The Franco-Japanese war

[Gunner]

Nicely done!

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Shevek23

Sometime early in the 19th Century, I believe around the 1830s, the French took control of Cochin China. Gradually they expanded their control to Annam and Tonkin, and we've been told here how they attacked the Thais and wrested Laos from them.

From Wiki

From 1859 to 1867, French troops expanded their control over all six provinces on the Mekong delta and formed a colony known as Cochinchina.

It looks like France didn't actually gain control of anything in Indochina until 1859.

[mcdo]

Originally Posted by Grand Prince Paul II.

Vive la Marine nationale de la France.
The sooner they stop the advance of the Imperial Japanese armed forces and the more they weaken them, the better it is for everyone (in the long run, at least).

How do you figure?
Assuming the Empire of Japan is victorious, it may well me willing to allow an independent Indochina. They simply need to prevent its use as a potential French base for striking at Japan. It seems to me that at this time, the Japanese will be more concerned with expanding their influence over China--which, prior to WW1, the were worried about being locked out of--to compete with the European powers. Getting concessions or outright territory on Viet Nam is less important. Although it would greatly expand the Japanese naval perimeter,many may feel it is a bridge too far at present.

Even if Japan is so victorious as to allow them to become the new colonial master of the region, I am not sure that would be worse for the colonized peoples. The only colony Japan administers at this time is Taiwan, and in all honesty I think the Taiwanese benefited much more from Japanese colonial rule than any people ever benefited from French administration. Korea, of course, is a different story, but Indochina is not Korea. The Japanese may well be inclined to take a more "hands off" approach to rule in SE Asia, simply because of its greater distance and greater cultural difference. All this is assuming, of course, that Japan even can colonize and administer the region. I would not be surprised if instead the war ended with the territory being divided between Siam and Britain, with only small naval bases carved out for Japan.

All in all, I fail to see why a French victory would necessarily be better for anyone except the French themselves.

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

Originally Posted by mcdo

How do you figure?

Because I expect the Japanese Empire to turn into the monster we all known as long as its military remains outside of the effective control of a moderating civilian government and enjoyed a chain of outright victories against major nations in the Far East.

Originally Posted by mcdo

It seems to me that at this time, the Japanese will be more concerned with expanding their influence over China--which, prior to WW1, the were worried about being locked out of--to compete with the European powers.

Imperial paranoia.
Even before the Russo-Japanese War, Japan was able to secure Fujian, the Chinese province on the other side of Taiwan Strait as part of the informal part of the Japanese Empire and bridgehead in continental China.
Afterwards, they added southern Manchuria.

[mcdo]

Originally Posted by Grand Prince Paul II.

Because I expect the Japanese Empire to turn into the monster we all known as long as its military remains outside of the effective control of a moderating civilian government and enjoyed a chain of outright victories against major nations in the Far East.

Imperial paranoia.
Even before the Russo-Japanese War, Japan was able to secure Fujian, the Chinese province on the other side of Taiwan Strait as part of the informal part of the Japanese Empire and bridgehead in continental China.
Afterwards, they added southern Manchuria.

You can't say that it is bad for the world for the Japanese Empire to expand in 1904 because of what the Japanese Empire did in the 1930's. That's like saying that it would be bad for the German Empire to win WW1 because it might embolden the Nazis. While it is true that the Japanese military was not wholly under the control of the civilian government at this time, the military was just one power block among many. Before Yamagata Aritomo got his way in the 1910's, the military could not even bring down a government. There is no straight line between this period and the domination of the militarists in the 1930's. There is certainly no reason to think any PoD in 1904 will make it more or less likely for democracy to fail 25 years later.

[Shevek23]

OTL, the Japanese certainly were emboldened by their successes in China (despite the rising costs, as the Chinese never stopped resisting them, though I gather they offered to--well, Chiang Kai Shek did anyway--on certain terms the Japanese rejected) and specifically this enhanced the power of militarists and weakened the political position of liberals. In part this was because the liberals weren't all that liberal and the working classes believed the Army in particular was their champion.

However there were other factors involved in the evolution of the fanatical political orientation. For instance, the USA became more hostile to Japan, out of concern for the potential threat the Japanese posed to American possessions in the Pacific, and it's my vague impression as much out of American ambitions to achieve hegemony over China and the Far East in general, which the Japanese were seen as "poaching" on. The former might be addressed by treaties, if the Japanese keep them, and the latter--well, that's just imperialism versus imperialism.

