessalonica the nobility who had revolted against Alexius saw their army crushed. The mercenaries proved no match to native disciplined troops. Soon many of the aristocrats who opposed the emperor were soon executed and the government seized their estates and coffers. Alexius said it simply that those who betray the state are the worst and deserve nothing less than death.
The officers who killed them happily carried all of this out. Many of them had been sent as children to state schools and so they felt no remorse for their families because they had for years been told those who opposed the state were evil. Plus they were promised more prestige and glory by the emperor. Of course some officers disagreed but they were brought back to his side by the encouragement of their friends.

They were also paid handsomely by the emperor and were promised more chances at winning glory and getting richer and having lands in Anatolia. This motivated many to commit these atrocious acts.


Those nobles who had not taken part in the revolts shut their mouths and happily sung praises o emperor Alexius and soon threw their support behind him and his family offering all their support.

Thus the power of the nobility had been curbed and the emperor once more dominated the state but now the military was growing in power. Although Alexius had restored the army it became very powerful and soon its officers and generals started to dictate Roman policy. Increasingly Alexius saw this rapid rise in the power of the military aristocracy, which had by this point become the top dogs of the empire. Roman feudalism the ideology that had taken root also in Rome was stamped out now replaced by soldier’s farmers, commercial merchants and bankers who expanded trade opportunities, officers, generals, and intellectuals started to dominant the empire. Students and teachers alike were rediscovering many of the Greek works of Plato, Aristotle, and the likes as well as Roman works. With an increase in schools and expansion of government hundreds of new jobs were created. The former roman society had by 1095 virtually vanished.

The period from 1095-1578 would forever be known as the rise and fall of the military state. A time of vast expansion, internal civil was, coups, and instability would characterize this period of turmoil and expansion of the roman state.

[MAlexMatt]

Haven't actually read through the post yet, but I have to say I'm excited. Any Byzantine TL is welcome, and one that is decently well researched doubly so.

If you're looking for more generalized sources, I might suggest the Economic History of Byzantium, located here. It's a serious work, so there's a lot of material, but I've found nothing so far which is quite so capable of giving one an idea of the facts-on-the-ground, as it were, as this tome.

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Originally Posted by MAlexMatt

Haven't actually read through the post yet, but I have to say I'm excited. Any Byzantine TL is welcome, and one that is decently well researched doubly so.

If you're looking for more generalized sources, I might suggest the Economic History of Byzantium, located here. It's a serious work, so there's a lot of material, but I've found nothing so far which is quite so capable of giving one an idea of the facts-on-the-ground, as it were, as this tome.

Well im a bit uncertain due to the fact that I dont really know much about Hungary. Also I amm rather weak on the economic side and I am slightly doubtful on the complete change in society. But overall I hope to create a realizstic tl. My final doubts are on whether Venice had a strong enough army to challenge Byzantium. Or if the part about not listening to Venetian demands is ASB.

[MAlexMatt]

Originally Posted by Fredrick II Barbarossa

Well im a bit uncertain due to the fact that I dont really know much about Hungary. Also I amm rather weak on the economic side and I am slightly doubtful on the complete change in society. But overall I hope to create a realizstic tl. My final doubts are on whether Venice had a strong enough army to challenge Byzantium. Or if the part about not listening to Venetian demands is ASB.

Well, the first issue I see, having actually read your post, is that it bears significant similarities to the Carolingian system. That is, to say, the posts would one day become hereditary feudal posts in Western Europe began as administrative posts held at the sufferance of the Emperor, very similar to what you describe. Actually forestalling feudalism (which didn't actually arrive in Byzantium until after the Western conquest in 1204 -- what happened over the course of the 12th century was the consolidation of landholdings into the hands of fewer people, which might really have more to do with the on-going commercial revolution of the period than with the 'feudalisation' of the Empire*) is going to require more than just an administrative reform.

