The Power and the Glitter!

[Kalvan]

The mid-nineties is the middle of Mickey Rourke's drug problem. He only got cleaned up in time for Marv.

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Glen

No offense meant, phx, but have you read The Dark Knight Returns?

None taken, because I haven't. In which case I should, perhaps, shut up. (Not a fan of Miller. Didn't like his Wolverine at all.)

Originally Posted by Glen

Yep, good point.

TY. I take all of my offers as suggestions, not demands. (Sometimes strong suggestions, but when I'm really eager for it, I'll tend to say so.)

Originally Posted by Glen

Powers Boothe.

Now there is somebody I'd use for the earlier Bats. IDK about darker...

[Glen]

Phx it matters not how you feel about Miller in general - The Dark Knight Returns is required reading. Trust me. Go read it. Now.

[Falkenburg]

Originally Posted by Glen

Phx it matters not how you feel about Miller in general - The Dark Knight Returns is required reading. Trust me. Go read it. Now.

Heartily seconded. As far as graphic novels go it's right up there with Maus (if for very different reasons).

Falkenburg

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Falkenburg

Heartily seconded. As far as graphic novels go it's right up there with Maus (if for very different reasons).

Falkenburg

Tnxs for the confirmation there Falkenburg.

[Kalvan]

It's pretty good, but Frank Miller seems to have a major mad-on for Superman, which given Supes' usual politics in the mainstream DC continuity (Especially as this is at or around the time of Man of Steel) makes absolutely zero sense.

Frankly, since using Captain Atom (Who is an actual Air Force Captain and whose politics in-continuity are somewhere to the right of Pat Buchannon) would step a little too much on Alan Moore's toes, I would have chosen a grown-up Freddy Freeman Captain Marvel II(III?), after joining joining the College Republicans at Ferris State or Miami of Ohio.

[Glen]

I am okay for epic mythic coolness with the use he puts that character to,Kalvan, even if I agree that he is really positing a different persona, though perhaps not a different distorted perception if you know what I mean.

[Brady Kj]

This movie is supposed to be in the future, and in the same continuity as the original Batman. Jack Nicholson was born in 1937, so an older actor would be ideal. But if they don't go for an older actor, there certainly are a lot of good alternatives.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Brady Kj

This movie is supposed to be in the future, and in the same continuity as the original Batman. Jack Nicholson was born in 1937, so an older actor would be ideal. But if they don't go for an older actor, there certainly are a lot of good alternatives.

Personally I could see Mickey Rouke more as the Joker than the Batman in The Dark Knight Returns, except that I always imagine the Joker with some high-pitched, crazy voice.

[jack_donaghy_is_the_shado]

Harrison Ford?

He'd be in his fifties, just coming off Last Crusade, still in pretty good shape, and he's already had experience with dark, gritty, futures.

And, yes, I am listening to some John Williams music

[jack_donaghy_is_the_shado]

Originally Posted by Glen

Personally I could see Mickey Rouke more as the Joker than the Batman in The Dark Knight Returns, except that I always imagine the Joker with some high-pitched, crazy voice.

How about Mark Hamill?

[Glen]

Originally Posted by jack_donaghy_is_the_shado

How about Mark Hamill?

Well we know he can pull off the voice - he'd have to go darker than ever before.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by jack_donaghy_is_the_shado

Harrison Ford?

He'd be in his fifties, just coming off Last Crusade, still in pretty good shape, and he's already had experience with dark, gritty, futures.

And, yes, I am listening to some John Williams music

Too slight a build for what I would expect.

[Brady Kj]

Originally Posted by Kalvan

It's pretty good, but Frank Miller seems to have a major mad-on for Superman, which given Supes' usual politics in the mainstream DC continuity (Especially as this is at or around the time of Man of Steel) makes absolutely zero sense.

The bizarre Superman caricature in the Dark Knight Returns is one of the several reasons I've never read it. I did read a few pages, and then I flipped through random pages in the rest of the series to look for any changes in quality. Upon deciding that the quality is maintained pretty consistently throughout, I put the book down and walked away.

Originally Posted by Kalvan

Frankly, since using Captain Atom (Who is an actual Air Force Captain and whose politics in-continuity are somewhere to the right of Pat Buchannon) would step a little too much on Alan Moore's toes, I would have chosen a grown-up Freddy Freeman Captain Marvel II(III?), after joining joining the College Republicans at Ferris State or Miami of Ohio.

