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  #41  
Old January 27th, 2012, 09:01 PM
galileo-034 galileo-034 is online now
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France is weaker than Great Britain. Mollet's government could fall because of worsening economical conditions and its successor could be less willing to pursue the expedition of Suez.

But if the anglo-french expedition was successfull, it could have major consequences for Europe. An EEC including the anglo-french axis could become, not only stronger economically, but also politically, being not forced to follow the american foreign policy.
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  #42  
Old January 27th, 2012, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm View Post
Bluff and Counter-Bluff. Whatever way this ends up I don't think anyone will be talking about a special relationship for a while.
IMO special relationship is dead as Dodo.
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  #43  
Old January 27th, 2012, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by galileo-034 View Post
France is weaker than Great Britain. Mollet's government could fall because of worsening economical conditions and its successor could be less willing to pursue the expedition of Suez.

But if the anglo-french expedition was successfull, it could have major consequences for Europe. An EEC including the anglo-french axis could become, not only stronger economically, but also politically, being not forced to follow the american foreign policy.
Yes, France is weaker, but, as you said, that could have positive consequences. Also, there are still some aces in Guy Mollet's sleeve.
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  #44  
Old January 27th, 2012, 11:11 PM
lukedalton lukedalton is online now
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Ok, diplomatically the shit is going to hit the fan and relationships between the two side of the atlantic will be a lot less rosy, at least for the short time.
Big change in Middle East, with Nasser gone and the arab nationalism cause getting a big hit there is the strong possibility that a progressive radical islam will become predominant before is time or the communist will get the spot.
Israel will probably mantain is close tie with France and UK (and later the EEC...maybe even memberships in the very long term) and in this case things will become really interesting in the next round, because a next war is guaranteed, we can see the arab terrorist think of Europe instead of the USA as the power behind the 'zionist' and if a Liberty like incident happens... i doubt that will be ignored like OTL
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  #45  
Old January 28th, 2012, 11:38 AM
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I wonder, could Black Knight rocket be good nuclear weapons carrier? If it can deliver sattelites in orbit, it should be good enough as British first land-based ICBM?

Especially if it is solid fuel powered. It is cheap ( only 40 000 pounds per missile )
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  #46  
Old January 28th, 2012, 12:40 PM
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Operation Lightning

In morning of November 6th news arriwed that Anglo-French forces have taken al-Qantarah and are continuing push for Ismailia. In meanwhile, joint commanders had a new plan on how to take Canal Zone as quickly as possible. is was risky, but with little bit of luck and a lot of air support, it could just work. As airfield in Port Said was functional by now, they envisaged another airborne attack by British Paras on Port Suez. Since Port Said was now safely under control of soldiers from 3rd Infantry Division and Royal Marines and 6th Royal Tank Regiment were now with French 3 RPC in al-Qantarah and moving for Ismailiah, that has left free British Paratroopers. So, operation called Operation Lightning was planned in just about one day. Transport aircrafts and helicopters would pick British Paratroopers in Port Said and drop them on three places 150 km south, one north of Port Suez ( by helicopters ), one far west of Port Suez ( to serve as protection in case of Egyptian counterattack ) and west of Port Suez ( with French aircrafts ) closer to the city. From there they will storm the city if possible, and if not block the city and wait for arrival of main force from the north. Aircrafts from aircrafts carriers will provide for air cover and air support if nescesarry. Canberras from Cyprus airbases will also be on standby if additional air support is required either in repulsing Egyptian eventual counter-attack from the west or in destroying points of resistance in Port Suez. Transport aircrafts will after that continue to airdrop supplies to British Forces but area was pretty flat, so landing of supply planes should also be possible once area is secured.

Also, commanders decided to land another armoured regiment in Port Said so that she can form strategic reserve in case of Egyptian counter-attack.

Operation was bold, but it had great advantages. Alltrough some in British Headquarters warned that it could end as second Market Garden, nobody really thought that Egyptian Army is like Germans, so strong and descisive move could easily lead that resistance of whole Egyptian Army collapses.
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  #47  
Old January 28th, 2012, 02:07 PM
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Phone call

Recordings of telephone conversation between Prime Minister Anthony Eden and Prime Minister Guy Mollet on November 6th, 16,30.