*that is, farmland was increasingly not just about providing for a family and, maybe, for the inhabitants of a nearby village, but instead for providing for the family, for a nearby town, and for a distant city. Increasing divisions of labor requires increasing economies of scale. Prior to the power revolution of early and middle modernity, that means increasing use of labor which doesn't necessarily have an ownership level interest in its usage.

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Originally Posted by MAlexMatt

Well, the first issue I see, having actually read your post, is that it bears significant similarities to the Carolingian system. That is, to say, the posts would one day become hereditary feudal posts in Western Europe began as administrative posts held at the sufferance of the Emperor, very similar to what you describe. Actually forestalling feudalism (which didn't actually arrive in Byzantium until after the Western conquest in 1204 -- what happened over the course of the 12th century was the consolidation of landholdings into the hands of fewer people, which might really have more to do with the on-going commercial revolution of the period than with the 'feudalisation' of the Empire*) is going to require more than just an administrative reform.

*that is, farmland was increasingly not just about providing for a family and, maybe, for the inhabitants of a nearby village, but instead for providing for the family, for a nearby town, and for a distant city. Increasing divisions of labor requires increasing economies of scale. Prior to the power revolution of early and middle modernity, that means increasing use of labor which doesn't necessarily have an ownership level interest in its usage.

I didnt say feudalism excactly I meant Pronoia which very similiar to feudalism i believe after all it was land grants and the people ruled it as fiefs and controlled the people on the land except it wasnt herditory but the people ruling were usually nobility..
But yes otherwise it will be concentrated to a few but by that point the empire wil develop a more modern economy. The acres of land is similiar to today. Eventually by the 1800s with growing population the development of apartments and industries will change this so called land grants but for now they will occur.
But yes you will see a large labor population later on.

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Alright here is another update. Enjoy

Chapter II: The conquest of Central Anatolia

By 1095 the military had increasingly grown in power and was soon at the forefront of roman foreign policy. Alexius had desperately tried to control them but all his attempts failed. They were clamoring for war and many wanted to conquer more land. Alexius tried telling the officers that they had to integrate the current area they controlled to which an officer replied “ Oh my most beloved emperor… you need not worry for integration after all those pathetic heathens are slaughtered and any who dare oppose us shall be murdered. To hell with them we promise you we will make you empire great.

In late 1095 Alexius decided to destroy the Turks once and for all. He realized that it would be more in his interest to secure the inner Anatolian regions rather than the more coastal ones due to the fact that they may provide effective barriers against any inroads into the Anatolian heartland. So instead of aiming for the Cillica which would open the way to Syria he ordered his armies to crush the sultanate of Iconium and rather than vassalizing it, simply annex it altogether. Thus a large army of 10000 soldiers mainly taken from the roman native forces soon marched into the mountainous regions of Anatolia.

Now peculiar events had taken place in Seljuk domains. With Toghrul and his son’s deaths there was no one to succeed to the Turkish Khanate. So many ambitious generals soon revolted and carved out their own territories from the once massive Seljuk Sultanate and soon fought among themselves for supremacy. One of these states was the Sultanate of Iconium lead by Kilij Arslan a relative of Toghrul. However even far worse enemies lay for the Romans aside from the Rumli Turks. The Danishmends of Sivas had soon grown powerful taking advantage of the weakened Seljuk sultanate to expand their own domain and power. They were soon becoming a major player in the Middle East. The stage seemed set for a conflict between the Romans and the Danishmends.

The reason Alexius attacked the inner regions of Anatolia was simple. Due to the most concentration of Turks in these areas, by taking them he would finally end the annoying Turkish raids and secure a defensible border in the east to act as a barrier to prevent the invasion of the more vulnerable coastal Anatolian territories. Plus in these hilly areas their were excellent pastures to allow horses to easily breed and reproduce, so with the Anatolian lands secure, the ERE would once again secure a supply of Anatolian horses to be mounted upon by themselves in greater numbers. It was also a way to gain more gold and money from the rich Turkic tribes in Anatolia to feed the growing imperial treasury. This coupled with ambition of the Anatolian officers and normal soldiers the ERE soldiers lead by Domestics Georgios Paleologos and Protostratior Nikephros Mellissanos advanced into the Anatolian hinterlands to once and for all eliminate the Turks who had plagued the land since the battle of Manzikert.