I'm guessing the new version would have all other superheroes removed. However, Captain Atom would be interesting, and I certainly wouldn't count it as stepping on Moore's toes.

[ColeMercury]

Just caught up. Love it.

Originally Posted by vultan

Ideally, this is how the run of Babylon 5 would look: everything the same up until the fourth season, which solely consists of the Shadow War and it's resolution, the resolution of the Earth Civil War in the very last bit of season 4, then the first third or so of season 5, all of the the important plot points of the first half of season 5 (the rogue telepath arc, errr... there wasn't much else) condensed into several episodes at the middle (more than doable) then the Centauri War/Drakh-possession-of-Londo storyline goes more or less as per OTL.

Of course, in a world where entertainment is changed heavily in the 1990's (well, the initial POD is a political one, and the effects don't really trickle down into entertainment until 199), there may be a couple curveballs, some minor changes here and there. No one seemed to notice, after all, that I had Moloch in Watchmen portrayed by Andreas Katsulas, so maybe season 1 on B5 is slightly G'kar-light compared to OTL (not nearly as bad as Data in TNG, but enough to abort that stupid episode where G'kar is targeted for assassination amid all the religious festivals on the station...)

I liked "The Parliament of Dreams"!

And a word about the structure of seasons 4 and 5: I seem to recall that the first half of the Drakh-presence-on-Centauri-Prime storyline from season 5 was originally meant to go in season 4 -- that's why the Regent gets a Keeper so early in that season yet we hear nothing more about it for another year. When the planned arc for season 4 needed to be shortened by 4 episodes (to make room for "Between the Darkness and the Light", "Endgame", "Rising Star" and "Sleeping in Light") JMS simply removed that entire subplot as it was least relevant to the show as a whole. Then when TNT picked up the show for a fifth season he took the opportunity to put it back in.

Speaking of which, if you do give Babylon 5 a trouble-free run then who broadcasts the fifth season? Does PTEN survive past 1997? Or maybe Warner Brothers moves Babylon 5 to The WB?

[vultan]

The Cast of The Dark Knight

The big question on the mind of every Hollywood insider (and comic book fan) throughout 1993 and 1994 was, “Will Michael Keaton return as Bruce Wayne?” Despite the financial success of the Batman film series, the actor was actually giving mixed messages to producers and reporters alike when asked the question. Keaton did not want to be “married” to the franchise for the rest of his acting career, and wanted to pursue more interesting roles while he still had it left in him. Reportedly, he wanted to see a screenplay that gave the Caped Crusader a bit more limelight. In the words of one production insider “Let's face it, the Batman movies are about who's playing the villains — and there's Michael stuck in a rubber suit.” [1] Even when it became clear that Tim Burton was being “kicked upstairs” in regards to the next film and that Sam Raimi would be handed the director’s chair, it would be months before a definitive decision was announced. As a contingency plan for Keaton not returning, several actors were considered to replace him, including Bruce Willis, Daniel Day-Lewis, and Michael Madsen.

However, despite being mum with the public in early 1994 regarding his role in The Dark Knight, Keaton had been in talks with both Sam Raimi and Tim Burton regarding the story. He was impressed by the plot of The Dark Knight Returns, seeing it as an interesting development of the Batman character. Despite the loss of Burton as director, with Raimi he felt a sense of continuity with the rest of the series, feeling that he could give a satisfactory conclusion to the trilogy. On July 1st, 1994, Michael Keaton officially announced that he would be joining the cast of The Dark Knight. (Incidentally, this was the same day as the release of James Cameron’s Watchmen, which is generally credited with starting “The Superhero Craze” of the 90’s. Keaton maintains to this day that he hadn’t seen Watchmen until later on, and that it did not affect his decision to don the Batsuit for another bout.)

