UK-French Special Relationship after 1956?

[Wolfpaw]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

And with someone as unscrupulous, bloody, and incompetent as Yasser Arafat as the major Soviet representative and if he follows his OTL pattern destabilizing every Arab country he encounters.....when the UK is forced out history would resemble OTL but on steroids and PCP and Marvel Universe gamma radiation.

Herut seems like it could become uncomfortably popular ITTL.

Iraq is a powderkeg, Syria is surrounded and likely to go Red, which means that the Kurds and PKK could become an even bigger issue for the Iran, Iraq and especially Turkey.

On the other hand, I would be interested to see how the North Yemeni civil war plays out without a Nasserite Egypt backing the revolutionaries.

[Archibald]

If you have any picture of these projects by Breguet i would be very intrested to see them.
Because, if they had no good projects, that means that all burden will fall on British backs...

Don't worry. Breguet literally invented the Mirage F1 a decade before Dassault - they randomly imagined a very smilar machine, although a naval fighter (France ultimately bought the Crusader for the role).

That was the Breguet 1120 Sirocco of 1959.

That thing had the potential to become Breguet's own Mirage. Now, with a little help from Great Britain, to replace the Saro SR-177...

Here's the Sirocco.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/foru...pic,142.0.html

[Russell]

Originally Posted by Archibald

Don't worry. Breguet literally invented the Mirage F1 a decade before Dassault - they randomly imagined a very smilar machine, although a naval fighter (France ultimately bought the Crusader for the role).

That was the Breguet 1120 Sirocco of 1959.

That thing had the potential to become Breguet's own Mirage. Now, with a little help from Great Britain, to replace the Saro SR-177...

Here's the Sirocco.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/foru...pic,142.0.html

That aircraft, or a navalised F1 would have a profound effect upon naval aviation around the world. One of the reasons that so many navies (Canada, Australia, Argentina) gave up naval aviation was because there was a lack of decent, small carrier aircraft to replace the likes of the Skyhawk. Many were forced to switch to the Harrier and STOL carriers. With such an aircraft about for small carriers, perhaps they last longer than OTL?

Russell

[Archibald]

Excellent, you read my mind ! In 1973 the Aeronavale studied a naval Mirage F1 with a more powerful engine - the F1 M53, that lost to the F-16 in the deal of the century the next year.
The STOLMirage F1 touched at 140 knots, unfortunately the Foch and Clemenceau needed 125 kt, and even the Crusader needed blown flaps for that.
The Sirocco would have been build for the Foch, from the start. It was a smaller and shorter machine than the Crusader, if only because the Atar 9 was smaller than the big J-57.
Not only Foch, then: there are Hermes (and consorts), and there's a large number of Essex carriers.

The Sirocco can cut its teeth as an anglo-french naval fighter, then, in 1963, the Armée de l'Air starts to be obsessed by VTOL / STOL fighters, leading to the three family of Mirages
- VTOL > Balzac, III-V
- STOL > Mirage F2, Mirage F1
- Variable Geometry: Mirage G and G8
What remained in the end (1973) was the STOL Mirage F1. The Sirocco can fill the gap a decade before !

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Russell

That aircraft, or a navalised F1 would have a profound effect upon naval aviation around the world. One of the reasons that so many navies (Canada, Australia, Argentina) gave up naval aviation was because there was a lack of decent, small carrier aircraft to replace the likes of the Skyhawk. Many were forced to switch to the Harrier and STOL carriers. With such an aircraft about for small carriers, perhaps they last longer than OTL?

Russell

Very intresting idea.

[abc123]

Hmm, does that means that AFVG is unnescesary?

Because, Buccaneer can fulfill the strike role and Scirocco can be fighter/recconaisance.
And essentially Buccaneer ( in naval and RAF variant ) and Scirocco ( in naval and RAF variant ) can be the mainstay of RAF/FAA during second part of 60s, 70s and even 80s.
And that would allready be time for a new project.

Maybe only Harrier more for RAF ( VTOL strike, for W. Germany ).

Would Sirocco be supersonic?

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by Wolfpaw

Herut seems like it could become uncomfortably popular ITTL.

Iraq is a powderkeg, Syria is surrounded and likely to go Red, which means that the Kurds and PKK could become an even bigger issue for the Iran, Iraq and especially Turkey.

On the other hand, I would be interested to see how the North Yemeni civil war plays out without a Nasserite Egypt backing the revolutionaries.

Sounds about right, yes.

[abc123]

If Nasser is ousted and Egypt defeated ( both militarly and diplomaticly by denying them right to what they want with Canal ) than Britain could have more influence on Iraq and in other parts of Middle East.

Also, development of Yemen without Nasser-backed civil war would be intresting. Could someone advise me about that?

Also, I presume that sucessful Suez and ousting of Nasser have butterflied UAR in 1958?

[lukedalton]

If Nasser is ousted and Egypt defeated ( both militarly and diplomaticly by denying them right to what they want with Canal ) than Britain could have more influence on Iraq and in other parts of Middle East

At least for another decade not more, but just some years more of playing the great powers game can create a very different military/industrial enstablishment in UK as the massive decrease of military capacity will not be an immediate option.
There is even the possibility that the UK will sent something in Vietnam to help the american (just to show the flag) or/and intercede with other Commonwelth nations to sent help

Also, development of Yemen without Nasser-backed civil war would be intresting. Could someone advise me about that?

