Europe Post 1918

[chris N]

This is a different version of Europe with a peace being achieved before the entry of the US into the war. Germany has lost its lands in the West to France as the price for a peace. There is rumbling in Germany as very few are happy with the leadership of the Kaiser during the war. German victory in the East has seen a break up of the Russian Empire and the creation of a lot of new nations. The Soviets seem to have gained the upper hand in the ongoing Civil war with the Whites.
The Emperor Karl has managed to get a peace agreement that did not prevent all of the empire from falling apart. He has held the Germans, Czechs and the Slovenians together but the Hungarians have pulled away. Karl is sure that they will come back as he fears this will just trigger another war between Hungary and Romania. There are also Red Forces at work in Hungary.
The Ukraine has manage to survive although many wonder if it will stay a monarchy or become a Republic. Poland had seized part of Russia but has been unable to gain an outlet to the Sea. The British refused to prolong the war any longer than they had to and even France was too war weary to want to fight any longer.
In Greece the forces pushing for Greater Greece have managed to capture European Turkey and want to invade Asia Minor. But already word is coming of a new Turkish leader that is pulling together the collapsing Ottoman Empire Part that was Turkey.
Britain and France have shared the spoils of the Ottoman Empire.

[chris N]

For Many th News that was printed in the papers all over the world that the "War to End All Wars" was over was greeted with great happiness. But for millions that joy would never be felt or heard. Some wonder what did we all fight about. The returning BEF came home to find that while they had been fighting in France there had been a war in Ireland. The Irish War of Independence had started on Easter Sunday in 1916 and had been going on ever since.. Mistakes had been made on both sides but the British people were determined to fight no more war and so a peace treaty was to come about.
In Germany there had been a naval revolt among some of the Kaisers sailors and the Army had held to restore order. There had been some battles instreets between forces of the left and those of the right. For a brief period Germany was a Republic before the forces of the Right moved and restored the Monarchy. The Crown Prince of Bavaria had restored order in his native Bavaria ad had assumed leadership in bringing peace and order to the country. The Kaiser had fled to the Netherlands and there was little desire to see him of his son put back on the Throne.
To the East the Red Army was still overcoming the Whites for the battle to control Russia.
Georgia had proclaimed Independence as had Armenia. The Armenians and the Turks were fighting and the Greeks had also entered the War by invading Asia Minor. There were cries of a Greater Greece.
In Italy the Italians were also stiring. Italy had suffered a Major defeat in 1917 and it had knocked it out of the War and lead to the collapse of the pro-war government. The Italians had designs on Asia Minor and they also had claims on parts of Greater Serbia.
The Hapsburgs had a hold on Poland as one of their Archdukes was its King. Indeed it was this king who was preventing the Polish Army from controlling the country. The King pointed that the threat to the country from the East was real and as soon as the soviets were in firm control they would turn their attention to the West and to the Lands that had broken away.
Meanwhile on the other side of the Atlantic. The Wilson Administration was on shaky grounds. President Wilson had sent the US Army into Mexico to stop the Raids by bandits into the US. It had been ging on for the past 2 years..
Across the Pacific China was in the throws of Revolution as the forces in that nation struggled to unite the country and to overthrow foreign control. The new Nationalist were fighting to overthrow the warlords and already it was clear that Japan was casting Hungry eyes on China.
Indeed it was only US threats latter joined by the British and french that had forced japan to withdraw its list of demands first imposed on China in 1916.
In Hungary the Communist government was finally overthrown but there was a war with Romania to be fought. Finally Britain and France pressured both sides to end it

[chris N]

1919 -1920 With the exception of fighting in Asia Minor and in Russia things began to settle down in Europe. In Poland the King finally convinced the Army that it should be preparing for a possible war with Russia rather than attempting to control the government.
The Ukrainian Army staged a coup in the Capital of Kiev and installed their commander, who happen to be the son of the Polish King.

[abc123]

I'm pretty sure that independant Ireland would be impossible ITTL, something like French attitude towards Algeria after the loss in WW2.

[chris N]

Ireland was granted its independence by the British by the early 1920's. The British public could not stand another war and the British were not winning the Black and the Tan struggle so it is possible. The only thing that I have change is Ireland is united. Thus no Northern Ireland enclave.