I think it's too early to assume that any and all Japanese success must lead inexorably to a militaristic quasi-fascism.

In particular here, I'm no war buff and I don't know how to reckon the relative strengths of the Japanese versus the French, but the Japanese don't look all that strong. It's my impression they have to be counting on getting some serious help from the Thais (who I should, in this period, be calling the Siamese I guess) and the Vietnamese; I've proposed a scenario where they need to depend on the Cambodians too, because otherwise I don't see how the Siamese can arrive in southern Vietnam to bother the French there--they can bother the French in Cambodia, but that's not how sharlin described the war plan, so they need some kind of shortcut through Cambodia and the only one I see is to capitalize on Cambodian dissent.

So after the war, the Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Thais all have to be respected, or the Japanese will be seen as just another bunch of imperialists. To be sure, that sort of sharp dealing might enhance their reputation as people to be respected (i.e. feared!) in European circles; trying to instead broker a standing alliance of third-world powers might actually alienate Europeans more. The British for instance will be put off because the examples of liberating Vietnam and Cambodia and shoring up Siamese status (looking at maps in links I provided, for instance, the British OTL took more land from Siam some years after this timeline's war, down on the Malay peninsula; such ambitions will be awkward if Japan is still allied to Britain and Siam to Japan) are an obvious threat to their empire in Burma and Malaysia.

But there are other possibilities besides British alliance; if the Japanese focus on diplomatic hegemony and herding the cats of Southeast Asia into a coordinated self-development policy and collective defense, one might call it an East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere what if they can persuade Americans they too can profitably partner in it? Indirect rule with a light hand plays into American self-image as a non-imperial power, and the American model of penetrating China via an "Open Door" that amounts to favoring whichever overseas Western power can get there with the most investment funds--which used to be the British but increasingly is the USA.

Japan could play off the Americans against the British and wind up buying high tech from both while continuing to bootstrap her own industry. If the benefits of indirect leadership in SE Asia pay off enough, the model of outright imperial conquest might fall out of favor. Conceivably the dominant European powers in the region (if the French are knocked out, that's the British and Dutch, the Germans are barely present) might have to liberalize their own colonial possessions and witness the rise of native industrialists; they won't like that as they are seen as competitive with colonial industrialists but if they are forced to tolerate it to keep political instability in bounds, they might find themselves ahead of OTL due to rising markets they still control. Markets the Japanese can trade with.

The Japanese home islands have practically no resources to speak of. Just barely enough arable land to sort of feed themselves, with a lot of supplements from fishing. No coal, no iron, no oil, no nothing. OTL in a world of separate colonial spheres carved out by brute force and jealously held by the respective colonial powers, they had good reason to fear being choked off. If they can establish more multilateral norms here and trade for a share of the various empires's goods, they won't feel as driven to all-or-nothing imperial conquest. On paper, in lofty rhetoric, the USA stood for that kind of openness too. In reality this generation in particular was going for something quite different.

The materials aren't all that promising to be sure. In addition to Japan's weak liberal tradition, in this war they are propping up specifically reactionary and historically greedy elements in Siam, and perhaps Vietnam and Cambodia too--their respective royal houses to be exact. Nowhere is there a well-developed populist, parliamentary, liberal constituency, nor even a radical socialist alternative to counterbalance the royalty and arrive at a sort of compromise nationalism by that route either.

If the Japanese do wind up turning on their royal partner/clients and swallowing up some or all of Indochina into yet another resentable foreign colonial hegemony--well, that will actually make them look more normal and "reasonable" to Europeans and the current generation of "hard-headed" American imperialists. Also threatening; if they are based in Southeast Asia they will be immediately threatening British, Dutch, and American holdings nearby, while also continuing to antagonize the Russians in Korea and northern China generally. They might quickly find themselves at a dead end diplomatically.

And this might serve to steer them away from the expansionist path they took OTL, if they are scrambling to defend what they've got they might not dare to push against China. They might be forced, after betraying the royal families of former Indochina, to give concessions to the people there instead, to stabilize their hold.

It really doesn't come down to "Japanese are monsters determined to impose an inhuman empire and must be stopped!" The mess is not entirely of their making; OTL I don't think the Western powers can say with a straight face that they were worse than us. This is a different roll of the dice and Japan might come out of it better off, and so might other people.

