Challenge: Make the Netherlands the most Evil Nation in History

Emperor Norton I

Emperor Norton I

No offense meant to my Dutch friends, as I am not saying the Netherlands are now, nor have they ever been, nor are their people, nor have they ever been, evil.

But the challenge here is to make the Netherlands, or some iteration of it in history, considered the most evil of nations. The latter is something like how Nazi Germany is evil, but Germany overall and today isn't considered evil.
 

frozenpredator

Emperor Norton I said:
No offense meant to my Dutch friends, as I am not saying the Netherlands are now, nor have they ever been, nor are their people, nor have they ever been, evil.

But the challenge here is to make the Netherlands, or some iteration of it in history, considered the most evil of nations. The latter is something like how Nazi Germany is evil, but Germany overall and today isn't considered evil.
Click to expand...

This actually fits more in ASB, at least my idea
well they first need a stronger position to actually be regarded as dangerous evil as opposed to silly evil. A good POD would be the Southern Netherlands joining the Revolt and Spain somehow being beaten earlier allowing the Dutch to consolidate their position. The first signs of the Dutch becoming evil is the Genocide in the spice islands (happened OTL, just to ensure a Dutch monopoly). Then when Englands starts their 17th century far-fetched claim to the New Netherland colony have the Dutch somehow crush the Royal Navy in a war decisively followed up by seizing New England and slaughtering the population. then have them commit more barbaric acts, using Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing etc. to keep their monopolies.

I feel dirty just for writing that, luckily my idea is pretty ASB
 

The Sandman

Banned
Have Leopold II somehow become the King of a fully united Netherlands, give him control of the OTL Belgian and Dutch colonies, then stand back and watch the atrocities.
 

Photovoltaic Array

Maybe emphasize their starting the slave trade in the future USA (Jamestown) and their Afrikaner descendants?

Political leftists (or simply mercantilistic or capitalistic rivals) could also point to their being a blatant, glorified merchant republic for the longest time as well, since they did some pretty brazen things regarding profits their empire building. Not to mention the VOC logo is pretty scary in retrospect. Actually, it would be easy to see Europeans in the 1500's through 1800's develop a sort of equivalent to the Spanish "Black Legend" if done right here.

Uuuuhhh... maybe some people who really hate marijuana makes propaganda about the Dutch?
 

pompejus

The problem with an evil Netherlands is that the Netherlands is too small to be nasty in Europe. We were already pretty nasty in Indonesia, in Africa and in the America's, but as the people who suffered were usualy non-white non-Christians, people (the white and christian kind that writes history books) didn't realy care for it. Besides that all colonizing nation were pretty nasty, although the Netherlands was possibly one of the worst.

To make the Netherlands remembered as evil, the Netherlands needs to do bad stuff in Europe and I think it is just too small for it. Also it help if they do it recently, Nazi Germany is remembered becaus it happened last century, I fear that in a couple of decades a lot less people will care about it.

What I would do to lay the foundation of an evil Netherlands is a netherlands that gains/keeps the southern Netherlands, becomes hardline calvinist and very intollerant towards people not being hardline calvinist, including not only catholics, but jews too and even not calvinist protestants. They missbehave even worse in their colonies and I think that still isn't enough to be remembered.
 
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The Uchronian

Emperor Norton I said:
No offense meant to my Dutch friends, as I am not saying the Netherlands are now, nor have they ever been, nor are their people, nor have they ever been, evil.

But the challenge here is to make the Netherlands, or some iteration of it in history, considered the most evil of nations. The latter is something like how Nazi Germany is evil, but Germany overall and today isn't considered evil.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, this was actually one of my earliest ideas........it was more of a comicesque story than a bonafide AH exercise, though.
 

Kolade

You can make the Netherlands more evil with two different Pod's one in 1588 during the 80 Year's War with Spain. And after 1813 when the French left Holland and a new Regent came to power....

Just a helpful hint....
 