Eden: Bonjour monsiour Mollet. How are you?

Mollet: Bonjour monsiour Eden. I'm fine, thank you for your kind question. And I'm even better now after our units have taken al-Quantarah and moving towards Ismailiyah.

Eden: Yes, that is really good development, let's hope that Ismaillyah will be soon taken.

Mollet: I'm sure it will. I would like to thank you for your gallant gesture of providing your nuclear umbrella, so to say, to France. France will not forget that.

Eden: No, no, there's no need for that Mr. Mollet. That's perfectly normal thing to do. After all, we are old allies, not only in NATO, but in Entente Cordiale as well. It was the least that we could do for you. It is really shame that great power like France has no nuclear weapons. That should be changed as soonest as possible.

Mollet: Indeed mr. Eden. A help of your Government would be most helpfull and truly a grand gesture.

Eden: Yes, we will have to discuss that after this whole affair is over. I heard from your ambassador that you are rather worried about oil supply?

Mollet: Yes, our oil reserves are pretty low, so if Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries decide to introduce oil embargo on us, our economy would be in big problems. We have some indications that oil could be found in Algeria but even if true, it would need few years to get first oil from there. So, do you have enough oil to help us?

Eden: I see your point. We also have small reserves, but we could increase production in our fields in Iran, Kuvait and Qatar, so that should be enough, with little rationalisation, of course. First few weeks could be pretty bumpy. But after that situation should stabilise. That would not be popular trough.

Mollet: Well, I presume that will have to be enough. We simply can't allow that Nasser pulls out with this. We have to topple him down. Rations or no-rations.

Eden: I fully agree with you. I have strong support in my cabinet, alltrough some parts of opposition are against of this action. But, with them or without them, this is something that had to be made. I'm only sorry that we didn't do that before. It would be the best if we had intervened at the moment when King was deposed, that would be much more easy than this.

Mollet: I agree. It seems that we have strong support for this action in France. Or at least strong enough. But I still can't understand the attitude of Americans. I didn't expect such bad reaction from them. After all, we are fighting in Egypt for cause of whole Western World, and they instead thanking us for spending our money and blood for common cause, they prefer to appease that little dictator Nasser. Do they think that he has better intentions towards them? Such folly, sincerely I didn't expect such blunder from experienced general like Eisenhower.

Eden: Neither do I. But, with him or without him, we have to get this to the sucessful end. And be assured in our unconditional support. You are most probably aware that they had yesterday threatned us with selloff of our Sterling Bonds. we have replied to them that in that case we would be forced to suspend paying of our WW2 debts for indefiite period, most likely for ever. And that their policy of goeing against their two most imporrtant allies in NATO is very dangerous for very survival of NATO. That should be enough to stop them from further meddling for now. I would propose that you do the same thing, they do not understand any arguments.

Mollet: I agree. You have done a good thing. When I remember that Soviets have offered to us that they will stop heling FLN if we get out of NATO, and I said to them that it would be ungracefull if France betray's our most important allies like that. And what did we get for such loyality? A stab in the back.

Eden: I can't agree more. But I wanted to contact you about plans for Operation Lightning, you did recieve plans from our joint headquarters?

Mollet: Yes, I did, and I discussed them with our military advisors. They think that the plan is really good, and it could easily work. And we do want to finish this as soonest as before, do we?

Eden: Of course. So you agree with the plan? A bit rash planning, don't you think?

Mollet: No, if they say that they can manage it, I say- go with it. Egypt is in no condition to really threathen to our forces, and if we suceed in this, that could mean collapse of their defences. It would also have strong effect on their morale. And that could mean that we could more easily suceed in our main goal- toppling of Nasser. How he isn't such big hero as he was in July, right?

Eden: ( chuckling ) Indeed, all right, I agree with this operation too. So it will be put into motion as soonest as possible. And now we only need strong posh from our side and little bit of encouragement to opposition in his ranks and he could be very well deposed in a coup. Our Intelligence is allready in contact with some of them. We ordered them to hint them that we won't negotiate with Nasser, as he obviously don't stick to the agreements. So a new leader for Egypt would be nescessary if they want lenient terms.

