Islam Christian Switch

Is it at all possible to have Christianity take off in the middle east and islam dominate europe? Now i know its possible to have the muslims conquer europe (i mean they almost did). But is it possible with a POD around say 800 a.d. where the two switch.

Also, do you think europe would still expand into the great colonial empires?
 
Is it at all possible to have Christianity take off in the middle east and islam dominate europe? Now i know its possible to have the muslims conquer europe (i mean they almost did). But is it possible with a POD around say 800 a.d. where the two switch.

Also, do you think europe would still expand into the great colonial empires?

Well, Islam originated in the Middle East, so naturally they would control it, and thus be largely Islamic. I don't think this switch is really plausible. There's the very faint possibility of an Islamic Europe, but no contemporary Christian Middle East...
 
I doubt with 800 AD, but if you put it a bit earlier, maybe Byzantium could hold why Spain falls, and then France falls, and the Muslims start pushing east, then Byzantium somehow grabs the Levant and Mesopetamia, but it seems really implausible.
 
Not uber-difficult, IMHO.

Simply have an Islamic conquest of Francia, that expands out gradually into Italy and Germany, with pagan Vikings to complete the conquest of Scandinavia and Britain. The Slavic peoples will eventually follow.

Meanwhile, have Byzantium survive, and go back on the offensive from 900, again, roughly as OTL. Have this Byzantine offensive be succesful enough to expel the Muslims entirely from Syria and Egypt. Combine this with (why not) Christianised Turks taking over Mesopotamia and Persia.

Done. :)
 
Not uber-difficult, IMHO.

Simply have an Islamic conquest of Francia, that expands out gradually into Italy and Germany, with pagan Vikings to complete the conquest of Scandinavia and Britain. The Slavic peoples will eventually follow.

Meanwhile, have Byzantium survive, and go back on the offensive from 900, again, roughly as OTL. Have this Byzantine offensive be succesful enough to expel the Muslims entirely from Syria and Egypt. Combine this with (why not) Christianised Turks taking over Mesopotamia and Persia.

Done. :)

Could make for a fun reverse crusade scenario.
 
I don't understand why people think that it would be so easy for Islam to break free of Spain and conquer Europe. Maybe Southern France, but the Caliphate was overextended in Spain, and that could cause it to collapse. Basically when Islam has its momentum, it's not a possibility due to the problems of control the Caliphate faced- much of its domains were away from easy communications and transportation routes like the Mediterranean, and later on when it could be more feasible with smaller states, it's not going to happen because the momentum had been lost, and France/Francia was too strong to be overwhelmed.
 
Not uber-difficult, IMHO.

Simply have an Islamic conquest of Francia, that expands out gradually into Italy and Germany, with pagan Vikings to complete the conquest of Scandinavia and Britain. The Slavic peoples will eventually follow.

Meanwhile, have Byzantium survive, and go back on the offensive from 900, again, roughly as OTL. Have this Byzantine offensive be succesful enough to expel the Muslims entirely from Syria and Egypt. Combine this with (why not) Christianised Turks taking over Mesopotamia and Persia.

Done. :)

Is that assuming that there's no eastern expansion under the Caliphate? If there was none, then there still would be a Sassanid state...
 
Is that assuming that there's no eastern expansion under the Caliphate? If there was none, then there still would be a Sassanid state...

I'd put the POD for this mini-TL somewhere in the eighth century, so, no, Iran would still be initially conquered by the Arabs in this scenario, but that wouldn't last for too long.
 
Well, Islam originated in the Middle East, so naturally they would control it, and thus be largely Islamic. I don't think this switch is really plausible. There's the very faint possibility of an Islamic Europe, but no contemporary Christian Middle East...


Iran and indonesia would probably be the southern islamic religions.

But i'm not talking about there being whites in the middle east and arabic peoples in europe i mean if say islam spreads up through spain, maybe instead of spain being conquered its just Islamized. the king becomes a muslim.

then i think other kingdoms will follow, especially the Germanic ones that reject Rome. They could essentially still speak the same languages, i wonder what a muslim europe would be like once it colonizes the world, and how many more holy wars would be raged.

As for christianity i like the idea of the Byzantines bringing Christianity to the turks who go on to create a christian ottoman empire. after several christian caliphates (don't know what else to call them) spread christianity to northern africa, middle east, and indonesia.
 
I don't understand why people think that it would be so easy for Islam to break free of Spain and conquer Europe. Maybe Southern France, but the Caliphate was overextended in Spain, and that could cause it to collapse. Basically when Islam has its momentum, it's not a possibility due to the problems of control the Caliphate faced- much of its domains were away from easy communications and transportation routes like the Mediterranean, and later on when it could be more feasible with smaller states, it's not going to happen because the momentum had been lost, and France/Francia was too strong to be overwhelmed.

The challenge never says that all of the Islamic world has to be under the control of one Caliphate though.
 
When else is Islam going to be able to conquer Francia?

I don't know, I'm fairly ignorant of the time period. But couldn't local Islamic rulers expand into France+Europe at some point? Failing that, there are other ways for religion to expand without conquest.
 