This whole timeline is a different take on Europe after the Peace Talks and has quite a few differences to start off with.

[chris N]

Germany: Crown Prince Rupprecht of Bavaria and seemingly emerged as the man of the hour. He had yet to sieze the Imperial Crown but he had managed to emerge as one of the few people who could unite the military and the Nation. As a result Politicians and the Military began to defer to him and he was asked to become head of the Regency Council. Unlike Crown Prince Wilhelm he was popular within the Army and had had an ability to get things done.. The Bavarian did not care for Ludendorf finding him to be arrogant and somewhat of a fanatic. While he got along with Hindenburg, who was still revered by the nation he did not believe that the man was suited to running either the Army or the Nation.
Below the Man of the Hour the Bavarian Crown Prince.

[pike]

I like the idea of a greater Greece of the 20 century has always been a great intrest of mine.

[chris N]

The Greeks were now embarking on a serious project the reconquest of Asia Minor and the Establishment of a Greater Greece. They had gained some support from the British and the French but if they over-reached they stood a great chance of ending up in the same position as in our time line. Kemmal Ataturk was a serious soldier and he was also a Brilliant one. Greece had gained little experience in the war. Its army had loads of British and French equipment but it was not as battle trained as the Turkish Army.

[chris N]

Greek advance into Asia Minor. The Greeks wjile confident were finding that Turkish resistance was a lot tougher than expected/ In addition Support from the British and French was beginning to wane in 1920 and would grow even weaker as the year drew on.

[Karogas]

A united Ireland would quickly dissolve into one of the nastiest Civil Wars of the Century its not something that can be butterflied away with pod so recent.

[Ulster]

Originally Posted by chris N

Ireland was granted its independence by the British by the early 1920's. The British public could not stand another war and the British were not winning the Black and the Tan struggle so it is possible. The only thing that I have change is Ireland is united. Thus no Northern Ireland enclave.

You can't simply butterfly that away with "Thus no Northern Ireland". Immediately before World War I there were tens of thousands of men drilling in Ulster ready to fight the British if they were made subject to a Dublin Parliament. If they're chucked into an independent Irish Republic for no apparant reason then it is going to be an unbelieveably bloody conflict, especially considering the sectarian nature the OTL Anglo-Irish War/Irish War of Independence sometimes took (for example, how quickly Ireland's long-standing Protestant population dropped to just 3% of the whole as Protestants were either killed or forced to emmigrate to the North or Britain). More to the point the British wouldn't simply throw Northern Ireland away. The pre-war Conservatives had made the whole Ulster Unionist "Ulster will Fight and Ulster will he right!" thing one of the biggest political issues of the day. It would not do well for them if they just let Ulster, whether in four, six or nine county form, slip away without fighting for it.

I do find it rather irritating when people just paintbucket Ireland green instead of researching

[abc123]

Originally Posted by chris N

Ireland was granted its independence by the British by the early 1920's. The British public could not stand another war and the British were not winning the Black and the Tan struggle so it is possible. The only thing that I have change is Ireland is united. Thus no Northern Ireland enclave.

This whole timeline is a different take on Europe after the Peace Talks and has quite a few differences to start off with.

Well, "war" in Ireland was not quite like war in Northern France. There were guerilla attacks and assasinations by IRA, but with stronger police-military comittment by the British ( and with naval blocade of Ireland by RN ) UK could suceed in implementing OTL Goverment of Ireland Act 1920.

The Act divided Ireland into two territories, Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland, each intended to be self-governing, except in areas specifically reserved to the Parliament of the United Kingdom: chief amongst these were matters relating to the Crown, to defence, foreign affairs, international trade, and currency.

[chris N]

Okay a revision of the map with The Northern Ireland enclave restored,

[chris N]

The Greek invasion of Turkey initially went in Greece's favor. This was partly do to the factor that the Ottoman Empire had been crushed and Turkish Nationalist were just organizing.

