With a POD no later than 1420 but no earlier than 1395 AD, let Novgorod stay independent and not become absorbed by the other Russian principalities. Try to do it as plausibly as possible, take the economic vulnerabilities into account (Novgorod needing to import quite a lot of grain, mainly from the more southern Russias), but let Novgorod survive in such a shape that it can keep independence or re-establish it after a few (say, 10) years of domnation by another neighbouring country.
Challenge : Surviving Novgorodian independence
- Thread starter Petike
- Start date
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Not sure if Novgorod could be the dominant force to unite the Rus' lands though.
With PoD later than 1395 "other principalities" can mean only
Muscovy ( or Lithuania if it counts as Russian principality). But in
fact I believe that Novgorod is doomed to be swallowed by Muscvovy
if it is not overrun by Lithuania or Tartars. If Muscowy is
destroyed by Lithuania than Novgorod will be the next ( and MUCH
easier) target. With Tartars conquering Moscow( which I believe
rather implausible ) Novgorod can stay for a while but it's future
won't be to bright- Tartars would control grain supplies of
Novgorod( as Muscovy did ) and the trade route that went through
Novgorod would definitely lose it's importance if other Russian
principalities( i. e. Muscovy) are destroyed. And without this route
the territory of Novgorod are just a lot of frozen forests.
If Muscovy is not destroyed I can't see any chances for Novgorod to
remain independent- not that it was much weaker economically or
demographically but as I already mentioned Muscovy controlled grain
supply of Novgorod plus Novgorod had much worth leadership. I'm more
or less convinced that any oligarchic republic is weaker than
centralized state with comparable resource base. In late Middle Ages
only Venice managed to remain independent past late Middle Ages but
it had absolutely unique location. But if I can believe in surviving
Genoa or Gansa Novgorod is absolutely unviable state- the state was
absolutely military incapable ( events such as Battle of Shelon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shelon leave no space for
Novgorodwanks ).
However if there is a chance for Novgorod after 1395 it is also
after 1420. If Muscovite Civil war was even worse and if Shemyaka
wins the end of Novgorod may be somehow delayed.
But as I said in my opinion ondly massive ASB can leave Novgorod independent for a long time.
Thanks, I'll try to ponder if temporarily weakening Muscovy could give Novgorod some breathing space. Mind you, I'm not trying to do a wank. It can loose some of its territory, but I'm more interested in it surviving at all.
And I'm interested in making Russia a bit more fractured and less Moscow-dominated than in OTL anyway.
The civil war you mentioned seems the only non-ASB option. Tatars conquering the place is a little far-fetched and wouldn't suit my plans for the TL.
And I'm interested in making Russia a bit more fractured and less Moscow-dominated than in OTL anyway.
The civil war you mentioned seems the only non-ASB option. Tatars conquering the place is a little far-fetched and wouldn't suit my plans for the TL.
Snake Featherston
Banned
A surviving Novgorod is difficult to do, so long as the POD includes a Khanate of the Golden Horde, and even arguably without it. Novgorod was more decentralized and oligarchical than say, Moscow, and an equivalent Russian state that's far more centralized and warlike (say, a Qin China or USA-in-NA analogue) will defeat it due to superior organization. Novgorod can certainly last a bit longer than it did as an independent state, but it won't survive long if a sufficiently warlike and centralized rival among the other post-Kievan principalities shows up. And if it's not Moscow it could easily be Tver.
You are welcome, but if you want Russia to exist but to be less
dominated by Muscovy in my opinion the only chance is earlier PoD.
Since middle XIV Muscovy is "unite Russia or die". Muscovian
conquest of North Eastern Russia ( including Novgorod) can be
prevented only by destruction of Muscovy and that means( in XVth
century or later) the destruction of any Russian state.
If I were you I would try earlier( at least before Dmitry Donskoy)
PoD and Russia united by some other principality( say Tver or
Ryazan). But I believe that either this state will be as centrilazed
as Muscovy or it will be absorbed by it's neighbors- Northern
Eastern Russia is a very poor place with unfertile earth very little
resources except forests which are not in deficit before 17th-18th
centuries. In fact all late Middle Ages are very russowank( or
muscovy wank if you prefer ). Russia was surrounded by several
neighbors stronger both in economical and demographical ways. It
could survive only because EVERY single Muscovian prince since XIII
century was at least better than average, because Muscovy was fully
centralized and could develop pomestye system( in which evere singe
noble was fighting 6-9 month a year)- a medieval form of total
mobilization. Without these factors I believe any state consisting
only of Northern Eastern Russian principalities is doomed.
