CH: Soviets Don't Treat Conquests Badly

[Killer300]

Okay, basically, the Soviet army DOESN'T rape and pillage the countries they enter. How? That's why this is a challenge.

Goal is to have no noticeably large amounts of rape from the Soviet military. Looting is fine, however not on such a scale that it causes the countries they enter to hate them.

This will probably require a rather far back POD, so I'll be interested to see what's came up with.

[wormyguy]

Two things caused the bad behavior on the part of Soviet troops:

1. The absolute devastation inflicted on the USSR by the German invasion (compared to which the Soviet retaliation appears positively restrained by comparison).

2. Most of the more professional/disciplined soldiers and officers were killed in the purges or Barbarossa, and the Soviet army was largely made up of illiterate peasants from remote parts of the USSR and bottom-of-the-barrel types by '45.

[Ptolemaios]

At this point the Soviets were willing to drink Axis blood, so you'd need a POD that somehow stops the Germans from killing Slavs en masse. A massively unsuccesful Barbarossa could do the trick, as it prevents the Germans from getting far enough into the Union to start wrecking everything. How to accomplish this is another question, however.

[carlton_bach]

If you are only concerned with individual war crimes - rape, murder and personal looting - I think the POD would simply be: the leadership decides it's worth the effort to put a lid on it. The Soviet government did not lose control of its army, it decided to relax it on this point. A contrary decision would be fairly easy. The question, of course, is why they would want to do that, given what they had just gone through.

The other side of the question is, of course, that even if the Soviets decide to treat their conquests well by their own standards, it will feel like unalloyed horror to many of their victims. Life as a Soviet citizen was no bed of roses.

[B_Munro]

Not to mention the Poles already come (justifiably) pre-prejudiced against Russian rule.

Bruce

[Killer300]

Originally Posted by Ptolemaios

At this point the Soviets were willing to drink Axis blood, so you'd need a POD that somehow stops the Germans from killing Slavs en masse. A massively unsuccesful Barbarossa could do the trick, as it prevents the Germans from getting far enough into the Union to start wrecking everything. How to accomplish this is another question, however.

That's actually quite doable. Hell, I have three different PODs for that here.

1. Stalin doesn't come to power, and the Head of the Soviet government controls the military better.

2. Stalin decides to limit the impact of the purge on the Soviet military, preserving its effectiveness.

3. Soviets mobilize IMMEDIATELY when the Nazis invade, unlike in OTL.

The last might prevent encirclements, which will preserve many Soviet troops.

[Snake Featherston]

A simple means to do this is to have the Soviets win the war faster, for which the best POD is the Battle of Moscow. If the Soviets there by a combination of luck and Nazi mistakes wipe out Army Group Center, there goes Germany's war effort far faster than IOTL and as it crumbles the Soviet Union's atrocities are lesser from as much of a desire to minimize the upheaval portended by the invasion to the Stalinist system in the USSR proper and in its new buffer zones as any non-existent good will on the part of the Soviet higher-ups. Admittedly for this to happen at Moscow relies on the right combination of Nazi mistakes and some of the luck that favored them IOTL to flip to the Soviets.

[1337indahouse]

Tell the Nazi Germans not to invade USSR.

Also remember OTL Soviet occupation of eastern Europe depended. Ie Bulgaria got off way light from USSR as opposed to Romania. Countries that were willing allies with Nazi Germany got fucked over in revenge way harder than forced allies. Do something To make Romania less interested (ie no severances of bessarbia and Moldova by USSR under Molotov Ribbentrop) and fix the problems that led to Humgary's more involved actions.

Also do something to keep Finland from joining in the Blockade of Leningrad. Try a peaceful means of expanding the buffer state and when that fails dont invade them.

[MerryPrankster]

The Soviet occupation of Afghanistan was fairly brutal OTL, with deliberate attempts to wipe out or expel the rural population, electric torture, etc.

Maybe they just stay in the cities and leave the country to the Afghan Communists to deal with? The natives at least won't have the "foreign invader" thing causing them PR problems.

[The Red]

Surely it's oxymoron for 'conquests' to be treated well even in theory.

Have Stalin die late into WW2, Beria takes over and leads a somewhat more sensible war effort, not needlessly throwing Soviet resources into battles they don't need to win e.g Berlin. At Yalta/Potsdam the Eastern Europe is 'Finlandised' in exchange for Marshall Plan aid.

[Grimm Reaper]

In exchange for an aid plan which doesn't even exist yet?

As for Beria...the top Marxists had to kill him when Stalin had died, which does not suggest he could be expected to behave sensibly, not to mention that he would certainly not be allowed to take over militarily once Stalin was gone.

[The Red]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

In exchange for an aid plan which doesn't even exist yet?

The guy was an evil sociopath, but a pragmatic one according to some sources.

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

not to mention that he would certainly not be allowed to take over militarily once Stalin was gone.

His not intervening would be more effective in itself than Stalin's meddling.

[Grimm Reaper]

I don't think any source ever presented him as pragmatic and his fate shows that the top Soviets didn't believe any such thing, killing him when he chose to march in and succeed Stalin.

[The Red]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

I don't think any source ever presented him as pragmatic and his fate shows that the top Soviets didn't believe any such thing, killing him when he chose to march in and succeed Stalin.

Part of the main charges against him were his radical proposals to improve relations with other powers.

[Grimm Reaper]

The charges/concern was that he was a murderer who the others trusted about as well as I would trust a cobra in my underwear...

[The Red]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

The charges/concern was that he was a murderer who the others trusted about as well as I would trust a cobra in my underwear...

I think the trust issue was the main thing, the fact that those who untied against him would probably all have very short life expectancy's if Beria one out. The plotters who brung him down weren't exactly choir boys, I doubt the mass murderer issue mattered that much to them.

[wormyguy]

Originally Posted by 1337indahouse

Also do something to keep Finland from joining in the Blockade of Leningrad. Try a peaceful means of expanding the buffer state and when that fails dont invade them.

Well Finland got off lighter from the USSR than any other German ally they got to.

[The Red]

Originally Posted by wormyguy

Well Finland got off lighter from the USSR than any other German ally they got to.

Arguably Bulgaria got a better deal, they kept their territorial gains and could thus be seen as the most successful Axis nation.

[Urban fox]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

The charges/concern was that he was a murderer who the others trusted about as well as I would trust a cobra in my underwear...

I think that was the main point here.

Beria according to many accounts wasnt a Marxist like Khrushchev or Molotov etc, he cared only about his own power position. In that sense he was utterly pragmatic.

[MerryPrankster]

Any comments on my suggestion for Afghanistan?

I remember seeing a post-1991 interview with some elderly Soviet guy who described how the Soviet intervention came on gradually based on requests for more and more aid and soldiers from the Afghan Communist regime.

(Well, before the full-on invasion took place.)

If someone in the Politburo decides "THIS FAR AND NO FARTHER," they might end up with some agreement to garrison the cities and let the locals deal with the guerrillas in the countryside.