Poland allies with Germany in the mid 1930's.

[Shaby]

Originally Posted by Eurofed

Recover from what ? If Poland is an Axis member, there is no way whatsoever the Entente would declare war to Germany in 1939. They would buy popcorn and watch the fascists and Bolsheviks tear each other out, hoping for mutual exhaustion, and if anything, deeming Hitler a lesser threat than Stalin as they had done in the 1930s.

On a more general point, both Germany and the USSR would be horrendously unprepared for their existential struggle in 1940.

Ouch, I thought this was the other thread, sorry. Disregard the part on LW. Still, they would need to prepare their ground forces. Build up infra in Poland, build up supplies on jump off points, draw up plans for attack, form up enough armored divisions, train them. Stuff like that will still probably take a year or so, no matter how you cut it. In the plus side there would be no western front to distract them. Also on the negative side no industry in France and Low Countries augmenting German industry.

[brokenman]

Germany and Poland have two similar enemies, communism. The best bet is a more aggressive Soviet Union and/or a milder Germany.

[tallthinkev]

So, so far it seems that a bit of give and take, from both sides, it could of happened.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by tallthinkev

So, so far it seems that a bit of give and take, from both sides, it could of happened.

Less than that, just Poland signing up to Anti-Comintern in 1935 and they’re away; they operated as de facto allies with regard to Austria, Czechoslovakia and Lithuania anyway.

[visvamba]

Hitler could never allow East Prussia to be territorially separated from the rest of Germany. Poland would never give up access to the sea via the Corridor. For an alliance to happen, Poland would need a new Corridor to the sea. Perhaps Hitler would allow Poland to annex Lithuania or would force the Lithuanians into confederation with Poland? The Poles would gladly give up Gdynia in exchange for Lithuania.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by visvamba

Hitler could never allow East Prussia to be territorially separated from the rest of Germany...

Is that why his first foreign treaty was with Poland confirming the existing border and normalising relations?

[Zaius]

Originally Posted by visvamba

Hitler could never allow East Prussia to be territorially separated from the rest of Germany. Poland would never give up access to the sea via the Corridor. For an alliance to happen, Poland would need a new Corridor to the sea.

Hadn't he accepted that in signing the non-aggression pact with Poland in 1934? While Poland wouldn't have given away any of its own territory, Danzig and exterritorial routes through the corridor - which would have provided the link to East Prussia - could have been entirely acceptable.

Originally Posted by visvamba

Perhaps Hitler would allow Poland to annex Lithuania or would force the Lithuanians into confederation with Poland? The Poles would gladly give up Gdynia in exchange for Lithuania.

The idea that Lithuanian ports could have been a viable replacement for a corridor to the Danzig region seems to pop up in just about every thread about interwar Poland lately. It looks good on a map, but there was no infrastructure allowing Poland to even begin channelling its trade in that direction, and of course no viable seaports in Lithuania. Once Hitler gets his hands on Memel, only tiny fishing villages are left.

[MSZ]

Originally Posted by visvamba

Hitler could never allow East Prussia to be territorially separated from the rest of Germany. Poland would never give up access to the sea via the Corridor. For an alliance to happen, Poland would need a new Corridor to the sea. Perhaps Hitler would allow Poland to annex Lithuania or would force the Lithuanians into confederation with Poland? The Poles would gladly give up Gdynia in exchange for Lithuania.

These are two very common stereotypes: that keeping East Prussia as an exclave is unacceptable and it absolutly has to have a land connection tothe Reich (There are plenty of functional exclaves in the world, not to mention offshore islands; Germany was capable of administrating and defending a colonial empire as far as in Africa) and that the "Corridor for Lithuania" is a viable solution - it was not, the Poles didn't want to give up polish-inhabited Pomeralia, the Lithuanians didn't want to be part of Poland, Memelland didn't have the necessary infrastructure nor was it possible to build, plus the city would still have a German majority. Nobody took this scenario seriously apart from some British and German politicians in the 20's and it was abandoned soon after.

[tallthinkev]

There was a Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth for about 200 years, would this count for anything by this point in time?

[tallthinkev]

Another thing I have thought about. Wouldn't Poland have been better off ecnomically. With German industry and Poland's raw materials the money comming and going both ways be more important than just land swapping?

[Magnificate]

Originally Posted by tallthinkev

There was a Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth for about 200 years, would this count for anything by this point in time?

Nope. In fact Lithuanian national consciousness was built in opposition to Polish influences in a similar way that that Polish national consciousness included opposition to German influence. There was a significant Polish minority in Lithuania that could potentially enable a joint state, but then again their situation would be similar to pre-WWI Polish minority in Germany.

Originally Posted by tallthinkev

Wouldn't Poland have been better off ecnomically. With German industry and Poland's raw materials the money comming and going both ways be more important than just land swapping?

Potentially. However, trust is the problem. Poland doesn’t trust Germany not to pressure or exploit them as there is little reason for Germany to pursue an alliance on equal terms.

[kclcmdr]

Originally Posted by Magnificate

Nope. In fact Lithuanian national consciousness was built in opposition to Polish influences in a similar way that that Polish national consciousness included opposition to German influence. There was a significant Polish minority in Lithuania that could potentially enable a joint state, but then again their situation would be similar to pre-WWI Polish minority in Germany.

Potentially. However, trust is the problem. Poland doesn’t trust Germany not to pressure or exploit them as there is little reason for Germany to pursue an alliance on equal terms.

Would the only common denominator for an Alliance of Convenience for the folks in Eastern Europe would be a military threat by Stalin's demands for land to buffer the Soviet Union from any military strike by Germany...

Would that, again, convince the Poles, the Finns, the Baltic folks, the Rumanians and other Eastern European folks that the greater threat from the Soviet Union in the short-run over the loss of territory, cities, minerals and folks on those lands being demanded by Russia override any concern that they would have from Germany whom would likewise be concern that Soviet demands from their Eastern Neighbor's lands would be perceive as a possible threat to launch Soviet Troops closer toward Germany instead of buffer zones to eat up the military strength of Germany if they had planned to launch an invasion against them...

meh...

[yourworstnightmare]

Could a Trotskyite USSR scare Germany and Poland enough for an alliance?

[MSZ]

Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare

Could a Trotskyite USSR scare Germany and Poland enough for an alliance?

Depends on the Soviet Unions attitude towards Germany and Poland. If Trotsky stays true to hid ideas of permanent revolution and war communism, ignores the Rapallo treaty and is generally hostile towards both Germany and Poland, then it just might happen - with Germany using the red scare in Europe to abolish Versailles terms and create an all-european anti-communist bloc with Poland as well.

[jony663]

Originally Posted by MSZ

Depends on the Soviet Unions attitude towards Germany and Poland. If Trotsky stays true to hid ideas of permanent revolution and war communism, ignores the Rapallo treaty and is generally hostile towards both Germany and Poland, then it just might happen - with Germany using the red scare in Europe to abolish Versailles terms and create an all-european anti-communist bloc with Poland as well.

I can see a rearmed Germany looking to fight this war in Poland and not Germany.