I don't know, I'm fairly ignorant of the time period. But couldn't local Islamic rulers expand into France+Europe at some point? Failing that, there are other ways for religion to expand without conquest.

Well, France has historically been a pretty strong state (Yes, there have been times of weakness BUT) There are not going to be a lot of opportunities, if any, for a Islamic Spanish ruler to slip in. And Christianity was entrenched in both church and state in Europe, it would take nothing short of conquest to drive it out.
 

amphibulous

Banned
Not uber-difficult, IMHO.

Simply have an Islamic conquest of Francia, that expands out gradually into Italy and Germany, with pagan Vikings to complete the conquest of Scandinavia and Britain. The Slavic peoples will eventually follow.

Meanwhile, have Byzantium survive, and go back on the offensive from 900, again, roughly as OTL. Have this Byzantine offensive be succesful enough to expel the Muslims entirely from Syria and Egypt. Combine this with (why not) Christianised Turks taking over Mesopotamia and Persia.

Done. :)

Yes - and all you need to make that work is for the Byzantines to get nuclear weapons. It sometimes happens to me in early medieval times if I build the "Oxford University Wonder" when I'm playing Civilization - then all I need is a Great Builder to instant-complete the item, because the astronomical number of build points which would otherwise be required would take centuries.

More subtly, the Byzantines lost large parts of their territory because they were occupied by Christian Monophysites. These people were repressed by the Empire's dominant theological faction, and had a lot in common with Islam - so they switched sides. If a suitable variety of xtianity was being persecuted in the West instead and decided to become part of the Muslim world, then that would work.
 
After the 8th century AD a Christian Middle East is a possibility, though a remote one. It would probably take the conversion of the Turkic tribes to Christianity, or await the coming of the Mongols, and coincide with a remarkable revival of the Roman Empire, and a long succession of Emperors seeking to follow in Trajan's footsteps with the same passion that their OTL counterparts debated iconography.

A Muslim Europe is unlikely, but not impossible. If Constantinople is somehow taken, and if the Slavs follow Islam, I can see it as possible, though not likely that Christianity could be squeezed out of existence between the vice of Moorish Spain and Muslim-Slavic Russia.

But to switch places I think would be impossible. There really would be no precedent for such an occurrence in all recorded history. Would Darius III have abandoned his heartland to conquer Greece and Macedonia while Alexander was away with his army? And would Alexander be content to conquer the other man's empire in his absence, and decide to consolidate his recent conquests and leave his land of birth to be ruled by his archenemy.

Even if their respective leaders were prepared to accept such an arrangement, the soldiers and colonists who would have to go along with such a plan would not.

Islam could possibly exist with its heart (Mecca) ripped out and the Arabs, who were very much the beating heart of Islam for the first few centuries. But no European fighting force could be sustained in the Middle East without the continued support of Europe. The Arab conquerors were at least fighting for greener pastures.

European conquerors of the Middle East would soon fade in importance like the Greeks who settled the lands of the Diadochi after Alexander. A Christian, European Elite might control the cities, and rule over the country as feudal lords, but that is not a lasting system for bringing about a long-term change of religion in a populace.
 
Is it at all possible to have Christianity take off in the middle east

Technically, Christianity DID take off in the Middle East. However, the world the apostles knew was a Greek and Roman world. They traveled the world they knew, so that's where Christianity grew fastest. Thereafter the cultural barriers look too high.
 
I don't know, I'm fairly ignorant of the time period. But couldn't local Islamic rulers expand into France+Europe at some point? Failing that, there are other ways for religion to expand without conquest.

yeah thats kind of what i was going for, the european kingdoms being islamized instead of conquered. that is there king becoming islam, therefore making it the official religion of the state.

then there could be crusades against Christianity. Although its possible the mid eastern Christians could lead a crusade into Europe. But i don't really see the point unless they just want to conquer.
 
yeah thats kind of what i was going for, the european kingdoms being islamized instead of conquered. that is there king becoming islam, therefore making it the official religion of the state.

then there could be crusades against Christianity. Although its possible the mid eastern Christians could lead a crusade into Europe. But i don't really see the point unless they just want to conquer.

Islam would not have expanded naturally into Europe. Christianity was a fabric of the governmental and social life by that point, and there's very little likelihood of any kingdoms converting.
 
Could make for a fun reverse crusade scenario.

I actually have a Muslim Europe, Christian Middle East scenario that's exactly this. I think I last posted it here in 2004.

Heraclius stays in North Africa. Constantinople falls to the Avars and Persians and the Arabs conquer the overextended Western Persian territories, but the Persians survive in the east and the now-free Egyptians prevent the Arabs from entering Africa. They enter Europe via Greece and eventually defeat the Avars.

The nomads that enter Europe--the Magyars and Bulgars--convert to Islam. The pagan Germans and Norse do as well, with the Franks hemmed in and ultimately destroyed. Iberia, Britain, and Ireland remain Christian, but that's about it.

Meanwhile, the horse nomads of Inner Asia convert to Nestorian Christianity. Eventually they invade the Middle East through Persia and occupy everything east of the Suez, including Mecca and Medina.

In the great mosques of al-Italia, Firanji, etc., a great Jihad is preached...
 
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