Sam R.

pompejus said:
We were already pretty nasty in Indonesia, in Africa and in the America's, but as the people who suffered were usualy non-white non-Christians people (the white and christian kind that writes history books) didn't realy care for it. Besides that all colonizing nation were pretty nasty, although the Netherlands was possibly one of the worst.
Click to expand...

Indonesia is nasty enough. If you want to make it worse, the same only more so.

If you want to make it worse in the 20th century, have the Comintern impose discipline on the PKI in the 1920s, so that the PKI is in an optimal position to hegemonise anti Dutch nationalism, and thence anti Japanese nationalism, and thence anti Dutch nationalism. Cue UK and Australian involvement in an unwinnable Dutch imperialist anti-communist war.
 

Tyr

Maybe wwe could have Burgundy gradually becoming ever more Dutch and turning into a rich, urban, united country whilst France continues to go the way of the holy roman empire and fragments.
Then you'd have the Netherlands as the powerful nation, not the nation hemmed in by two powers.
From there...they can be as evil as they like. Go a-conquering in Europe, explore and genocide the world, etc...
 

Corbell Mark IV

Sam R. said:
Indonesia is nasty enough. If you want to make it worse, the same only more so.

If you want to make it worse in the 20th century, have the Comintern impose discipline on the PKI in the 1920s, so that the PKI is in an optimal position to hegemonise anti Dutch nationalism, and thence anti Japanese nationalism, and thence anti Dutch nationalism. Cue UK and Australian involvement in an unwinnable Dutch imperialist anti-communist war.
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Better yet have them WIN. By playing MEAN.:mad:

Then they are the last and nastiest of the Imperial Powers. Thus during the heights of decolonization they sort of inherit the post colonial anger of the whole world.

When the US/UN starts trying to undermine them, Cold War era, they develop nuclear weapons!

Be kind of funny if they somehow manage to still turn a profit through imperalism...

Maybe a good alliance with some bad actors later on?



Mmmm, mayber they could have sat out WWII as supposedly neutral, but while trading heavy with the Axis...
 

CandyDragon

I think keeping Belgium and Holland as one state is the only way. Maybe a United Kingdom of the Netherlands, and when Belgium wants out, they start committing atrocities? I'm not sure if this would work, however.
 

pompejus

Corbell Mark IV said:
Better yet have them WIN. By playing MEAN.:mad:

Then they are the last and nastiest of the Imperial Powers. Thus during the heights of decolonization they sort of inherit the post colonial anger of the whole world.

When the US/UN starts trying to undermine them, Cold War era, they develop nuclear weapons!

Be kind of funny if they somehow manage to still turn a profit through imperalism...

Maybe a good alliance with some bad actors later on?



Mmmm, mayber they could have sat out WWII as supposedly neutral, but while trading heavy with the Axis...
Click to expand...

That could happen. The Netherlands remains friendly with Japan and sells them the oil they need. Japan convinces nazi Germany not to invade the Netherlands, which remains neutral (like during WWI). After the second world war the Indonesians start to rebel, which the Dutch crush horribly.

The problems with this scenario are a couple:
First a POD around the 1930's is too late. The Netherlands was already a democratic nation that started treating the Indonesians a lot better, at least compared to the 19th century.
Secondly: you need a reason for the Nazi's not to invade the Netherlands.
Thirdly: I think the warcrimes of the Nazi's, Japanese and the Soviet Union will overshadow whatever the Netherlands does in Indonesia.