So any other Russian principalities should become very Moscowlike or
will be destroyed and the only good alternative of Russia is
Lithuania. In fact GDoL was a Russian speaking state and if it
conquers Muscovy and other principalities it can provide an
excellent possibility for non Moscowlike Russia.
Other good possibility has yet more earlier PoD ( but it's still
post Mongol). This alternative is Bryansk-Chernigov principality. It
was quite strong but was destroyed by Toqta forces because it was
allied to Nogai. So if you make it ally with Toqta instead or make
Nogai win the struggle you get another center of power in Russia. If
you are interested in this alternative I can send you a book on
Bryansk principality( but that's in Russian, sorry).
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yourworstnightmare
Banned
Well, if you are able to postpone Novgorod's demise a little, perhaps Sweden would take Novgorod under her wings when they expand their power in the Eastern Baltic Sea during the late 1500 and early 1600s.
If a later PoD would be allowed perhaps Sweden and Poland would split Russia into two separate kingdom through some PoD during the Time of Troubles, with Sweden proclaiming a Kingdom of Novgorod with Prince Carl Filip on the throne (the Prince they wanted to make Czar).
If a later PoD would be allowed perhaps Sweden and Poland would split Russia into two separate kingdom through some PoD during the Time of Troubles, with Sweden proclaiming a Kingdom of Novgorod with Prince Carl Filip on the throne (the Prince they wanted to make Czar).
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Novgorod was REPUBLIC. Princes were elected and could easily be
impeached.
You all make valid points. Yeah, it's certainly not the easiest of scenarios, especially in this timeframe I gave you.
You know, besides the Lithuanian option, would it be possible for Novgorod to ally with another Russian neighbour and "backstab" Muscovy's unification efforts ?
Mind you, we can butterfly certain events by killing off various rulers (and when I mean various, I don't just mean Moscowian ones - I don't want this to be a Muscovy-screw, I'd prefer a Muscovy-nerf).
You know, besides the Lithuanian option, would it be possible for Novgorod to ally with another Russian neighbour and "backstab" Muscovy's unification efforts ?
Mind you, we can butterfly certain events by killing off various rulers (and when I mean various, I don't just mean Moscowian ones - I don't want this to be a Muscovy-screw, I'd prefer a Muscovy-nerf).
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Let's see. Chernigov, Ryazan, Vladimir-Sudzal and Smolensk are probably the best bets for Novgorod's partners to nerf Muscovy.
Wolfpaw
Banned
There was a prince of Novgorod, but no permanent local dynasty, which meant that in reality the (often foreign) princes had very little power and were even subject to removal by the veche. As for Aleksandr Nevsky, Novgorodians loathed him.
The best bet would be for the princes of Tver to not consistently fuck up in front of the Khan and wrest the yarlyk away from the Daniilovichi.
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I agree but as I wrote in that case Tver will replace Moscow and eventually will annex Novgorod. If there will be balance between Tver and Moscow( or any other configuration of princedoms without a supreme leader) Lithuania will eat all of them. So to save Novgorodian independence you must have balance of power in North-East Russian principalities AND no Lithuania( or more precise no united state in North-West Russia). But such a Russia without even a local leader will easily be swollen by it's neighbors( Tartars or Poles or Teutons or Sweden).
I don't think so. Novgorod's problem wasn't lack of resources- it was lack of political willpower and military ability( which is a direct consequence of political system- oligarchic republic isn't good for anything except filling coffers of upper classes; but for this purpose it's the best choice and that is the reason why changing it without very dramatic evens ( like long civil war or smth) is unlikely).
heck out my tl basically Ivan takes command of Moscow forces at the battle of Shelon which ends in his defeat and death. This angers the Moscow boyars leading to some of them ordering the deaths of the royal family which in turn leaves a power vacuum as Mucovy falls into a terrible civil war that destroys it economically, politically, and militarily and Novgorod seizes the chance and launches an all out assault on Muscovy taking all of it before Lithuania had a chance to mobilize its own armies due to the fact that Lithuania under Poland was busy fighting tartars and Teutons.
An earlier opening of the northeadt passage by Engl
ish or Flemish/Dutch merchants might solve alot of Novgorods problems especially the grain dependency an the prices they could sell fur an amber to the scandinavians an hanse.
It also would allow lots of new ideas to penetrate russia earlier.
ish or Flemish/Dutch merchants might solve alot of Novgorods problems especially the grain dependency an the prices they could sell fur an amber to the scandinavians an hanse.
It also would allow lots of new ideas to penetrate russia earlier.
Of course. That's one of the reasons I want to leave Novgorod independent for a far longer period of time.