Mollet: I agree. As soonest as that man is deposed- the better. Then we could halt our forces and began negotiations.

Eden: True. So, mr. Prime Minister it was nice to hear you. I'm glad that we have agreed about evreything. I hope that we will see ourselves soon, but this time with sucessfull outcome of this action behind us.

Mollet: Me too Mr. Prime Minister. Have a nice day.

Eden: You too. Good bye.

Mollet: Good bye.
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  #48  
Old January 28th, 2012, 02:41 PM
The Oncoming Storm The Oncoming Storm is offline
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Originally Posted by abc123 View Post
I wonder, could Black Knight rocket be good nuclear weapons carrier? If it can deliver sattelites in orbit, it should be good enough as British first land-based ICBM?

Especially if it is solid fuel powered. It is cheap ( only 40 000 pounds per missile )
Black Knight was really only intended as a test vehicle for developing the warhead for Blue Streak so it probably didn't have the range or payload to be an operational missile. Perhaps you could use it as the basis for a larger missile but this would probably only be an IRBM or MRBM.
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  #49  
Old January 28th, 2012, 02:53 PM
abc123 abc123 is offline
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Black Knight was really only intended as a test vehicle for developing the warhead for Blue Streak so it probably didn't have the range or payload to be an operational missile. Perhaps you could use it as the basis for a larger missile but this would probably only be an IRBM or MRBM.
Good enough for a start. If can drop a bomb from UK to Moscow, good enough.
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  #50  
Old January 29th, 2012, 06:20 PM
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Next update- tomorrow.

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  #51  
Old January 30th, 2012, 02:23 PM
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Operation Lightning

Above Port Suez



Hunderts of British Paratroopers were dropped in the morning of November 7th above Port Suez. One part was deployed by helicopters from UK commando carriers. They took northern landing zone. Western and far-western zone was taken by parachute jump. About 1500 British Paras was deployed for this operation. After air-recconaisance indicated that no strong resistance could be expected in the area, the descision was made to go ahead with operation. So, before the jump, strong air strikes were made in that area with goal of scaring Egyptian forces in Port Suez and cutting off some possible passes for Egyptian armoured units. Paratroopers at the far-west landing spot were intended as protective detail that should slow down eventual Egyptian counter-attack and channalise it trough few passes that could then be easily choked by British air strikes. Recconaiscance flights were sent to the west and northwest.

As expected, there were allmost no resistance at landing positions, alltrough Egyptian air-defence artillery did damaged few aircrafts. After establishing landing area defence, both groups ( Group Alpha and Group Beta ) moved towards Port Suez from two directions, west and northwest, while Group Charlie made defansive positions at the west ( north of Attaka mountain ).

In the meantime, Anglo-French forces were fighting in Ismailia, and alltrough some Egyptian units still were resisting and a lot of snipers was in the city, commander of attacking forces general Jacques Massu was confident that he can take the city until night, at the latest tommorow morning. So he decided, after recieving intelligence informations that Egyptian armoured forces are passive that he needs only one squadron of Centurion tanks, for support in urban fighting, while other squadrons were sent to the south, to help capture Port Suez.



Centurion tank

After entering the city Paras were met with pretty strong resistance, especially because Egyptian forces there had nowhere to retreat. Paras were pushing to the center of city but with strong resistance. Narrow streets were difficult for combat, especially as British Forces were under strict orders from London to avoid, if possible, civillian casualties. Egyptians, on the other hand, counted on numerous civilian casualties as their advantage.


Paras in Suez

In afternoon first squadron of Centurion tanks arrived. He was sent to help with fire support for Paras as they were pushing into the centre of Port Suez. Second squadron was sent to the west to join Group Charlie in protective position agains eventual Egyptian counterattack.

Until the evening Paras from Group Beta have suceeded to take oil-tanks area in southern part of Port Suez, while Group Alpha has taken about half of the city. before the evening, British Forces established provisory landing strip where cargo airplanes could land and bring supplies or evacuate casualties.