The Anatolian campaign of 1095-1098 was a four year campaign aimed at crushing the Turks once and for all by the ERE which had diverted most of its forces from the west to achieve this goal. The army was made up of Serbs, bulgars, Bosnians, Greeks, and other Balkan peoples.

It was known back in the western lands of the empire as the grand campaign known to all as the recovery of the “heartland”. It was during this period that the able Roman bureaucracy launched a massive flurry of propaganda for the war in posters, criers, and daily decrees that convinced many this war was a great war. Back in Constantinople many called it the “ Splendid little war” and most believed it would end by Christmas. Sadly they were very wrong.

When news of the roman treatment of the Turks reached the sultanates lands many of the Turkic tribes united behind Kilij Arslan and soon prepared to defend their homeland from these foreign infidels. Kilij Arslan was an astute and capable politician, statesman, and general who lead the Turkish forces against the “Greeks”. Alexius soon began to besiege Tarsus, which immediately fell to his hands after a bitter siege lasting for months. After taking Tarsus the roman troops marched for Ankyra the Seljuk capitol seizing many towns and cities along the way. The reason why Alexius did not attack Konya is unknown but most likely he knew that unless he decisively defeated the main Turkish force near Ankyra the war would simply continue on longer. Thus he believed that if he defeated Sultan Kilij and took Ancyra than Konya would capitulate. It would prove to be fatal strategic mistake. Meanwhile this bloody trek to Ancyra lasted for a little more than a year as the Turks launched a hit and run warfare by constantly whittling the roman forces and putting up stiff resistance. For every mile of land the Romans took there would be thousands of Turks who would fight back and soon the roman soldiers were forced to fight and kill for every mile of territory they took. This effective resistance soon lead to disaster for the Romans at a battle on the outskirts of Ankyra where the Roman forces of 3000 lead by Nikephros Meissanos were split apart form the main forces and torn to pieces by the main Turkish force. However the Romans countered with a crushing victory at the gates of Ankyra where Alexius Komnenos fought a fierce battle in 1097 between Sultan Kilij Arslan and his Turkish forces and the roman troops lead. The battle raged for days and finally outnumbered Kilij Arslan was slain and his Turkish forces were defeated due to superior Roman troop numbers and more capable officers, which Kilij lacked.


The Turkish loss at Ankyra as we now know was not due to “ God’s will” but rather that due to the leader dying and his vanguards being routed the Romans managed to seize victory at a heavy cost. Soon Ankyra was besieged and finally triumphant Roman forces captured it. Toghrul IV a son of Kilij fled to Konya the former capitol of the sultanate and soon he appealed to the danishmends for help. The danishmends; lead by Ghazi were all too willing to curb the expansion of the ERE and soon threw their support behind Toghrul and Ghazi himself assembled a vast Turkish army from al the various Anatolia tribes numbering some 18000 and marched for the defense of Konya.

When Alexius realized the Seljuk’s of Iconium wouldn’t sue for peace he turned his forces for Konya. At the great basin Konya Ovasi the Danishmends ambushed the Romans. The battle for Ovasi lasted for days. Ghazi had launched a full on assault on the marching roman troops. Alexius was shocked. He hadn’t expected that the Danishmends would intervene. It upset all his plans and he tried desperately to rally the troops but it was futile. He Danishends and their armies swept through the Roman army. All seemed lost until a reversal of fortunes occurred. Leading a triumphant charge Ghazi was suddenly slain by an arrow launched from a Vardatoi cavalrymen. To make matters worse lead by the brilliant Georgios Paleologos the roman vanguard successfully routed the soldiers on the danishmends eastern flank exposing a vital opening, which Alexius immediately seized upon. Alexius himself was said to have raised his bloody sword and proclaimed “ god has not forsaken us my noble comrades we shall fight and win the day to victory for we shall never surrender!!” Soon the Roman troops started fighting back shouting their own wart cries beating back the Turkish forces and finally the Danishmend armies were destroyed. 20000 people died those few days. 12000 Danishmend and Seljuk troops and 8000 Roman troops died. The basin lowed red with the blood of the dead troops.

