ww1: the scandinavian front

Tyr

In the early 20th century Sweden was very German friendly, Norway meanwhile was very Britain friendly, even being called the neutral ally for its conduct in the war.
The two were of course also friendly with each other. And neither wanted a war.
Nonetheless...there was a significant Swedish speaking population still in the historically Swedish Finland, currently a duchy of the, by the end of the war, rapidly declining Russian empire. Sweden jumping in the war would still not be a sane and popular move in Sweden but then that's what challenges are for.

How could we get it so that Norway ends up joining the entente officially whilst Sweden is in the allies?
Could lead to quite an interesting phony war where neither really wants to attack the other, much to the annoyance of their bigger ally.
 

Revolutionary Avocado

I'm no expert on either the area or the region, but here goes.

A republican revolution occurs in Norway. The new government, desperate for foreign assistance, is offered recognition by the Allies in exchange for a declaration of war on the Central Powers and naval basing rights. The Norwegian royal family, which has fled to Sweden, convinces a nervous Swedish monarchy to intervene in Norway, with German aid. The militarily superior Swedes quickly defeat poorly co-ordinated and supplied Norwegian rebel armies, but are invaded by a Czarist Russia desperate for victories. This causes Sweden to turn east and engage the Russians, bogging them down in the north. A major defeat causes riots in Russian cities, sparking a slightly earlier revolution.

After the end of the war, Sweden, which has not suffered any real military defeats but has failed to re-instate the Norwegian monarchy, accepts a peace of the pre-war status quo, with a Norwegian Republic and Finland ruled as a joint Anglo-Swedish League of Nations mandate.
 

TheHumblePoet

Admiral Essen a Russian,who was about to destroy the Swedish fleet was recalled at the last moment. It's an interesting PoD that's not very well
known. If he goes forth, it could have brought Sweden into the war quite early, creating a front in Finland
 

eliphas8

There are some issues here since all the Scandinavian country's had been influenced by Sweden who where insistant on peace.
 

Timmy811

TheHumblePoet said:
Admiral Essen a Russian,who was about to destroy the Swedish fleet was recalled at the last moment. It's an interesting PoD that's not very well
known. If he goes forth, it could have brought Sweden into the war quite early, creating a front in Finland
Click to expand...

I agree, this is the easiest and most plausible way for the war to be expanded to Scandinavia. It would result in Sweden and likely Denmark joining the Central Powers while Norway would end up in the Entente.

Also, it would be a big black eye for the Entente's propaganda if the Russians preemptively attack a neutral power after the Brits made such a big deal over the German's invasion of neutral Belgium.
 
von Adler

von Adler

TheHumblePoet said:
Admiral Essen a Russian,who was about to destroy the Swedish fleet was recalled at the last moment. It's an interesting PoD that's not very well
known. If he goes forth, it could have brought Sweden into the war quite early, creating a front in Finland
Click to expand...

No, he was not. He was about to attack Fårösund, at which he wrongly had intelligence that the Swedish navy was concentrated. At the time, there were maybe half-a-dozen of armed trawlers and 3rd class torpedo boats at Fårösund. It has never been a major Swedish naval base.

In reality, the Swedish navy was conducting exercises in the Stockholm archipelago. Admiral von Essen intended to send a destroyer squadron to mine the archipelago, to sink any ships that got away from his attack and were trying to limp back to Stockholm. It is entirely possible that this destroyer squadron would run into the Swedish navy.
 

Timmy811

Well if he sinks those and his destroyers run into the main force that would still be enough to drag Sweden and possibly the rest of Scandanavia into the war.

Whether just Sweden joins the Central Powers, or the war spreads and Norway joins the Entente and Denmark the CP, I think that it is probably a net benefit to Germany. They will win or lose the war and the diversion of Entente resources to Scandanavia should be to their benefit.
 

Mikestone8

Timmy811 said:
Well if he sinks those and his destroyers run into the main force that would still be enough to drag Sweden and possibly the rest of Scandanavia into the war.

