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  #141  
Old February 5th, 2012, 08:57 PM
NikoZnate NikoZnate is offline
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BUMP.

When is this gonna be updated? Are you giving up on getting another Turtledove?
I've been working on the update for the past couple of days! It's mostly more Atenist theology, further fleshed out, with a touch of cosmology... Like all religions, it's a bit complicated, so I'm trying to explain it in words as best as I can compared to how I understand in my own head - it's a challenge! It'll be up some time this evening though, fear not!
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  #142  
Old February 6th, 2012, 02:09 AM
NikoZnate NikoZnate is offline
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Theology etc...

The Realm of Millions of Years
The World of an Atenist Egypt

Chapter 11
Tales of Millions of Years



For nearly a decade following the campaign in Retjenu, Egypt was at peace. The Hittites, with their new Mitanni puppet functioning as a nice buffer for their sphere of influence, were content to abide by the treaty while they dealt with internal matters. The Canaanite city-states and petty kingdoms under Egyptian suzerainty had been subdued in the campaign, and made no further noises of insubordination. Akhenaten took full advantage of the peace and prosperity to flesh out and refine Atenist dogma and theology; authoring a second hymn, the “Hymn to the Realm of the Aten” [1], and also a compendium of short stories he entitled “The Tales of Millions of Years”.

The Tales of Millions of Years were inspired in no small part by traditional Egyptian “wisdom literature” such as “The Maxims of Ptahhotep”, “The Instructions of Kagemni”, “Teaching for King Merykare”, and “Instructions of Amenemhat”. This ancient genre (already over a thousand years old by this point) had long sought to impart guidance upon nobles, functionaries, courtiers, and princes by teaching them to live and act in accordance with Ma’at, the cosmic principle on which much of the Egyptian psyche, and by extension Atenism, was based. In his “Tales”, Akhenaten would take the genre and rework it slightly; the stories were designed to function as a sort of moral code, teaching righteous action and comportment through parable and scenario, as well as contemplating the nature of the universe and the human condition from a distinctly Atenist cosmological perspective

Part prophecy, part aspiration, and part what might be called in OTL “speculative fiction”, the “Tales of Millions of Years” all adhered to more or less the same literary template; the stories were set in the Realm of Millions of Years, the hypothetical Utopia Akhenaten had imagined in his “Hymn to the Realm”, wherein every single person lived in accordance with Ma’at and where there was no pain, no suffering, no darkness, and no death. Akhenaten imagined the Realm of Millions of Years as God’s ultimate goal for creation - the world in a state of perfection: there was eternal sunlight, a bounty of food and drink for all, disputes between individuals and nations alike (violent or otherwise) were unheard of. However, since the Realm of Millions of Years was merely the current world perfected, the legacies of old would remain in the form of literature and the ruins of past, decadent, chaos-driven societies – Each of the tales is framed as a story within a story, either related by a father to a daughter or a mother to a son, the parent responding to the child’s questions about what life was like before the creation of the perfection of the world. For example, a daughter in one tale finds a skull of a man with an axe blade firmly embedded within it, and her father explains to her about how, in the old days, there were people who did not accept the Ba of the Aten into their hearts, who did not live in accordance with Ma’at, and acted violently as a result.

Interestingly enough, Akhenaten also referenced himself in the Tales as having died before the Realm’s inception, as though he knew and accepted that it would not occur in his lifetime. His death is merely physical, however, as in the Realm of Millions of Years both the living and the dead share equally in the paradise the Aten has created; Heaven and Earth have become one, as God had intended. Additionally, in the Tales, he recounted how his Cult of the Aten had grown and governed itself in the unspecified amount of time that passed between his death and the foundation of the Realm of Millions of Years (the point when he returns to rule). Akhenaten, in effect, laid the groundwork for how Atenism was to function as a religion following his earthly demise.