[NoMoreSanity]

Oh there is going to be so much genocide if Greece succeeds. Which is unlikely, given both Ataturk and the Turkish people's resistance to Greek invasion. I see this either ending in a bloody stalemate for the Greeks, ending with them either withdrawing to pre-war borders, or holding on to Thrace. The latter is going to end in a LOT of ethnic cleansing though. *Gulp.*

Perhaps if Bulgaria is relatively stable, they can see this as an opportunity to strike at the Greeks while they're at their weakest? I'm unsure of what the peace treaty with Bulgaria entailed, but I can still see them taking this chance to strike while the Greeks backs are ripe for stabbing. I highly doubt France and Britain would intervene, seeing their lack of intervention already, so I see that as a high possibility.

Also, quick questions. How did Hungary retain Croatia, which was either going to be granted to Serbia or at least wanted independence? My knowledge of Croatia is lacking, but one of the few things I do know is that they really didn't want to be tied to Hungary. Plus with the general unrest in Hungary, them holding onto Croatia seems very unlikely.

I'm also wondering how Finland got ALL of Karelia. The Soviets must be very distracted. Once the civil war is finally over though, I can expect them to go knocking on Finland's door much sooner then in our timeline.

Also, dear god Italy looks like it got no territory at all, not even the territory it did gain out of the war. Mussolini and the irredentists is practically going to be handed power due to this, I'm sure.

[chris N]

Finland gained the additional territory as a result of the Collapse of Russia. Also in this time line the Germans supplied far more arms and training to the fledgeling Finnish Army.
I fully expect that the Soviets will be occupied with a lot of problems that will give the Finns a lot more time. The Ethnic Germans have been fleeing Russia as they have no desire to remain in a country ruled by the reds.
As for Greater Serbia they did not get Croatia as a result of the peace settlement in fact there was a more reasonable peace. France got back what it wanted most and the British didn't give a dam about the Serbs , who they felt had started this mess to begin with.
However, expect the size of Hungary to shrink in the coming years. The Hungarians are now it a weak position as a result ot the civil war and then the brief conflict with Romania.
Either Croatia will join the Austrian Federal Empire or it will become independent.
the Serbs are looking at Albania and thinking that they might grab it but the same thought is taking place in the Kingdom of Italy.
As for the Greek-Turkish war I expect that it will be bloody. Personally I think that the Greeks had better be very careful because if they don't limit themselves history might very well repeat itself.
Bulgarian ships have been shipping German arms to the Turks viva the Black Sea and even German arms are flowing through the Austrian federal Empire and are traveling. to southern Turkey

[chris N]

The conflict in Greater Hungary from 1919-1920 resulted in the Croatians seeking independence from Hungary. They appealed to Kaiser Karl of Austria for protection. In an odd move Karl was offered the throne of Croatia but with the provision that Croatia have its own Parliament and military. The Austrian leader accepted but offered to grant then an independent monarch if they so wished.
Some in Hungary expressed the wish that they be reunited with the Empire as conditions in the country were pretty bad.
In Poland the General wanted to absorb Lithuania and thus gain an oulet to the Baltic. King Stefan told them that they had enough to worry about with the Reds to the east without creating more problems.

[NoMoreSanity]

Originally Posted by chris N

Finland gained the additional territory as a result of the Collapse of Russia. Also in this time line the Germans supplied far more arms and training to the fledgeling Finnish Army.

Considering how bad the domestic situation probably is in Germany, giving help to the Finns won't make the current government more popular. Plus Finland just taking Karelia, which has very rough terrain that is horrid for an army to go through, must have either been an enormous feat of luck, or a huge display of incompetence on the Soviets part.

I fully expect that the Soviets will be occupied with a lot of problems that will give the Finns a lot more time. The Ethnic Germans have been fleeing Russia as they have no desire to remain in a country ruled by the reds.

Huh, considering that even in OTL the Volga Germans stayed under the Reds until the Great Patriotic War, I find them leaving kind of weird.

As for Greater Serbia they did not get Croatia as a result of the peace settlement in fact there was a more reasonable peace. France got back what it wanted most and the British didn't give a dam about the Serbs , who they felt had started this mess to begin with.

Seeing as Austria was the one to declare war on the Serbs, it seems Austria got off with a slap in the face in comparison. Plus it makes France and Britain look like they don't give a shit about their allies (Italy and Serbia in this case). Even if Italy did collapse, which I find... unlikely, they would still be granted territory in order to weaken the belligerent power of Austria.

However, expect the size of Hungary to shrink in the coming years. The Hungarians are now it a weak position as a result ot the civil war and then the brief conflict with Romania.