Just how it works out depends first of all on who wins this immediate war. If it's the French, the Japanese are going to be slapped down hard. (But they might seem all the better and safer customers for post-war rearmament purchases, unless a severe treaty compels them to refrain from rebuilding. However losing to the French they might lose more than the new territories they are bidding for, they might have to give up Taiwan, Korea, or both for instance, and given a lack of resources they will probably spiral down.) If it's the Japanese we might be on an even earlier tailspin into militarist madness, or Japan might go in a direction much more compatible with their post-war (OTL) pacifist mentality. Actually that seems unlikely given that this was largely imposed by the American occupation, but perhaps a sort of judicious compromise that avoids the extremes of militarism is in the cards?

[mcdo]

Very good analysis, Shevek. One small thing I noticed, though:

Originally Posted by Shevek23

However losing to the French they might lose more than the new territories they are bidding for, they might have to give up Taiwan, Korea, or both for instance, and given a lack of resources they will probably spiral down.)

Japan doesn't have Korea here. They gained it as a result of the Russo-Japanese War. Here, it is probably still a quasi-independent country that serves as a arena for competition for influence between Russia, Japan, and even China.

[DD951]

Originally Posted by mcdo

Japan doesn't have Korea here. They gained it as a result of the Russo-Japanese War. Here, it is probably still a quasi-independent country that serves as a arena for competition for influence between Russia, Japan, and even China.

OP said Korea was as pre-OTL RJ war, which was pretty much what you said, with Russia & Japan competing for influence there & in Manchuria, though China pretty much got kicked out of Korea in favor of Japan in the wake of the Sino-Japanese war.

What kicked off the RJ war was that Russia, partly for internal reasons, & partly for external aggrandizement insisted annexing both Korea & Manchuria, ignoring a Japanese offer to butt out of Manchuria & allow the Russians to do what they wanted there, in exchange for the Russians showing the same courtesy in Korea. As the Japanese government believed that Korea in the hands of a hostile power was an intolerable security threat, & that the relative balance of power would soon shift too far in favor of the Russians, they essentially felt backed into a corner & that they had to attack in the hopes of getting a favorable result by rolling the dice on the battlefield while they still could. ITTL, for whatever reason, the Russians have apparently been less belligerent & aggressive in handling the situation, & Korea's still up in the air.

Another question- is there anyone sufficiently familiar with Vietnamese history reading the thread to know what the state of anti-French Vietnamese nationalists are at this point- reason I'm asking is because OTL, there were very strong links between Japan & Vietnamese nationalist groups between the end of the RJ war & WW2, & I was wondering if there was anything along these lines that the Japanese might be able to exploit TTL.

[sharlin]

I will admit that my knowledge of the politics of the region are very limited, next to non existant, which will limit my writing on the behind the scenes action that isn't naval or ground based, but I will do my best.

[mcdo]

Originally Posted by sharlin

I will admit that my knowledge of the politics of the region are very limited, next to non existent, which will limit my writing on the behind the scenes action that isn't naval or ground based, but I will do my best.

Don't worry about it; it's been great so far. Besides, if people could only write TLs when they knew every aspect of the era they used for the setting, no one would be able to write any TLs at all.

[Shaby]

Sharlin, your story is excellent so far. Just can't wait till the ground action starts. I hope you continue this timeline so that we see the version of WWI here. Way I see it it should play a lot differently.

@Shevek23 Those are some astute observations you made. At the beginning of Meiji era Japan might very well go for this, for lack of better word, liberal empire. This development in turn butterflies a lot of 20th century history away.

[sharlin]

Fort Bayard - The Siege begins.

The Canon de 75 modele 1898 was a modern military wonder, the first light artillery piece in the world that had a recoil system like a naval gun, a hydro-pneumatic recoil that kept its wheels and tail where they were when it fired instead of having to be re-positioned and re-sighted. This combined with its light, easy to handle shell gave the gun a ferocious rate of fire that with a good crew could exceed 30 rounds per minute.

Facing the oncoming Japanese forces was one reinforced battery of guns with eighteen guns in total as well as the Tonkinese Rifle regiment and the Foreign Legion troops as the 'backbone', more troops could not be spared from the city but they were occupying superb defensive ground a sharply rising hill overlooking one of the main routes to the port town. Once the naval bombardment had started the French Commander, Brigade General Corel had ordered defensive positions to be dug on the outskirts of the town to protect it against a landward attack.

This in itself had been a challenge, using not only his troops but masses of Chinese labourers to dig shell pits and simple trenches. He doubted he had the men to face the Japanese in an open battle, but a defensive battle always favoured the defender in terms of casualties, if he could bleed and stop the Japanese forces then he could buy time for relief to arrive.