The picture that emerges is this: the Tales state that after his death, Akhenaten’s role as King of Upper and Lower Egypt passes to his son, who becomes the new Egyptian sovereign. But Akhenaten’s spirit has ascended to Heaven to join his father, the Aten, for whom he was a mere regent on earth; therefore, in death, Akhenaten becomes the “Nesutaneb”, the “King of All Lands” who rules nominally over “all those who live by Ma’at” [2] regardless of race or nationality. Even in death, Akhenaten remains the sovereign of all of the Aten’s creation, and the intermediary between men and God. The Tales go on to state that after Akhenaten’s death and ascendance to his new role as Nesutaneb, his earthly duties pass to his Great Royal Wife, Nefertiti, the Divine Adoratrice of the Aten, who is in turn given the title “Henuttaneb” (“Queen of All Lands”) in life, and takes up the responsibility of being the highest-ranking living official within the Atenist religion. The Tales also go so far as to account for what happens after Nefertiti’s eventual death: Nefertiti, like Akhenaten, ascends to become “a Queen-in-Heaven”, while a NEW Divine Adoratrice/“Queen-on-Earth” becomes the “spiritual bride” of Akhenaten to take Nefertiti’s earthly place; and as another note, it is implied in the tales that the Divine Adoratrice of the Aten/the Queen-on-Earth, and the queen of Egypt (the wife of Akhenaten’s heir as King of Upper and Lower Egypt) cannot possibly be the same woman, as a woman cannot have two husbands (this is a product of Egyptian society/culture rather than any stated Atenist dogma). Akhenaten’s plan for his death, as outlined in the Tales of Millions of Years, is to essentially divide the roles of ruler of Egypt and custodian of the Atenist faith into two different lines of succession – His role as king of Egypt is to pass down a line of his male heirs (from father to son), and his role as the Aten’s foremost servant is to pass down a line of his wives, which grows as he continues to take on more wives in death! Ideally, those wives will be royal princesses, meaning that the order of succession for the role of Divine Adoratrice of the Aten will first be from Nefertiti to one of her daughters, and then from aunt to niece thereafter. [3]


Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti - The first Divine Adoratrice of the Aten
Her characteristic headgear would become the identifying article of the office's regalia

In addition to codifying how he intends to be succeeded, the Tales of Millions of Years also explain Atenist cosmology, theology, and mythology, which much like the rest of Atenism are derivative of traditional Egyptian religion as a whole [4]. The picture of the Atenist universe that Akhenaten creates is one of perpetual struggle between Ma’at and Isfet, with Creation as the battleground. In the beginning, there was only God and Isfet, and the chaotic “primeval waters of Nu”, or “the Abyss”. But God (called “Netjer” in the Egyptian language and “Ra” by name [5]), who lives by Ma’at and abhors Isfet, saw this state of affairs and was not content to abide by it. So, Ra/God/Netjer sought to create a place where Ma’at would reign, so that it might eventually expunge Isfet from existence. The world was from the beginning meant to be a paradise, a Utopia, with the Aten (God’s physical form within creation) illuminating everything. However, Isfet was not to go without a fight – it retreated to the Duat, the underworld, from where it sought to corrupt God’s creation through suffering and reclaim it for its own. Some souls, created by God to share in Ma’at and work towards its eventual triumph, were taken by Isfet and descended to the Duat in death, and God could not allow this… So, out of necessity, the Aten would have to pass through the Duat to remind the souls claimed by Isfet that there was always hope, and all they would need to do to return to Heaven is accept the soul of God into their own, therefore living by Ma’at – but passing through the Duat meant leaving Creation in darkness, causing “night” where before there had only been day. To counteract this, God set in the heavens the Iah, the orb of the moon (the Aten’s lunar equivalent, if you will), as a reflection of the Aten’s light as it passed through the underworld. At dawn, the Aten would emerge from the underworld, and all of Creation would be renewed, as if born again, for the cycle to be completed another day. The role of mortals in this cyclical struggle was to live virtuously, to be kind and generous to their fellows and to live in accordance with Ma’at so that God’s plan of turning creation into the Realm of Millions of Years, the union of Heaven and Earth, might come to fruition. The responsibility of the Atenist, therefore, was nothing less than to give all they could to this divine effort, to ensure through proper conduct that God’s order triumphs over Isfet’s chaos.