Maybe a POD in the 19th century which prevents democracy rising in the Netherlands, no Max Havelaar, the Indonesians are still treated badly and butterfly away the Nazi's and their most horrible warcrimes. Still you end up with the problem that Indonesians aren't white and thus their suffering will be cared less about then what happened during WW2 Hitler and Stalin are more infamous than Leopold II or Poll Pott). So lets include some European suffering. How about this: the Netherlands gains after the congress of merely Flanders. Because of this the Belgian revolution is either avoided or on a smaller scale. The Dutch king still treats the Dutch Catholic citizens as second rate citizens, and slowly some kind of apartheid state rises at the beginning/middle of the 20th century. Or maybe it manage to keep Wallonia and treats its Walloon citizens as second rate citizens. This will be the time when the Indonesians rise in rebellion and is horribly crushed. For "fun" lets extend slavery in the Dutch colonies longer than OTL. The Dutch keep various African colonies, like the Dutch Gold coast and miss behave there. Extend their posessions in Indonesia (including Northern Borneo and Eastern New Guinea). Is there a way to tie South Africa to the Netherlands? Maybe this Netherlands manages to turn the Boer Republics into protectorates or something.

Anyway this Netherlands finaly comes crashing down in the middle of the twentieth century, because of external pressure from other countries and internal preasure from Catholics/Walloons demanding the same rights as protestants/Dutch and the colonies fighting for independence. And besides that we still have to avoid any major excesses from other countries like the holocaust during Nazi Germany.
 

Dalmighty

How do you define evil?

You could make the Dutch the holdouts in decolonization and (secretly) starting punitive wars to consolidate their colonies through the usual war atrocities.

Even better, get dutch military officers to go and set up mini-dictatorships in the colonies with tacit government support. You get Leopold multiplied many times over.

Or the easiest route: the Dutch get nuclear weapons and vaporizes Indonesian rebels (and Dutch Cape Colony rebels) after they pop up. Combine this with war atrocities and a corrupt central government that does nothing to stop such actions. International condemnation but it falls short of armed intervention. The Dutch hence become the pariahs and rogue nation of Europe. It helps if Europe has just suffered a devastating war and the US is too busy with its own backyard (CSA etc etc). The POD of course leaves the Netherlands much stronger relatively to other powers. It's much easier if Europe is much more splintered with smaller nations.
 

amphibulous

Banned
People forget that 1. the Dutch almost win the battle for naval superiority with England in the Stuart period, and 2. for a long time they were the richest nation in the world. Easily.

If they win, they get North American colonies. They keep them, allow emigration from abroad subject to cultural absorption - and by the nineteenth century New And Old Holland have a combined population much bigger than France's. They go into the Industrial Revolution ahead of the UK. They can now do a lot of bad things.

Although why they'd want to do anything worse than the US did - which always lived down to the bottom end of its moral opportunities in that century (Amerindian genocide, last to abolish slavery) is open to question. Perhaps a rival American nation or two would give them the opportunities needed?
 

amphibulous

Banned
So -

- Cromwell loses the ECW

- The Dutch beat the hell out of the neuter Stuarts, who never receive an infusion of Cromwellia competence (Old Nol's Captain-At-Sea Blake is the real father of the RN and invents bluewater blockading) and become Europe's dominant naval power

- They become the main colonizer of the US and have colonies equivalent to OTL by the time of the ARW, but the Spanish and French have considerable colonies too.

- Around 1815 a French post-revolutionary regime conquers Spain. Their colonies are merged. Major war breaks out in Europe and the New World. Both sides invade the UK and try to grab enclaves there as naval bases. France ends up with Ireland and the Dutch with enclaves on the mainland. At first they just have two or three ports, but then they want coal.

..You now have a super-Netherlands that can be as evil as you like; you just need to "Add Instant Hitler" - perhaps following a WW1 type conflict - and away you go.
 

Infinity

Banned
Ravenous Dutch

Have them hunt natives for sport. Use their skin for handbags. Put jewels in their eyes, and collect their heads as a trophy. After getting bored hunting Aborigines, and Maori, have them move on to southeast Asia. Have them hunt these populations to extinction, and supplant their populations with their own people. Have the same happen in Africa, and the America's. If this isn't enough to make them the evilest nation of all time, make them cannibals too. If none of this gets much attention in Europe, then have them get blood thirsty for some mestizos and mulattos.
 
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