After burying their fellow soldiers the roman troops began a systematic looting of the Turkish soldiers. The dead Turks bodies were looted of their valuables and soon after the army marched toward Konya. In August 1197 Konya fell after a harsh and bitter siege. With Konya fallen to the romans the sultanate of Iconium aka Rum had ceased to exist. Soon like before a systemic decimation of the Turks occurred in the areas a soldiers simply killed all the families living on the land who were Turks and lead to a massive depopulation of the area. Konya was ruined. A Turkish poet Muhammad described how “ Pour city Konya laid in ruins. The people are being massacred, man, woman, child, and elderly. These Romans care not for us. Our imams lie slain and our places of worship torched. All is lost. Soon thereafter in a quick campaign lasting till 1198 the Danishmends were finally destroyed with the seizing of Amasia and Sivas after a fierce Roman assault.

At last by February of 1098 the Romans had after a hard fought war finally secured central Anatolia. All that remained was the cillica.

Alexius soon planned to campaign here when an event of great importance occurred upsetting his entire plan. In 1198 after hearing news about the plight of Jerusalem and an increased religious fervor the pope of Rome Urban had called for a large council at Clermont where he declared that a righteous crusade would be fought against the heathens. A few years before the Grande campaign Alexius had asked for some mercenaries form Europe from Urban who used the situation to call for this holy war. It was also a way for the spreading of Roman Catholicism to the east. All of Europe’s chivalrous knights from Raymond to Conrad pledged their support for this crusade. The King of France and the HRE too participated in this great crusade. Many peasants to escape crushing poverty back home joined the cause. This large force soon traveled by sea and approached roman territorial waters with support from Venice.

Alexius was stunned. He hadn’t expected this. His careful plan of retaking Cillica had gone down he drain. He didn’t expect that the mercenaries he asked for would be this large army. To make matters worse the roman army was exhausted from all its fighting with the Turks. The resources had been strained on the empire due to costly battles. Alexius however decided to change the situation to his favor.

So one of the most pivotal eras of the ERE history began that would forever change the face of the known world. The era was known simply as the crusades.

[Reichenfaust]

Ok this is an awesome tl, and I definitely am hooked on it

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Originally Posted by Reichenfaust

Ok this is an awesome tl, and I definitely am hooked on it

Thanks... and just wait till you see what occurs in the coming updates... lets just say that eventually you will have an half Moorish emperor....

[Reichenfaust]

Originally Posted by Fredrick II Barbarossa

Thanks... and just wait till you see what occurs in the coming updates... lets just say that eventually you will have an half Moorish emperor....

So north Africa and egypt are going to be reclaimed? As well will the empire control the levant?

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Originally Posted by Reichenfaust

So north Africa and egypt are going to be reclaimed? As well will the empire control the levant?

No way is that gonna happen in a couple decades no centuries its ASB. THis is not a wank. lets just say it deals with a slave( Aka the eastern slave trade was quite prominent in contantinople and the arabic world) converts to orthdox and becomes extremly close to the royal family. That is all I will let out for now...

[WeisSaul]

So I'm guessing this empire's going to be around the size of Basil's?

Sicily, South Italy, Europe to the Carpathians, Anatolia, Crimea, the South Caucuses, Cyprus, Malta, Pontus, and the Levant down to Tripoli. That's really all the BE ever really needed in my opinion to be secure and wealthy. That and a few vassals/satellite states/protectorates like Aleppo.

North Africa and Palestine are too difficult to hold in my opinion.