By this time, preproduction had begun in earnest, and the rest of the cast was being filled out. The first major role to be filled that of Harvey Dent/Two-Face, the Gotham District Attorney-turned-schizophrenic and scarred supervillain who made all of his decisions based on the flip of a coin. In the story of the comic, his face was repaired by plastic surgery (the procedure was actually paid for by Bruce Wayne), only to forever erase his “good” personality, becoming a ruthless and amoral criminal known as “the Face”. Though Billy Dee Williams had been cast in the role of Harvey Dent for Batman, Raimi used it the role as an opportunity to cast a good friend of his: Evil Dead star Bruce Campbell (when questioned on the consistency problems of casting two different actors for the same role in a film series, Campbell replied “Hey, they gave Harvey a new face- why couldn’t it have been mine?”) After the critical and commercial success of Watchmen, which Campbell had also starred in as the vigilante The Comedian, this casting came became of subject of heavy attention in the entertainment industry, and is generally thought to have increased anticipation for the film. It also did much to raise Campbell’s own profile, allowing his transition from B-movie actor to A-lister.

Prior to Keaton’s entry, most of the cast was in place. Michael Gough and Pat Hingle returned as Alfred Pennyworth and Commissioner Gordon, respectively. The role of Ellen Yindel, who over the course of the comic replaces the aforementioned James Gordon as Commissioner and is initially suspicious of “the Batman’s motives”, became a minor point of contention between Raimi and the studio during the screenwriting process. Unlike the last two films, the screenplay carried no female love interest for Bruce Wayne, and studio heads wanted to see Yindel reworked into this. Both Raimi and Burton balked at this prospect, with the latter commenting “…it was not what we were aiming for.” It was only when Michael Keaton told the studio in the summer that he wanted Yindel “…played like (the) comic or I’m out”, that they acquiesced. Mad About You actress Helen Hunt was cast. For the leader of the street gang coalition plaguing Gotham City (replacing “the Mutants” gang in the comic, which Raimi felt was unrealistic and distracting), Burton fought for and landed Marlon Wayans in the part. Wayans had been promised the role of Robin in the third Batman film after his character was deleted at the last minute from the script of Batman Returns, but since Robin was not a male in this version, he was given another role (to combat any unfortunate implications from casting an African-American as a gang leader, the decision was made to make the gang as multiracial as possible). In the role of Oliver Green/Green Arrow, who leads a life of rebellion against the oppressive government after they banned superheroes, little-known television actor Jonathan Goldsmith was cast. And as Carrie Kelly, the young girl who fills the role of Robin for Bruce Wayne so many years after Jason Todd, the original, was killed, a then-unknown 13 year-old named Kirsten Dunst was cast.

Still, even after the casting of the protagonist, two controversies in the casting were still unsolved (and needed to be solved fast if Raimi hoped to start filming in August). The first was that of the Joker. In the continuity of the Batman film franchise, he had been unambiguously killed at the end of the first movie. While that was not an especially big problem in-and-of itself (they don’t call it “comic book deaths” for nothing), the main issue was the actor who portrayed him in Batman: Jack Nicholson. Generally agreed to be one of the best actors working, he was also one of the most expensive. He had only agreed to do the first movie for a huge sum of money (eventually ending up in the range of $60 million, unadjusted), and with a more epic scale (and bigger budget) for The Dark Knight, Burton was hesitant to even call Nicholson up. When he did, he balked: the actor wouldn’t do it for any less than $100 million. However, when told he wouldn’t be cast, Nicholson was graceful, and even suggested a possible solution to the problem after he was told the synopsis. In his idea, Jason Todd really wasn’t killed, but Batman thought he was. Instead, he was captured by the Joker prior to the events of 1989’s Batman (nevermind the continuity problems, Jack was on a role) and tortured by him incessantly until a sort of “super-Stockholm syndrome” took place, and Jason Todd, the former Robin, became the next Joker! [2] This would be revealed to Bruce Wayne during the final Joker/Batman fight as a twist. Burton and Raimi liked the idea so much that they called up Frank Miller to see if he accepted the change to his idea, and he agreed enthusiastically (half-jokingly suggesting that Nicholson should be given a screenwriting credit for coming up with the idea). Since this version of the Joker was supposed to be far more menacing and psychopathic than anything audiences had seen on screen before, they needed an actor who could instill a real sense of dread. For Raimi, the choice had become obvious: Ralph Fiennes, who had acquitted himself as a thespian capable of portraying pure evil in the part of Nazi war criminal Amon Goeth in Schindler’s List. Fiennes signed on shortly after Keaton did.