Well for Egypt no involvment in Yemen is a very good things, as that was basically an enormous waste of men. money and material...someone even described as Egypt's Vietnam

Also, I presume that sucessful Suez and ousting of Nasser have butterflied UAR in 1958

?

In the sense that secular socialist nationalism has received a very hard blow even fatal, but as nature abhor vacuum it can be substitued with other things as a premature islamic fondamentalism or even their version of national socialism or hardline communism. In general the mood of the population will not very happy with the western powers and the goverment they put in powers so things can turn on the worse on the long term without some reform.

[Archibald]

Yes - Mach 2.2 class fighter.

Because, Buccaneer can fulfill the strike role and Scirocco can be fighter/recconaisance.
And essentially Buccaneer ( in naval and RAF variant ) and Scirocco ( in naval and RAF variant ) can be the mainstay of RAF/FAA during second part of 60s, 70s and even 80s.
And that would allready be time for a new project.

Sounds good.

Oh, and force the Buccaneer down the RAF throat if necessary - as much as I respect the TSR-2, the Bucc could do the job as well...

[abc123]

Originally Posted by lukedalton

There is even the possibility that the UK will sent something in Vietnam to help the american (just to show the flag) or/and intercede with other Commonwelth nations to sent help





In the sense that secular socialist nationalism has received a very hard blow even fatal, but as nature abhor vacuum it can be substitued with other things as a premature islamic fondamentalism or even their version of national socialism or hardline communism. In general the mood of the population will not very happy with the western powers and the goverment they put in powers so things can turn on the worse on the long term without some reform.

Involment of UK in Vietnam isn't quite probable after cold relations between USA and UK after Suez crisis.

About islamic fondamentalism, IMO there allways was a certain degree of islamic fondamentalism there, but since the money, weapons and training arrived from Soviets it had no such large role. Today, when there's no Soviet backing, islamic fundamentalism is the only thing remaining...

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Archibald

Yes - Mach 2.2 class fighter.

Sounds good.

Oh, and force the Buccaneer down the RAF throat if necessary - as much as I respect the TSR-2, the Bucc could do the job as well...

That would be a hard thing to do, but there's no sense in having Buccaneer and AFVG in the same time.
Big duplication of cost.
So, I'm even more inclined that either some sort of AFVG should be developed ( for strike role, because of Sirocco fulfilling fighter role ) or Vulcan B.3.
But UK would really need some sort of fighter-bomber ( multirole fighter, like Phantom ) and I don't know does Sirocco can be multirole?

[lukedalton]

Involment of UK in Vietnam isn't quite probable after cold relations between USA and UK after Suez crisis.

I know it's very difficult but the Vietnam war can make strange bedfellows as a UK still has interest in Malaysia and Burma and a communist expansion cannot be seen as a very good thing.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by lukedalton

I know it's very difficult but the Vietnam war can make strange bedfellows as a UK still has interest in Malaysia and Burma and a communist expansion cannot be seen as a very good thing.

Yes, but UK has full hands in Malaya and Borneo in that time, and also, it would be sheer lunacy to help US after such backstabbing at Suez.

[Archibald]

I don't know does Sirocco can be multirole?

As much as OTL Israel Mirage IIIs or Iraq Mirage F1EQ.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Archibald

As much as OTL Israel Mirage IIIs or Iraq Mirage F1EQ.

IIRC Mirage III isn't multirole aircraft?

Mirage F1 E is.

[abc123]

A question: Why did Britain choose Comet 4 as basis for Nimrod? There was VC10 that could do the same thing...
And there's more sense in helping VC10 ( new aircraft at that time ) by buying additional 50+ aircrafts than helping allready pretty unsucessful and dead Comet.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Originally Posted by abc123

A question: Why did Britain choose Comet 4 as basis for Nimrod? There was VC10 that could do the same thing...
And there's more sense in helping VC10 ( new aircraft at that time ) by buying additional 50+ aircrafts than helping allready pretty unsucessful and dead Comet.

IIRC the VC-10 was also evaluated but studies showed that the Comet's wing was better suited for the kind of low speed, low altitude flying carried out in ASW missions. But if Britain and France are jointly developing aircraft then I suspect that the RAF would buy the Atlantic.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

IIRC the VC-10 was also evaluated but studies showed that the Comet's wing was better suited for the kind of low speed, low altitude flying carried out in ASW missions. But if Britain and France are jointly developing aircraft then I suspect that the RAF would buy the Atlantic.

Or, why not use Bristol Brittania? Canadians made a pretty good MPA aircraft out of she.

I wonder, what would be the destiny of Mirage series if Sirocco is bought by France/UK?

[Wolfpaw]

Originally Posted by abc123

I wonder, what would be the destiny of Mirage series if Sirocco is bought by France/UK?

Sold to Israel, probably. Or Belgium.

I wonder how the Congo Crisis will play out ITTL.