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Originally Posted by WeisSaul

So I'm guessing this empire's going to be around the size of Basil's?

Sicily, South Italy, Europe to the Carpathians, Anatolia, Crimea, the South Caucuses, Cyprus, Malta, and the Levant down to Tripoli. That's really all the BE ever really needed in my opinion to be secure and wealthy. That and a few vassals/satellite states/protectorates like Aleppo.

Basically. Just wondering would it be too asb to include Jerusalum as well?
Other than that taking egypt is very unlikely. You have a way too large of a muslim population and given all the enemies the romans have maintaining a grip their is difficult not to mention the logistical nightmare it would be.
Same with North Africa but even worse and harder to take than egypt and it would make the emperor come into conflict with Spain and France as well as causing him to lose money defending the area and putting down revolts.

Also would it be too asb if the empire eventually had colonies in the Americas?

If so The Empire really will remain Basil's size till the industrial revolution of the 19th century from when it will start to seriously create its own colonial empire. Other than that it may expand in the colonial era aka 1600s but still wont have that large of an empire. For now though it is asb and nigh impossible for the byzantines to realistically take egypt let alone North Africa.

[WeisSaul]

Originally Posted by Fredrick II Barbarossa

Basically. Just wondering would it be too asb to include Jerusalum as well?
Other than that taking egypt is very unlikely. You have a way too large of a muslim population and given all the enemies the romans have maintaining a grip their is difficult not to mention the logistical nightmare it would be.
Same with North Africa but even worse and harder to take than egypt and it would make the emperor come into conflict with Spain and France as well as causing him to lose money defending the area and putting down revolts.

Also would it be too asb if the empire eventually had colonies in the Americas?

If so The Empire really will remain Basil's size till the industrial revolution of the 19th century from when it will start to seriously create its own colonial empire. Other than that it may expand in the colonial era aka 1600s but still wont have that large of an empire. For now though it is asb and nigh impossible for the byzantines to realistically take egypt let alone North Africa.

Well if you go down to the Golan you have a buffer and a bottleneck that's hard to get past. Meanwhile Jerusalem is a city in the middle of the Desert and as such is incredibly hard to defend and supply without a considerable amount of buffer. Supplying is difficult, but maintaining a siege against a city in the middle of the desert is pretty difficult too. Plus taking Jerusalem, the third holiest city in Islam, would throw the whole Muslim world into a frenzy.

North Africa as a whole is ASB. If you want a few fortress port cities that's another thing. Cyrene, being of Greek descent and surrounded by hills, seems like a good place to take. It's pretty good for the Greek nationalist legacy that was starting to pop up as the Byzantine Empire was becoming more and more Greek centered as its periphery was slowly being taken away. The Athens of Africa returning to Byzantine Greek hands, that'll be popular.

The Americas were discovered because the west wasn't able to trade with the far east because the Ottoman Muslims cut them off. Without the west being cut off the West isn't exploring. If the Byzantines were to fall into such a bad relationship with the Catholic/Protestant world that it cut them off from the east entirely, or Islam blocked off India some other way, the age of exploration could still happen. The only way that Europe will remain choked off is if Muslim Egypt stops any trade between the Med and the Red sea, and Safavid Persia takes all of Mesopotamia, and then decides that the Christians aren't getting squat from India.

I think the Byzantines would go the way of the Swedes and Poles when it comes to colonization of the Americas: They get something small at first and then somebody else will just take it away from them.

The Byzantines will be more Indian Ocean oriented if anything. I'm thinking something along the lines of Zanzibar being taken away from Oman. They'll have serious competition from the Portuguese, Dutch, and later British and French in the Indian Ocean though, and they probably won't be able to compete with them. The Byzantines will probably strengthen ties with the Orthodox Ethiopians though, and try to establish ports at Aden and Djibouti.

If the Byzantines get into the Indian Ocean too early though (before 1433), they'll have Ming China to deal with. If they go into the Indian Ocean by the dawn of the 16th century, Portugal will have arrived.