The final issue was that of who would portray Superman. Here, everyone was in agreement. The studio, Burton, and Raimi all badly wanted Christopher Reeve, who had made his name portraying the Man of Steel for the highly lucrative Superman film series. The screenwriting team had been especially adamant in this regard, feeling that Superman’s reveal would have more meaning f he was being played by the actor that audiences had become accustomed to in the part. However, Reeve was less than ecstatic about taking the role again. He had been badly typecast as Clark Kent, and his acting career outside of the franchise had suffered for it (though to be fair, this could also be attributed to his habit of turning down many roles). He thought the media circus that would ensue as a result of his casting would hamper any efforts to find other, more serious work. However, Bruce Campbell made an interesting suggestion to Raimi. He mentioned that during the production of Watchmen, when Mark Hamill was cast as the vigilante Rorschach, it had been suggested by producer Joel Silver that the studio not announce who was portraying the role beforehand, so that the audience would be shocked by the reveal of the actor. While the idea was ultimately not used Campbell “figured it would work better here”. This way, Reeve would be spared the media attention during the filming and post-production process, and his role would ultimately be more of an “Easter egg.” When Reeve heard the suggestion, he was intrigued, and liked the nature of the reveal. The script was in his opinion much better than anything the Superman series had produced lately, and would give the character a bit of closure. In the end, Christopher Reeve agreed to take the part, on the condition that his salary would match that of Michael Keaton’s ($10 million).

With that, the main cast of The Dark Knight was finally filled out. Filming could now commence.

...

[1] OTL quote from this article.
[2] Partially based on a Batman storyline.

---

Already off the bat this casting decisions will affect the productions of several movies and TV shows that debuted historically in 1995, from The Wayan Bros. to Jumanji to Strange Days. Along with some butterflies for other places, this will be a fun year for entertainment...

Anyway, thoughts? Comments? Critiques?

[Brainbin]

Always great to see this timeline back again!

Originally Posted by vultan

As a contingency plan for Keaton not returning, several actors were considered to replace him, including Bruce Willis, Daniel Day-Lewis, and Michael Madsen.

Would I be right in guessing that this list is taken from OTL candidates for Batman Forever? If so, three words. Why Val Kilmer?

Originally Posted by vultan

(Incidentally, this was the same day as the release of James Cameron’s Watchmen, which is generally credited with starting “The Superhero Craze” of the 90’s. Keaton maintains to this day that he hadn’t seen Watchmen until later on, and that it did not affect his decision to don the Batsuit for another bout.)

Uh-huh, sure thing there, Mikey (Odd that, IOTL, he wants to participate in a Beetlejuice sequel, called Beetlejuice Goes Hawaiian).

"Really, didn't we say all we needed to say with the first Beetlejuice? Must we go tropical?"

- Kevin Smith (from a conversation sadly expunged from TTL, starting at about 1:00; language NSFW).

Originally Posted by vultan

Though Billy Dee Williams had been cast in the role of Harvey Dent for Batman, Raimi used it the role as an opportunity to cast a good friend of his: Evil Dead star Bruce Campbell (when questioned on the consistency problems of casting two different actors for the same role in a film series, Campbell replied “Hey, they gave Harvey a new face- why couldn’t it have been mine?”)

Excellent role for Bruce Campbell, which was inevitable given the presence of Raimi as director, and (as you note) will cement his status as A-list star (and what a world, one in which Bruce Campbell is an A-list star). Something you might want to note is that Billy Dee Williams signed a pay-or-play contract, which means that the producers had to foot the bill for him anyway, despite recasting (as IOTL). Presumably, Campbell would therefore be paid the least of any of the major players (excluding Dunst, of course), which is likely anyway because of his close friendship with Raimi. Which reminds me - what role are you going to give Ted?

Originally Posted by vultan

Unlike the last two films, the screenplay carried no female love interest for Bruce Wayne, and studio heads wanted to see Yindel reworked into this. Both Raimi and Burton balked at this prospect, with the latter commenting “…it was not what we were aiming for.” It was only when Michael Keaton told the studio in the summer that he wanted Yindel “…played like (the) comic or I’m out”, that they acquiesced. Mad About You actress Helen Hunt was cast.