Landing of second tank regiment was scheduled for tomorrow morning, after landing they will go towards al-Qantarah to serve as strategic reserve in case of Egyptian counterattack or as spearhead in case of attack towards Cairo.
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  #52  
Old January 31st, 2012, 07:37 PM
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Fighting in Canal Zone

In noon of November 8th Ismailia was taken, a bit later than general Massu anticipated, but it was nonetheless a good result. Fierce figtnings were still in Port Suez, but Paras were now pretty close to the city centre. Naval gunfire support from RN ships in Red Sea was significant in breaking some points of resistance. Also, Centurion tanks were invaluable in breaking some pockets in the old part of city by simply runing with them into house and crashing the house in process.

Civilian casualties were unavoidable, but commander thought that swift execution of operation will reduce civilian casualties especially if alternative if prolonged fighting ( with artillery shelling ) in city full of civillians. When the night fell only some token pockets of resistance were left, and they were left for tomorrow to clean them. Same thing was with snipers who were harassing Paras in allmost evrey street.

In meanwhile, agents of British Intelligence were in contact with some members of Egyptian government that were not happy with Nasser's policy. Their leader was general Naguib. Naguib was popular general that was first president of Egypt, but was later sidelined, and even put in house arrest by Nasser. Except Naguib there was number of other generals in Egyptian army that were not happy with conflict with UK and France and they were thinking that Nasser was too reckless in provoking the British. They thought that his recklessness would jeopardise evreything they wanted to do for Egypt. They didn't agreed with all his descisions not even before this war, but he was way too popular to do anything against him. Many politicians of former ( now-banned ) Wafd Party were against Nasser and would welcome return of democracy in Egypt. Also, some of them wanted to be new leaders of Egypt. So, this war ( catastrophic until now ) was excellent oportunity for them to act.


General Muhammad Naguib

But the question was how? How to do it, without causing civil war in country? And would rebellion against president in time of war when country was invaded would be interpreted as treason?

But then, general Amer, Chief of Staff of Egyptian Army and also one of those that were not happy with Nasser, especially after he blamed him and Salah Salem for defeat and after strong argument with Nasser previous days, provided nescesarry information. He revealed wheere Nasser will be next few days.


General Abdel Hakim Amer

So, now only a swift action to eliminate Nasser was nescesarry. But, who will do it?
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Last edited by abc123; January 31st, 2012 at 09:21 PM.. Reason: .
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  #53  
Old January 31st, 2012, 08:45 PM
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Well, inteligence leaks happen. So do accidents.
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  #54  
Old January 31st, 2012, 09:21 PM
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Odlican TL prijatelju. Tek sam ga sad sustigao. Subscribed.

For English speakers: Excellent TL.

Well, inteligence leaks happen. So do accidents.
Thanks Shaby, this is something that I waited for long and have tried different ideas here, but I hope that this could work. But I'm not yet quite sure about some things...

About leaks, this isn't leak, Amer did that to get rid of Nasser ( after he blamed him for defeat ).
And about accident, I'm not sure yet what could happen...
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  #55  
Old February 1st, 2012, 04:49 AM
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About leaks, this isn't leak, Amer did that to get rid of Nasser ( after he blamed him for defeat ).
No, I mean the conspirators could leak the info to the Allies? I am not sure if they would try to get him, but they might.
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  #56  
Old February 1st, 2012, 02:59 PM
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No, I mean the conspirators could leak the info to the Allies? I am not sure if they would try to get him, but they might.
I'm not sure how to do that.
Commando raid?
Squadron of Canberra bombers dropping 150 bombs on the house? That should be enough to really hit something?
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  #57  
Old February 1st, 2012, 06:40 PM
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Oil & Politics

In November 9th British Forces have suceeded to finaly take Port Suez. Anthony Eden and Guy Mollet were overjoyed, while US president Eisenhower was furious. He wanted to do something about the whole thing, but he didn't dare to go openly against Britain and France. He was not sure what to do for a few days and he thought that now when Anglo-French forces have fulfilled goals of their operation it is allready too late to do anything meaningfull, except direct military intervention of United States in favour of Egypt, but that was unthinkable. Oposition in Senate was allready tremendeus. So, he decided to wait and try to get goodwill from Arabs by condemning actions of Triple Alliance ( UK, France, Israel ) while in the same time he was not ready to burn all bridges between USA and their most important allies in Europe.