[MNP]

Westerners will still explore, it'll just be much slower.

[CandyDragon]

This is well done! Good job, I'll be reading with great interest.

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Originally Posted by WeisSaul

Well if you go down to the Golan you have a buffer and a bottleneck that's hard to get past. Meanwhile Jerusalem is a city in the middle of the Desert and as such is incredibly hard to defend and supply without a considerable amount of buffer. Supplying is difficult, but maintaining a siege against a city in the middle of the desert is pretty difficult too. Plus taking Jerusalem, the third holiest city in Islam, would throw the whole Muslim world into a frenzy.

North Africa as a whole is ASB. If you want a few fortress port cities that's another thing. Cyrene, being of Greek descent and surrounded by hills, seems like a good place to take. It's pretty good for the Greek nationalist legacy that was starting to pop up as the Byzantine Empire was becoming more and more Greek centered as its periphery was slowly being taken away. The Athens of Africa returning to Byzantine Greek hands, that'll be popular.

The Americas were discovered because the west wasn't able to trade with the far east because the Ottoman Muslims cut them off. Without the west being cut off the West isn't exploring. If the Byzantines were to fall into such a bad relationship with the Catholic/Protestant world that it cut them off from the east entirely, or Islam blocked off India some other way, the age of exploration could still happen. The only way that Europe will remain choked off is if Muslim Egypt stops any trade between the Med and the Red sea, and Safavid Persia takes all of Mesopotamia, and then decides that the Christians aren't getting squat from India.

I think the Byzantines would go the way of the Swedes and Poles when it comes to colonization of the Americas: They get something small at first and then somebody else will just take it away from them.

The Byzantines will be more Indian Ocean oriented if anything. I'm thinking something along the lines of Zanzibar being taken away from Oman. They'll have serious competition from the Portuguese, Dutch, and later British and French in the Indian Ocean though, and they probably won't be able to compete with them. The Byzantines will probably strengthen ties with the Orthodox Ethiopians though, and try to establish ports at Aden and Djibouti.

If the Byzantines get into the Indian Ocean too early though (before 1433), they'll have Ming China to deal with. If they go into the Indian Ocean by the dawn of the 16th century, Portugal will have arrived.

Yeah I agree with you North Africa is too asb.

About Jerusalum I guess it is really difficult to take. Alright then how about the roman advance stops at acre. Is that more plausable?

About North Africa I agree completely thanks for reassuring me that its ASB.

Other than that I have a long way too go before we get to Industrialization in the 1800s so I think its better just to discuss present period.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Fredrick II Barbarossa

Suddenly things changed when in early 1082 the HRE once more attacked Hungary, Ladislav appealed to the pope but the pope refused to act and let the HRE invade Hungary. Ladislav was angered and suddenly at the battle of pecs the imperial armies crushed his forces. At this perilous moment Alexius sent envoys to Ladislav with an agreement. Hungary had been betrayed by the catholic church which supported the HRE, so if Ladislav converted to Orthodox Christianity than the Hungarian church would not only be raised to an autonomous position but also he would receive roman support. Ladislav realized that these were reasonable demands and angry with the pope who didn’t act he soon agreed to the roman terms. Soon Alexius lead an army of some 10000 into Hungary, which proved crucial. With Ladislav regrouping the Hungarian forces the combined Hungaro-Roman armies inflicted a crushing defeat on Imperial forces. Soon the HRE sued for peace and the treaty of pecs was signed restoring status quo. On February 4th 1082 Ladislav converted to Orthodox Christianity and proclaimed it to be the true faith claiming that he had been betrayed by the catholic west, he was supported by the cardinal of Hungary who was altogether happy to become a patriarch of the Hungarian orthodox church soon he threw his support behind Ladislav. Plus due to the heroic feats of the Romans, many of the commoners soon consented and soon Catholicism was soon out of favor in Hungary, which was now turning into an orthodox state. The pope of Rome was simply stunned and it was said never forgave himself for doing something so stupid.