The Japanese forces once ashore had spent three days organising their forces, unloading supplies and equipment as well as digging defences round their camps ashore and they were facing their own problems. The sheer distances involved and the lack of shipping meant that the Imperial Japanese Army could not send the full strength of its forces without seriously straining the merchant marine upon which the Home Islands so heavily depended. So they sent what they could with the promise of more reinforcements once the shipping was available.

It took three days to unload and organise the 9500 men as well as the heavy mortars and light artillery pieces to be used in the siege, on the fourth day, two days after the Chin-en had been torpedoed and sunk the massed Japanese troops began to advance.

Outlaying villages and settlements were taken with no losses, they had been abandoned by their residents and for the most part were intact and used as welcome shelter by the troops. The first battles were between French outposts that had been established as 'trip wires' to alert them of the Japanese approach. Most of the French troops put up some resistance and then withdrew as per their orders but other chose to stay and fight, often to the bloody end.

But still the Japanese came on.

Private Thanh leaned against the shallow embankment of mud at the top of the trench he and his fellow Tonkinese Rifle's troops occupied looking down one of the hills which lay beyond Fort Bayard. He adjusted his bamboo hat, thankful for his loose fitting blue/black leggings and top, not envying the French troops he had seen with their close fitting very smart but no doubt warm colonial uniforms.
His company commander a Frenchman called Jean was walking up and down the trench talking to his men in both French and rather good Vietnamese, a vital aspect when placed in command of Colonial troops.

"Remember! Aim low, we're firing downhill so people tend to aim high, don't! Aim low, keep calm and keep firing. We will stop them here, and where ever the Japanese may be. Think of the civilians in the town, think of your honour!"

The man next to Thanh grinned. "Honour...is that all he can think about? I'm thinking about the fact that I need to go to the toilet..."
Both Vietnamese axillaries chuckled "Hush he'll hear you and you'll be on fatigues..."
"Better cleaning the kitchen than here eh?"
"Good point..."


Again both men grinned broadly under their bamboo hats. Neither wanted to be here but it was their job, the Tonkinese Rifles were not drafted or forcibly conscripted, far from it, they had all volunteered. The French treated them well, fed and paid them far more than they could earn honestly in most cases. The life was hard, but so was the life of any Infantryman in any army.




1)


The Japanese assault when it came was a series of probing attacks to find the French defences and the an attempt to punch through them. The 75's opened fire at their maximum range of 5 miles, the light guns barking out rounds like it was going out of fashion the constant loud CRACK of their firing filling the air.
The ground shook as Japanese artillery returned fire but it could not match the 75's rate of fire but the Japanese had numbers on their side and despite the mauling from the artillery they came on into the teeth of the French defences.

"Company! Stand to!"
At that shouted command the two hundred men in Private Thanh's company stood, aiming their heavy rifles down at the Japanese troops who were darting forwards, using what cover their was, firing up the hill with rifle and maxim guns, the heavy rounds lashing the defensive lines.
"At three hundred meters...FIRE!"

Private Thanh's rifle bucked in his arms with a loud CRACK and he quickly operated the bolt, took aim and fired again and again and again, only stopping to load eight more rounds into his Lebel 1886 rifle and start the whole process again.

The air was filled with gunfire, the deep thud of artillery shells landing close, the rattle of machine gun and Gatling gun fire and the screams of wounded men. One artillery shell landed less than forty meters away in the trench, obliterating five men, wounding ten others. The French brought their artillery in closer, the shells landing short of the defensive trenches and starting to move or 'walk' down the hill towards the Japanese troops. The forward trenches were a seething cauldron of fighting men, the Japanese assault troops charging with bayonet's fixed were being held by the Foreign Legion troops in the front line, but only just.



2)

For the young Vietnamese rifleman the experience was numbing, before joining up the loudest nose he'd ever heard was the lowing of cows or the blacksmiths, the rifle was loud but this, it was numbing, totally numbing, a horrific experience that seemed to go on and on when the battle itself lasted little more than a hour.
Realising that throwing men at the French defences was futile and they would need to be worn down the Japanese withdrew in good order, taking their wounded with them having suffered roughly 600 casualties, causing 400 in return.

Both sides had learned things from what was little more than a large skirmish, and both sides knew that the battles to come were not going to be easy or quick.


1) Exhausted Tonkinese Rifles troops after the battle.
2) The famous French 75mm cannon, the premier light artillery piece of the Franco-Japanese War and the Great War of 1916-1919, not replaced until the late 1930s but still used in French territories as well as fortifications along the German and Belgian borders.