Soviets continued with their media campaign against "imperialist conquerers" but have not done anything else. They did however able to put down revolution in Hungary but with large number of casualties ( in both sides ) and with even larger number of refugees from Hungary ( especially in Austria ).

In meanwhile, British and French Government decided to prepare for oil rationing that will enable that their countries can hold for a few months while their oil wells in Iran, Iraq, Kuvait, Bahrein and Qatar could increase production enough and their tankers can be rerouted to cover for their needs. That would have two additional benefits. Enlarged production will lead to drop of oil prices, and that could hurt oil exporting countries like Saudi Arabia and USA. Also, when British and French owned ships begin transport oil just for Britain, France and Israel ( because of 60% longer travel time around Cape of Good Hope ) that would also leed to additional shortage of oil in European countries that refused to sell their oil to France and UK. So that would be some sort of retaliation to them because of goeing against UK and France in this situation.

So, in general, while aware that oil rationing will not be a popular measure, the mood in British and French Government was good because they expected that the worst part is over and that things will be back in normal is short time.

In meanwhile, British began to prepare top-secret operation code-named Operation Patera.
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  #58  
Old February 1st, 2012, 08:00 PM
lukedalton lukedalton is online now
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I'm not sure how to do that.
Commando raid?
Squadron of Canberra bombers dropping 150 bombs on the house? That should be enough to really hit something?
i don't know, maybe there is the fear to make him a martir if the UK/France killed him, worse if the conspirator eliminate him personally as they will cleary seem as traitors...probably better outsourcing to Israel the all problem, after all the arabs already hate them.
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  #59  
Old February 1st, 2012, 08:39 PM
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i don't know, maybe there is the fear to make him a martir if the UK/France killed him, worse if the conspirator eliminate him personally as they will cleary seem as traitors...probably better outsourcing to Israel the all problem, after all the arabs already hate them.
Well, I'm not so sure that ITTL Nasser will be seen as martyr and visionar, rather ambitious and reckless populist dictator that entangled Egypt in conflict with two world powers and man that ruined Egypt. So, maybe some sort of lip service will be given to him later, but not much, IMO.

Also, British don't want to spread the news how they got the information about his route too much, thats the reason why they will do it alone. Besides, it is allways good to be seen as strong military power. Especially in Middle East.
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  #60  
Old February 2nd, 2012, 01:40 PM
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Operation Patera

Informations passed by general Amer were saying that president Nasser will visit 1st Armoured Division of Egyptian Army that was stationed north of Cairo ( near of Cairo- Ismailia highway ) and after that he will make a speech in city near by. That was opportunity that should not be missed. So, Eden ordered preparing of action to take Nasser out, code-named Operation Patera.

On November 11, Nasser really did go on visit/inspection of 1st Armoured Division ( unit that should be first in defence of Cairo if Anglo-French forces attack Cairo ). After that, his convoy ( consisting of 2 limousines, few jeeps and few trucks with soldiers ) headed for nearby city Sharkia. Then carefully planned operation began. Road between Sharkia and Cairo-Ismailia highway had one 12 km long part that was flat and provided possibility of precise strike.

So, first in action were de Havilland Venoms. Alltrough RAF had clear air supremacy in the area, 6 Venoms were in combat air patrol in the area, if attack aircrafts shold need protection. Another 6 was armed with 8 RP-3 rockets each.



So, they first fired their rockets on convoy and after that they straffed the area. After the convoy was stopped second part of attack came.



Six English Electric Canberras dropped 13 500 lb bombs each on remains of convoy to increase possibility of sucess.

After all of that one Vickers Valetta dropped 20 members of Paras in area that should see is the target sucessfully destroyed and if not to finish them off. After jump they came to the remains of convoy and confirmed that Nasser and pretty much evreybody else were eliminated in the attack. After that, Valetta landed on road, picked paratroopers and forces went home.



Operation Patera was over in less than 20 minutes and the message was sent to London: Nasser is eliminated.
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