Good on Keaton for holding out. Boy, were those love interests unnecessary (especially in the Schumacher movies, but the only one who really mattered anyway was Catwoman, who never even got a movie of her own IOTL. Which reminds me...) I'm very iffy on the casting of Helen Hunt, who as an actress very much defines "one-note", but maybe she'll be exposed as the weak link in the vein of Katie Holmes (or Sharon Stone ITTL), which might spur those involved with the creative process to cast stronger female roles.

Originally Posted by vultan

For the leader of the street gang coalition plaguing Gotham City (replacing “the Mutants” gang in the comic, which Raimi felt was unrealistic and distracting), Burton fought for and landed Damon Wayans in the part. Wayans had been promised the role of Robin in the third Batman film after his character was deleted at the last minute from the script of Batman Returns, but since Robin was not a male in this version, he was given another role (to combat any unfortunate implications from casting an African-American as a gang leader, the decision was made to make the gang as multiracial as possible).

Glad to see Wayans get his chance, except that it was Marlon, not Damon

Originally Posted by vultan

And as Carrie Kelly, the young girl who fills the role of Robin for Bruce Wayne so many years after Jason Todd, the original, was killed, a then-unknown 13 year-old named Kirsten Dunst was cast.

In lieu of her OTL breakthrough in Interview with a Vampire, I presume? (Which reminds me, how did that film do ITTL?)

Originally Posted by vultan

Since this version of the Joker was supposed to be far more menacing and psychopathic than anything audiences had seen on screen before, they needed an actor who could instill a real sense of dread. For Raimi, the choice had become obvious: Ralph Fiennes, who had acquitted himself as a thespian capable of portraying pure evil in the part of Nazi war criminal Amon Goeth in Schindler’s List. Fiennes signed on shortly after Keaton did.

I like the different take on Joker's origins for this film, and overall you've created a really believable "fusion" of The Dark Knight Returns with the Burton films. What's interesting about the casting of Fiennes is that, IOTL, he did his best to avoid the outright villainous roles after his bravura turn as Goeth (his next major role was, of course, the ambiguous Count Laszlo de Almasy in that legendarily boring epic, The English Patient), finally throwing up his hands when he accepted the role of Voldemort for the later Harry Potter films IOTL (odd in that, beforehand, many fans would have preferred him for the role of Remus). ITTL, I think he's sealed his fate as the "heavy" much sooner.

Originally Posted by vultan

He mentioned that during the production of Watchmen, when Mark Hamill was cast as the vigilante Rorschach, it had been suggested by producer Joel Silver that the studio not announce who was portraying the role beforehand, so that the audience would be shocked by the reveal of the actor. While the idea was ultimately not used Campbell “figured it would work better here”. This way, Reeve would be spared the media attention during the filming and post-production process, and his role would ultimately be more of an “Easter egg.”

The levels of subterfuge required to pull this off will be much tougher than it would have been for Hamill, because: it's a few years later, Eternal September has happened, the World Wide Web is more entrenched, and, most importantly, Reeve is everyone's first choice for the part. He'll have to be sneaked on and off set, they'll need decoys galore, they'll be on constant watch for paparazzi ... at best, it'll be the worst-kept secret in Hollywood and everyone involved will be issuing constant non-denial denials. That said, maybe a touch of (very tenuously) plausible deniability is all they need. I do agree that Reeve would take the part if he were offered the same salary as Keaton.

Also, it is truly awesome to see Reeve!Superman and Keaton!Batman going head to head

Originally Posted by vultan

Along with some butterflies for other places, this will be a fun year for entertainment...

I completely agree! I can't wait to see more, as always. Terrific update! Still looking forward to seeing what you have in mind for Mark Hamill...

[vultan]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Always great to see this timeline back again!

Thanks!

[QUOTE] Would I be right in guessing that this list is taken from OTL candidates for Batman Forever? If so, three words. Why Val Kilmer? [QUOTE]

Actually, as far as I know, only one of the three listed was (Day-Lewis).

Uh-huh, sure thing there, Mikey (Odd that, IOTL, he wants to participate in a Beetlejuice sequel, called Beetlejuice Goes Hawaiian).

"Really, didn't we say all we needed to say with the first Beetlejuice? Must we go tropical?"

- Kevin Smith (from a conversation sadly expunged from TTL, starting at about 1:00; language NSFW).