[mcdo]

Originally Posted by sharlin

Fort Boyard - The Siege begins.

Good update, Sharlin. It gives a taste of the combat to come.
However, would it be possible for you to resize the pictures? They make it so that the text doesn't wrap at the edge of the screen, and it's really hard to read that way.

[Awilla the Hun]

Interesting timeline, but an immature question coming up: was it really called Fort Boyard, like the TV game show?

For writing advice, I'd suggest not chaining lots of buts together. It drags the sentence out unneccessarily.

[sharlin]

There really was a Fort Boyard Its now a Chinese town

*edit* Its actually fort Bayard

[Gunner]

"darting forwards, using what cover their was, "

The IJA was still using close order tactics at this time, ie, shoulder to shoulder. It wasnt until well into the RJW that they began to recognise the need to change to more open order assaults.

[sharlin]

Ahh didn't know that, i'm just taking my training from when I was in the army into account.

[sharlin]

A Royal (Navy) Interlude

The large office was filled with a battling mixture of pipe and cigar smoke as a dozen men of differing ranks and professions discussed the future that was slowly taking shape before them. Spread across a large oak table was paper with designs, notes annotations, deletions, suggestions, quotes, points, memos and more. But slowly consensus were reached, ideas became agreements and the future was taking shape.

"So we are agreed Gentlemen, Turbine's as propulsion regardless of it being a newly developed form of propulsion." The first speaker was a man at the peak of his power in Naval circles, a man who had joined the navy as he said 'friendless and pennyless' and now was responsible for the transformation of the Royal Navy at almost every level, a man who had nearly died of maleria and who had charmed the late queen in his youth and was a confidant of the King. He navigated the halls of the Admiralty and Politics like a rampaging bull, driving through his reforms through sheer willpower and brute force.

"Yes First Lord, if we build these ships with the current engines they will be obsolete within five years, the Cuanard line is building two turbine powered vessels and everything we've seen and tested of Parson's engines show they are more efficient, reliable and powerful than any planned expansion engine." This speaker was an older gentleman who occupied the esteemed role of the Director of Naval Construction.

Other Officers represented the various branches of the Royal Navy, Gunnery and Engineering being the most represented although the Navy's 'messiah' of Gunnery was currently in the Far East his reports were on the table or in their hands.

"With the hull design and with Mr Parson's engines should be in theory capable of reaching 21 knots, but of course tests will be run at Haslar to verify this and adjustments made as needed and of course as per your requests" The DNC continued, puffing contentedly on his pipe as the First Lord smiled at him.

"Sir, if I may..." This speaker was a younger man, newly promoted into his rank a the Director of Naval Ordinance, mild mannered and popular with his men the DNO waited for a nod from the first lord.

"Go ahead John"

"Sir, your request for frontal fire..I have been discussing this with Mr Watts and my colleagues and we have reached a consensus regarding not only this design but that of the large armoured cruisers too."

The First Lords eyes narrowed slightly and there was a noticable tightning of his lips. He was not use to having someone try to change his mind when it was already made. There was a few glances from the other officers as the DNO withstood the full scrutiny of his First Lord's gaze.

"Please go on, but you know my thoughts on the matter."

The DNO chuckled softly. "Yes Sir, you did threaten to resign at one point last week.."

"I may still do so.."


1)

The DNO gestured to the plans spread over the table, choosing the one that was most popular and was being used as the main design. "We and I feel that if we remove the fifth turret and move all the turrets inboard along the centerline weight will be saved as well as space and thus money and time, and weight saved can be applied to the armoured belt and internal works without raising the beam of draught severly. The Americans and French have carried out tests on turrets firing over one another and their tests and our own investigations show that the so called 'superfiring' arrangement is viable."

"I have to agree with the Admiral, whilst the blast of a 12 inch rifle will be formidable we can move the sighting hoods forwards or mount telescopes, further forwards in the turret thus reducing the blast effects on the lower turrets gunnery officer and those inside." The DNC added, pulling his pipe from his mouth. The First Lord also noticed that there were nods of agreement from other men in the room.


2)

"How long would a redesign of the turrets take?" They all knew the First Lord wanted this ship laid down fast.
"Flattening the turret roof and adjusting the fittings.." The DNC did a few calculations, muttering quietly to himself as he did so. "Perhaps a month, but we can still use the turrets from the Nelson and Agamemnon and other mountings can be adjusted in the factory."

