The official discussion thread: 1918 - The German Navy sorties one last time -V.IV-

Hi all! Well, Version IV (4) of my story, now titled '1918 - The Hoschseeflotte sorties against England one last time --V.IV--' is now up and sort of running. I have created a thread in the writer's forum for the story posts only, so please only post your comments, suggestions, replies etc. here, or PM me with them.

The main story can be found in this thread, or in my signature, or on the website I have for it (Also in sig). I am not thinking of posting the updates to the story in this thread, but if you would like me to, then please say so and I will.

Now, for those of you who have already read the story, please note that only superficial changes and spelling corrections exist until May of 1918. This is not currently posted, but is being heavily edited and I hope will be ready soon!

Thanks!

EDIT: I should also say, that the new above (or below) story supersedes my old topic located here.

Subscribed. I would have preferred a discussion thread in the same forum.

Adler

Adler17 said:

Subscribed. I would have preferred a discussion thread in the same forum.

Adler

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I agree.

Really? I thought the writer's forum was just for the stories. My bad!

I would go an create another new thread, but that seems a bit silly to me as I have made this one (all be it, in the wrong forum).

Very nice ATL, but a bit Germanwank IMHO.

Only initally. I wanked them during the sortie, yes, but won't really for the rest of the TL. Mostly, I just took actual OTL ideas or actions that had occured already in the war made them lucky for Germany. Things spin off from there.

I expected the British battleships to perform better. The British batllecruisers getting slaughtered was pretty logical. I also think that the light British units could have performed better, than you described in your TL. The German light units managed to get quite a lot of shots off at the British, suffering only rather moderate casualties.

This being one of the wanks A massed torpedo attack only needs to launch the torpedoes, after that it is down to luck really. I gave the Germans 15 hits, out of a maximum of 146 torpedoes carried by the small craft (Not including cruisers or Battlecruisers). 7 hits first attack and 6 second. That is a 10% hit/detonation ratio, which at close range (1000 yards) is pretty poor! At Jutland, where torpedoes were fired at longer ranges, 199 were fired in total (England and Germany combined, reference here) with 9 hits scored, a 4.5% hit ratio. For closer ranges, I figured on a higher hit ratio, so doubled it.

Regarding the sinking of HMS Malaya, the HMS Barham (A Queen Elizabeth Class ship and sister to HMS Malaya) was sunk in 1941 by 3 torpedoes fired by the U-331. These torpedoes hit below the armoured belt and each packed 300kg of Hexanite, for 900kg total. In 1918, I had the Malaya hit by at least 5 torpedoes. These torpedoes would be the 45cm (17.7") C/03 or C/03D. Now, each of these tinfish pack 176kg of Hexanite, making at least 880kg total. Given 5 explosions would be more spread out and do more combined damage than the 3 explosions that sunk the Barham, the HMS Malaya could not have survived the damage I gave her.

The other ships hit, got hit by less fish so survived. To be fair to historical records, German ships were better built (Smaller compartments and better armoured) than their British counterparts, being designed to stand in the battle line and take the punishment, and so the British would suffer a disproportionate ammount of damage compared to German ships.

On paper, the light British forces should have done better, yes I do agree. However in practice, they are attacking smaller (Than the British DDs) and equally fast moving targets, while firing from a small and fast moving vessel. All things considered, I am constantly amazed that the sailors could hit anything while rocking and yawing all over the place, soaked by spray and freezing cold!

As for the hit ratios and England should have being better shots, I found this website that listed the shells fired vs hits scored at Jutland. The Grand Fleet fired 4538 heavy shells (12" to 15") and scored just 100 hits. The Germans fired 3597 shells (11.1" & 12") and scored 120 hits. This gives hit percentages of 2.2% to the British and 3.3% to the Germans. Neither side were great shots to say the least, but the Germans were better, and given that all the capital ships I put into the sortie were at Jutland, I felt compelled to let the Germans be better shots again.

EDIT: I should also add that Germany had 45% less ships at Jutland than England had (For the above figures). UK = 37 BB/BC & HSF = 21 BB/BC, this will actually skew the figures, meaning that the German ships should have a higher hit percentage per vessel than 3.3%.

Suscribed!

I think Germany has with Belgium and Luxemburg two good bargaining chips for the colonies. Germany accepted their sovereignity, if the colonies were given back.

Adler

Adler17 said:

I think Germany has with Belgium and Luxemburg two good bargaining chips for the colonies. Germany accepted their sovereignity, if the colonies were given back.

Adler

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IMO it would better for Germany if she accepts loss of colonies and sovereignity of Belgium and Luxemburg in exchange for keeping Alsace-Lorraine and Brest-Litovsk peace.

Germany will have to be careful though. If she refuses to give up Belgium or Luxembourg unless she gets the colonies back, England for one will not make peace as she 'offically' went to war to protect the sovereignty and independance of both nations, as per the terms of the Treaty of London 1839 (Belgium) and 1867 (Luxembourg).

ITTL Germany knows she is against the wall, and such a refusal would end up the same place as November 1918 OTL, but perhaps a few months later. She may be able to get some concessions, but certainly not all of her colonies back (After all, Japan would never return those that she captured as they were far too valuable to her!).....

Alsace and Lorraine were a breakingpoint in the attempt to get a long lasting peace, as France would never accept these lands remaining German, as the French claimed to be the rightfull landlords there historically. If the regions would become French again the disgrace of 1871 was repaired and more peacefull relations with Germany could be made, even with the acceptance that the Germans could get their colonies oversea back, as these were only secodnary to the European lands. Europe was and always had been the first priority for the French, simply out of national security reasoning, while the colonies were only a form of currency to trade with in bad times with any opponent. (Typical Imperialisitic thinking of the 19th centrury, as the rush to claim more land ever was still present in the post Great War period.)

Just noticed and updated a slight blooper! I had France and Italy returning to their 1914 borders, not Italy and Austro-Hungary!

lol I don't know why France and Italy would return to their borders as they are both members of the Allied nations! Corrected though

Suscribed!!!

Another minor tweak!

I have had the Allies ask the Ottoman Empire to withdraw from Persia (Last story post, Point VII).

The CP will accept this point I think, as the Ottoman Empire was in a state of near collapse (And will collapse in the next few years), at which point, Persia could just invade and take their land back. I figure that the Ottomans would know that they are in trouble due to social unrest, and agree so that they could concentrate on home grown problems, and it would stop Persia invaiding later and then grabbing more land at that time. In return, the Ottomans get their Treaty of Brest-Litovsk gains to the North, which I forgot to hand over in the last write of this.

Okies, the rest of May 1918 has just been posted. The main changes are the peace treaty of course, and the associated discussions. Most of the rest just has minor gramatical and spelling alterations, so is the same as the previous version.

Comments on the overall peace treaty please! I tried to be fair to all nations in it, while maintaining national honour and so on.

Have subscribed to this new thread, it does make it a lot easier to read without the disscussion(s) in the way

whatisinaname said:

Have subscribed to this new thread, it does make it a lot easier to read without the disscussion(s) in the way

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Hence me doing it this way on the re-write!

More GIVE ME MORE!!!! Excelent timeline Eternity. Just dont go down the road of a english/German rapport in the future much more fun if they go to war again in say 21 years time.