Or, in shorter point form:

- Creation occurs when God makes a move to impose order upon chaos. God models his creation as Isfet’s exact opposite: Where there is chaotic formlessness, God creates the Earth – God takes the form of the Aten to illuminate the darkness – Where there is death (or more accurately, lack of life), God creates living beings, and gives them souls that they might think for themselves and love and care for one another, as knowledge is the opposite of ignorance and love is the opposite of the purposeless apathy in Isfet’s realm… Etc.
- Isfet is not vanquished immediately, though, taking refuge in the underworld. To challenge life, Isfet manifests as illness and death – to challenge love, it manifests as hate and jealousy – to challenge creation, it manifests as destruction.
- Souls fall prey to Isfet’s distortions of God’s creations, and wander the Duat as Dwellers-in-Darkness.
- God as the Aten must pass through the Duat to redeem these lost souls, creating the day/night cycle.
- With each day, Creation is renewed, and the cycle begins again.
- Mortals must repay God for their lives by striving to aid him through living the good lives he wants for them – it is to their benefit as well as everyone else’s to hasten the arrival of the Realm of Millions of Years.

* * *

While Akhenaten developed Atenism further, the Egyptian state continued to undergo reforms overseen by prince Iahames-Paatennakhtef. Two years after Akhenaten’s return from Retjenu, the Per-Sebayat (lit. “House of Wisdom”) was completed in Akhet-Aten. The Imakhu, the landed nobility, were encouraged to send their sons to study there through incentives such as the opportunity to increase their holdings with land and estates confiscated from the closed temples of Amen-Ra, Horus, and Ptah. In the halls of the Per-Sebayat, the sons of the nobility (typically the younger ones, as the elders were expected to inherit the estates) were instructed in the arts of medicine, writing, and statecraft. In opening the Per-Sebayat, Iahames had provided the Imakhu with a place other than the army to send their younger sons, and while many were wary of the disciplines taught there being associated with a possible decline in status, the association of the nobility with the workings of the formidable Egyptian bureaucracy actually elevated the status of the latter rather than degrading that of the former, though that eventuality would not be fully seen until after Akhenaten’s demise years down the road…


The Per-Sebayat

Meanwhile, the royal children were growing up quickly, and at Iahames’ suggestion they were also studying subjects such as history and diplomacy at the Per-Sebayat. Prince Tutankhaten was restless, as always, but listened with rapt attention to the history teachers as they enumerated the achievements of his ancestors, such as Menkheperre [6] who had fought and won seventeen different military campaigns, and Aakheperure [7] who wielded a bow that he alone was strong enough to pull, had been capable of shooting an arrow clean through a copper target, and who could row a galley by himself without tiring [8]. Tutankhaten sought to emulate these hero-kings, these grandfathers of his grandfather, by diligently sticking to a military training regimen. He frequently conversed with Kikkuli, the guest Mitanni assussanni, who taught him how to rear, care for, and break horses, and who wrote manuals in the Egyptian tongue so that others might also learn his skills. The prince was often seen practicing with a sword, a bow, or a chariot with his friend Paramessu, son of Seti, and the two boys soon grew into strong, athletic young men who incited many blushes and giggles from the palace maidservants and the daughters of the nobility alike, and who came to be rather notorious for their escapades among them (it certainly helped that Tutankhaten had inherited much of Nefertiti’s good looks)… For Tutankhaten’s part, however, those escapades did grind to a halt (at least for a while) when he fell passionately – as was his character – for Tjawenmaya, daughter of treasury official, in the 17th year of his father’s reign. Their marriage soon produced a daughter, whom he named Sitaten, after his murdered cousin.

Tutankhaten’s sisters, in the mean time, were also attending the Per-Sebayat in order to study reading, writing, religion, and estate management. This was the idea of both Akhenaten and Nefertiti, as it was intended that once they were both dead, it would be once of the royal princesses who would become the spiritual bride of Akhenaten, the Divine Adoratrice of the Aten, and the Henuttaneb – the Queen-on-Earth [9]. Only one could be Divine Adoratrice, however, so as for the others not selected for the role, they would become “Chantresses of the Aten” assigned to other Aten temples that Akhenaten was commissioning to replace those of the gods whose cults Iahames had destroyed, wherein they would act as lesser versions of their mother (and later one of their sisters) in her capacity as Divine Adoratrice in the Per-Aten at the heart of holy Akhet-Aten – rather like high-priestesses of the Aten subordinate to the highest of all in the Aten’s most holy sanctuary.