"And regarding the large armoured cruisers, we again recommend centerline fire but if we may be so bold..remove one turret and use the weight on extra armour protection."

"Speed is armour for those vessels, they will be able to run from anything they can't fight."

"True First Lord but it stands to reason that other nations may build contemparies to them and possibly build them with thicker armour which would put our vessels at a disadvantage."

"You're refering to the Germans, they do build ships with weaker guns but thick hides."

"Yes First Lord and they do build fine vessels, a German or possibly French equivalent could be a threat if our ships have less armour."

"I know that..Mr Watts, your thoughts please and I know that John has been speaking with you about this."

Philip Watts smiled, took a puff on his pipe as he shuffled through the plans on the table before he found the one he wanted. "I will admit that Mr Jellicoe approached me regarding this and I have prepared a reply."
He cleared his throat, ignoring the glare from the First Lord.
"By removing one turret and associated ammunition and sundry items we will save enough to have a nine inch thick belt without affecting speed, size or range as well as 11 inch faces for the turrets."

"These ships are designed for the chase, even with the turrets centerlined you will only have four guns ahead and two astern."

"First Lord I must emphasise that a six gun ahead shoot will only be available on very limited azimuths and with the current turret layout there would be risk of significant blast damage, more-so on a broadside where a six gun broadside would be the norm and an eight gun broadside would cause shock and blast damage to the turret on the opposite beam due to the positioning of the muzzles of the cross deck turret. With this design weight would also be saved due to the shortening of the ship, reducing weight to roughly 18000 tonnes fully loaded which would save money and time."

The First Lord looked each of the assembled officers in the eye. "Are you all in agreement with this?"

"Yes First Lord we are."

"You're all bloody muiteneers...and I thought Beresford was bad.." There was a moment of silence before the First Lord chuckled. "Fine. Can't dismiss the lot of you now can I...I want to see those plans on my desk no later than tomorrow afternoon after Mass in Westminster. Now onto the fate of the Lord Nelson and Agamemnon. Do we complete them or cancel them on the stocks?"

"Well considering these ships we are planning here will make them obsolete at a stroke it seems rather pointless to continue their construction, we can use the steel put aside for them in the construction of the Dreadnought and...considering the sale of the Swiftsure and Triumph to Japan, we may well have enough money to make a sistership for the Dreadnought."

That made the First Lords eyes light up, it was going to be a long meeting. One of many.

1: The First Lord of the Admiralty Sir John Fisher.
2: The DNC Sir Phillip Watts, director of naval construction for the Royal Navy.

Below is some data from Springsharp, a ship designing programme to show it is possible to make the changes to the I Class I suggested.

Invincible Class New Armored Cruiser laid down 1906
Displacement: 16,405 t light; 17,273 t standard; 17,995 t normal; 18,572 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(565.00 ft / 557.00 ft) x 78.50 ft x (26.00 / 26.66 ft)
(172.21 m / 169.77 m) x 23.93 m x (7.92 / 8.13 m)

Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 871.37lbs / 395.24kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1906 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 32.27lbs / 14.64kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1906 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,745 lbs / 2,606 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.80" / 249 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 156.98 ft / 47.85 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 362.05 ft / 110.35 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.25" / 32 mm 362.05 ft / 110.35 m 23.93 ft / 7.29 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 69.00 ft / 21.03 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 4.00" / 102 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm
Forecastle: 0.75" / 19 mm Quarter deck: 0.75" / 19 mm

[Perky50]

Well done, well presented and well thought out. Keep it coming!

[Shevek23]

I'm glad to see this moving forward!

I have a very weak grasp of the technical arguments going on here.

To what extent is the Admiralty paying attention at all to the effect of the French torpedo boats on the battle? Considering that they are balancing concern about possible threats from either France or Germany--in the worst case, both together--they have to consider that the French at least might be thinking of putting their emphasis on more torpedo boats, as another poster mentioned some time ago, this means than instead of trying to match the RN, they will be focused on a force balance that can neutralize it. The Germans too, coming from so far behind, might follow a similar path.

Of course France, and even Germany, can't just focus on clearing their home waters of the British threat; they both have colonies overseas that also have to be defended, and they have to plan in terms of some way of getting ships across the high seas RN gauntlet to keep communications open too. That suggests a more balanced fleet than just legions of PT boats.

Nevertheless, while considering the threat posed by enemy battleships, the Admiralty had better be also thinking of how to keep torpedo boats at arm's length.