Hilarious video. Thanks for sharing!

Excellent role for Bruce Campbell, which was inevitable given the presence of Raimi as director, and (as you note) will cement his status as A-list star (and what a world, one in which Bruce Campbell is an A-list star). Something you might want to note is that Billy Dee Williams signed a pay-or-play contract, which means that the producers had to foot the bill for him anyway, despite recasting (as IOTL). Presumably, Campbell would therefore be paid the least of any of the major players (excluding Dunst, of course), which is likely anyway because of his close friendship with Raimi. Which reminds me - what role are you going to give Ted?

Martian Manhunter makes a cameo. Needs an actor in heavy prosthetic makeup, of course.

Good on Keaton for holding out. Boy, were those love interests unnecessary (especially in the Schumacher movies, but the only one who really mattered anyway was Catwoman, who never even got a movie of her own IOTL. Which reminds me...) I'm very iffy on the casting of Helen Hunt, who as an actress very much defines "one-note", but maybe she'll be exposed as the weak link in the vein of Katie Holmes (or Sharon Stone ITTL), which might spur those involved with the creative process to cast stronger female roles.

Hey, we can't always have a perfect cast. Also, I kind of like Hunt.

Glad to see Wayans get his chance, except that it was Marlon, not Damon

Goes back and rereads own update

Huh, you'd think I would have fixed that in proofreading...
Fixed.

In lieu of her OTL breakthrough in Interview with a Vampire, I presume? (Which reminds me, how did that film do ITTL?)

About the same as OTL, really.

I like the different take on Joker's origins for this film, and overall you've created a really believable "fusion" of The Dark Knight Returns with the Burton films. What's interesting about the casting of Fiennes is that, IOTL, he did his best to avoid the outright villainous roles after his bravura turn as Goeth (his next major role was, of course, the ambiguous Count Laszlo de Almasy in that legendarily boring epic, The English Patient), finally throwing up his hands when he accepted the role of Voldemort for the later Harry Potter films IOTL (odd in that, beforehand, many fans would have preferred him for the role of Remus). ITTL, I think he's sealed his fate as the "heavy" much sooner.

You didn't think his role in Red Dragon was villainous? I mean, yeah, he's somewhat sympathetic, but he was pretty terrifying.

The levels of subterfuge required to pull this off will be much tougher than it would have been for Hamill, because: it's a few years later, Eternal September has happened, the World Wide Web is more entrenched, and, most importantly, Reeve is everyone's first choice for the part. He'll have to be sneaked on and off set, they'll need decoys galore, they'll be on constant watch for paparazzi ... at best, it'll be the worst-kept secret in Hollywood and everyone involved will be issuing constant non-denial denials. That said, maybe a touch of (very tenuously) plausible deniability is all they need. I do agree that Reeve would take the part if he were offered the same salary as Keaton.

Did I ever say it had to be successful?

The main analogy I'm thinking of is how they tried to hide the Godzilla design for the Roland Emmerich movie, but it got leaked beforehand. Bear in mind also, the guys making Tropic Thunder (and that came out only a couple years back_ were almost successful in hiding Tom Cruise's role until release day. Almost.

We'll have to see how this turns out.

Also, it is truly awesome to see Reeve!Superman and Keaton!Batman going head to head

Of course, of course

I completely agree! I can't wait to see more, as always. Terrific update! Still looking forward to seeing what you have in mind for Mark Hamill...

It may be several weeks until the next update, I'm not sure. I'll try to see if I can have something quick in the next several days, but no promises...

(And don't worry, I have not forgotten about Hamill)

[krinsbez]

Originally Posted by vultan

[2] Partially based on a Batman storyline.

You'd better be referring to Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker.

Because no other story wherein the Joker turns out to actually be a former Robin exists.

[vultan]

Originally Posted by krinsbez

You'd better be referring to Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker.

Because no other story wherein the Joker turns out to actually be a former Robin exists.

Sorry for not being specific in this regard. The comic where I got the idea from (and no, I have not read the actual comic, but I read over the synopsis) was from the All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder series, also written by Frank Miller, but released well after the POD of this timeline. In it, it's actually Batman's cruelty that turns him into a new Joker. Of course it's not the same circumstances in the movie, but it's the same general idea.

That clear everything up?