Whether just Sweden joins the Central Powers, or the war spreads and Norway joins the Entente and Denmark the CP, I think that it is probably a net benefit to Germany. They will win or lose the war and the diversion of Entente resources to Scandanavia should be to their benefit.
Click to expand...


Why would Norway be any more likely to join the Entente? The last thing she will want is war with another Scandinavian country. I'd have thought it would harden her neutrality, though I agree she has too many economic ties with Britain to seriously consider joining the CP.

Not so sure about Denmark, but I suspect even the Germans might prefer her to stay neutral, to provide a leak in the blockade.
 
von Adler

von Adler

It is quite possible that Sweden would go to war with Russia over this. But Norway will not join the entente. They have nothing to gain from it and a lot to lose.
 

Fabilius

Let´s see, which are closer friends... Sweden, Norway and Denmark, or Norway and Britain.

No way Norway goes to war against Sweden. No way unless the Pod is earlier.

Also a republican revolution is nearly unthinkable since the king has neither power nor unpopularity.
 

Henriksson

I have quite a suspicion Sweden will be embroiled in the myriad of revolutions that took place during and after the great war.
 

Kippari

That would have very interesting consequences regarding the Finnish independence. It depends on the POD quite a lot though. Finland nevertheless had a strong independence movement brewing even before the war so i'd doubt that Swedish annexation would be much of a welcome change even if Russia collapses. We could however see some of the Finnish generals and soldiers on different sides of the war as in OTL. The thing is though, that Sweden is very hard to invade from the east as the northern route is a logistical problem and hard terrain makes it slow to advance. Southern route requires naval landings which are also hard and suspectible for naval interdiction. This works the other way around too. In the east however the CP powers would receive popular support against the Russian oppression policies.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Kippari said:
That would have very interesting consequences regarding the Finnish independence. It depends on the POD quite a lot though. Finland nevertheless had a strong independence movement brewing even before the war so i'd doubt that Swedish annexation would be much of a welcome change even if Russia collapses. We could however see some of the Finnish generals and soldiers on different sides of the war as in OTL.
Click to expand...
I think the Swedes might have settled with the Åland islands and an independent Finland with some relative of the Swedish monarch as king.
 
DrakonFin

DrakonFin

yourworstnightmare said:
I think the Swedes might have settled with the Åland islands and an independent Finland with some relative of the Swedish monarch as king.
Click to expand...

This.

And quite likely some sort of trade and customs deals beneficial to Sweden. Some common defensive arrangements will happen, too, but this will cause much wrangling in the coming decades.

Pushing for anything more would be counterproductive because of Finnish nationalist recalcitrance and the power parity between Stockholm and Helsinki. This necessarily is a relationship between a (small-to-)middling power and its newly free small neighbour, not an Old Empire Resurgent!-type scenario.
 
Oddball

Oddball

We have had this discussion several times before, it realy show how little most people understand about Norway during this periode. :(

Ill just state the following:

In 1914 Norway does what GB wants here to do. Norway was not a neutral allied, she was a Brittish puppy. Period.
 

Mikestone8

Oddball said:
We have had this discussion several times before, it realy show how little most people understand about Norway during this periode. :(

Ill just state the following:

In 1914 Norway does what GB wants here to do. Norway was not a neutral allied, she was a Brittish puppy. Period.
Click to expand...



Even to the point of committing suicide?

If Sweden is with the CP, and Norway joins the Entente, she is liable to get what Belgium got. I doubt if her pro-British leanings would extend that far.
 

Daylight Savings

Mikestone8 said:
Even to the point of committing suicide?

If Sweden is with the CP, and Norway joins the Entente, she is liable to get what Belgium got. I doubt if her pro-British leanings would extend that far.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Without British material support at the very minimum I can't see even a puppet state acceding to declaring war on a larger more powerful neighbor who entered the war when their neutrality was violated by the puppeteer's ally.
 
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