Sorry I'm commenting so late. But here goes.

First, and foremost, "cardinal of Hungary" is not what you want for so many reasons. 1) Cardinals are the nominal priests of some 70ish specific churches in Rome. Today, of course, it's a dignity given to prominent bishops around the world. Not then. 2) Someone being Cardinal, even today, gives them absolutely no official role in the local church. Influence? sure

So what DO you want?

Originally Posted by http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07547a.htm

After the return of Abbot Astricus, Stephen was crowned King of Hungary with the crown sent by the pope at Gran, 17 August, 1001. In settling the organization of the Church he placed at its head the Archdiocese of Gran, giving it as suffragans, Györ (Raab), Veszprém, Pécs (Fünfkirchen), Vácz (Waitzen), and Eger. About 1010 he founded a second archdiocese, that of Kalocsa, which had as suffragans the Dioceses of Bihar, Transylvania, and Marosvár (later Csanád) which was founded in 1038. In this way the land was divided into ten dioceses, the Archdiocese of Gran being the metropolitan.

bolding added. Metropolitan is what you're looking for.
This would actually work with the Orthodox, too, as they use the same term in roughly the same context. National "Patriarch"s as we're used to today, don't happen in the Orthodox church until later.

Interesting that this is SAINT Ladislaus, iOTL, sainted for his piety and adherence to Rome. This actually looks plausible, though.

Originally Posted by ibid

The internal disorders during the reigns of King Solomon (1064-74) and King Géza I (1074-77) did great damage to the Christian Faith; ecclesiastical discipline decayed, and many abuses crept into the Church.

so a breakdown in the nascent Catholic system in Hungary was iOTL arrested and reversed by Ladislaus. iTTL, if he's pushing towards Orthodoxy, he might be able to make that change, which would have been far more difficult if the Church had had deep roots.

[Reichenfaust]

I still think Egypt is the key to the Empire remaining a great, or even superpower into the 2nd millenium. As well you will need some hunnic influence and a powerful-almost ASB type army to crush the mongols when they come a hunting hearing stories of cities of majesty and wealth that are "ripe for conquest" from the turkic khanates. If, eventually, the Empire can assert control over Egypt, Ukraine, and maybe the Caucasus without getting over-extended, that would be an awesome Byzantium....

Thats my honest opinion, and is possible with the practical "Super-Prussia" you've made the Byzantiums...

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Sorry I'm commenting so late. But here goes.

First, and foremost, "cardinal of Hungary" is not what you want for so many reasons. 1) Cardinals are the nominal priests of some 70ish specific churches in Rome. Today, of course, it's a dignity given to prominent bishops around the world. Not then. 2) Someone being Cardinal, even today, gives them absolutely no official role in the local church. Influence? sure

So what DO you want?


bolding added. Metropolitan is what you're looking for.
This would actually work with the Orthodox, too, as they use the same term in roughly the same context. National "Patriarch"s as we're used to today, don't happen in the Orthodox church until later.

Interesting that this is SAINT Ladislaus, iOTL, sainted for his piety and adherence to Rome. This actually looks plausible, though.


so a breakdown in the nascent Catholic system in Hungary was iOTL arrested and reversed by Ladislaus. iTTL, if he's pushing towards Orthodoxy, he might be able to make that change, which would have been far more difficult if the Church had had deep roots.

I see so basically the metropolitan should be in place of the cardinal ok.
Yeah Ladislaus is pushing toward orthodoxy mainly because it is only the byzantines willing to help him out against the HRE while the church doesnt really do anything to help him. SO he has really no choice but turn to powerful byzantium for help in stopping the oncoming HRE invasion.

Also didnt the catholic church recently gain influence in Hungary?

ALso to answer you question reich... Egypt will belong to the empire but not till the 1800s and then too as a colonial province.

[Direwolf22]

Enjoying your timeline so far but I must say it seems alternatehistory.com has a massive boner for the Byzantine Empire. Anyway good work.