That's reassuring I guess.

Either Croatia will join the Austrian Federal Empire or it will become independent.

I'd recommend independence honestly, I don't see why they would want to trade one master for another.

the Serbs are looking at Albania and thinking that they might grab it but the same thought is taking place in the Kingdom of Italy.

Interesting, another Balkan War could result from this.

As for the Greek-Turkish war I expect that it will be bloody. Personally I think that the Greeks had better be very careful because if they don't limit themselves history might very well repeat itself.

Well, you're writing this, how well they do depends on what you want to write. I'm hoping Kemal can force the Greeks out though, the Greeks taking Thrace alone will spark much more ethnic conflict then in OTL.

Bulgarian ships have been shipping German arms to the Turks viva the Black Sea and even German arms are flowing through the Austrian federal Empire and are traveling. to southern Turkey

Excellent, if the Turks force the Greeks out of Asia minor, Bulgaria and Italy can pounce on the crippled and vainglorious Greece. Even if the Greeks do 'win' the war, they will most likely be way too weakened and unstable to prevent any Bulgarian and Italian irredentist claims (Well, not so much irredentist as semi-legitimate land claims for the former).

Originally Posted by chris N

The conflict in Greater Hungary from 1919-1920 resulted in the Croatians seeking independence from Hungary. They appealed to Kaiser Karl of Austria for protection. In an odd move Karl was offered the throne of Croatia but with the provision that Croatia have its own Parliament and military. The Austrian leader accepted but offered to grant then an independent monarch if they so wished.

That's... unlikely, but okay I'll go with it.

Some in Hungary expressed the wish that they be reunited with the Empire as conditions in the country were pretty bad.

Austria cannot be doing that better, seeing as how they lost a war too, plus they still have all the ethnic tensions that have got to be bubbling.

In Poland the General wanted to absorb Lithuania and thus gain an oulet to the Baltic. King Stefan told them that they had enough to worry about with the Reds to the east without creating more problems.

Revived Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? Ooh, I like. Such a union could deter any individual German and Russian ventures into their land. Does Lithuania have Klaipeda (Memel) in this timeline? I can't tell from the map.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by chris N

Either Croatia will join the Austrian Federal Empire or it will become independent.

It all depends about who's in charge in Croatia.
If you ask Pure Party of Rights ( minority ) it will be staying with Austria.
If you ask Croat-Serb Coalition ( majority ) they will want to unite with Serbs.

But, there's a problem with Italy. Italy will want borders from Treaty of London.
And exactly that Italian threat could force Croats to stay with Austrians if they don't want to lose Dalmatia and other Adriatic areas.


Also, I know that it's some sort of canon on this forum, but name "Austrian Federal Empire" is absolutly impossible. Czechs and Croats don't feel themselves as Austrians. Some other name would be nescesary. Austria can be coloquial name of that country, but formal name should be different, my proposal: Austrian-Czech-Croatian Monarchy. Basicly, same deal as in 1867. only this time without Hungarians, but with Czechs and Croats.
;-)

[chris N]

The Croatians decided that it made more sense to Join with the Austrian--Czech- Slovenian Union. The New Entity officially renamed the Austro-Czech-Croatia Union.
As for Germany by the fall of 1919 it had stabilized and conditions were improving. The economy was picking up and unemployment was down. The Peace treaty that had been signed in 1918 had been negoiated by all of the parties. Italy had been left out as it had sued for peace in 1917 and thus was out of the war. Still there was a feeling in Italy by some that they had been stabbed in the back by their allies. Forget the fact that the Italian Army's attempt to break the Austro-Hungaian Empire had been a disaster. And all of the aid that Britain and Frnace had given the Italians. Italy was angry with the Serbs. Serbia had taken a good chunk of Bosnia and Montenegreo . It was the grabbing of the latter part that had cause a lot of resentment as the late Monarch of Montenegreo had been related to the Italian Monarch. Thus Italy had a claim.
The Peace treaty did not lay the blame for the war on any nation. Germany was required to pay a small amount of repairations to repair damage but nowhere near the amount in OTL.
The Regency Council in Germany was still trying to decide whether to allow a referendum on a Hollenzollern Restoration or to ask its head to assume the post after a vote by the people.