Autdjeretpaaten, the son of Iahames, despite studying with his cousins at the Per-Sebayat, was also being instructed frequently in private lessons with his father. To many onlookers, this seemed almost touching – having lost his only daughter, perhaps Iahames was now using the excuse of lessons to spend more time with his only son. In fact, Iahames was just as severe, if not more so, with Autdjeretpaaten than the instructors in the Per-Sebayat… His lessons were conducted with the precision and formality of military drills; no familial pleasantries were exchanged, and every day the boy was presented with some new hypothetical problem, or crisis, which he would have to resolve or face his father’s wrath. Autdjeretpaaten’s life and education were without a doubt far more stressful than those of his cousins, an odd irony considering Tutankhaten’s position as heir-apparent… However, the slight, quiet, demure Autdjeretpaaten found ways to cope. He reveled in stories, both classical literature and the “Tales of Millions of Years” composed by his uncle, the king (several of the Tales were even inspired by conversations between Akhenaten and his nephew). He also remained close to his mother, Lady Iniuya, who despite (or perhaps because of) being utterly ignored by her husband the Prince Regent, was able to cultivate a large circle of eloquent and well-connected noble acquaintances, to whom she never missed an opportunity to show off her increasingly brilliant son, be it at an informal gathering in a palace garden or a banquet held at Iahames’ palatial Akhet-Aten address while he was away on business.

Such business trips were, in fact, increasingly common for Iahames. He would visit some nobles to invite their sons to the Per-Sebayat personally, and other times he would inspect the confiscated the holdings of the destroyed cults first-hand, in order to ensure that no unscrupulous bureaucrats were skimming from the milk of the state’s newest cash cows… More often than not, the trips up and down the river included layovers at Djaruka (the location of the estate of his mother - the formidable Dowager-Queen Tiye) where his wife Mutbenret remained, still traumatized by the untimely death of their daughter. Sometimes, Nefertiti would meet him at Djaruka – Mutbenret was her sister, after all – and they would visit her together, perhaps reading a story to her or ensuring that the servants were properly attending to her needs. Alas, Mutbenret remained a quiet, shattered shell of the woman she used to be, and as the years went by Iahames’ visits to Djaruka grew farther and farther apart – though he would never cause them to cease entirely.

For nine years following Akhenaten’s return from the Levant, Egypt was at peace. Nine times the river rose and fell, nine times were the harvests plentiful – The king and his brother saw their mother die and Tutankhaten have a child of his own. With the generally peaceful family atmosphere accentuated by the frenetic activity of an administration overseeing considerable change and reform, it seemed as though the second decade of Akhenaten’s reign would end in much the same way as the first had began… But to assume thusly was naïve in the extreme.

************************************************** ***************

Alright, so after re-writing and reading through this multiple times, it makes sense to me, but then I know exactly what I'm talking about with regards to Atenist theology and how it's unfolding in TTL, so if anything's not clear or you have any questions, do speak up! I'll be happy to answer them!

We're nearing the end of Akhenaten's reign... I don't plan to have him live much longer than he did in OTL, which means that Tutankhaten will soon take his place on the Horus Throne (huh... That throne is probably due for a name change, yes?).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] See previous update (Chapter 10).

[2] Read: all Atenists, or all righteous people in general.

[3] If it still isn’t clear how this will work, I’ll make a chart…

[4] It is not unreasonable to say that Atenism was merely the Pharaonic cult of personality, reaching its apogee under Amenhotep III, that Akhenaten took to its most extreme logical conclusion; therefore, it’s also not unreasonable to assume that he would do the same with do the same with other aspects of Egyptian religion.

[5] “Netjer” is not the name of God in Atenism, but simply the word that literally translates as “God”, much like “Allah” in Arabic. In OTL, Egyptian Coptic Christians refer to God in Coptic-language hymns as “Nouti/Noude”, which is merely the Coptic variation on the old Egyptian “Netjer”. Ra in Atenism is considered to be the personal name of “Netjer”, much like “Yahweh/Jehova/El/Adonai” are among the personal names of God in the Judeo-Christian imagination.

[6] Thutmose III

[7] Amenhotep II

[8] This particular claim of Amenhotep II is most likely an exaggeration…

[9] This sort of father-daughter marriage, especially given that it’s of a spiritual/theological and not a sexual nature, would not have caused Egyptian royalty to bat an eye in the slightest.
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  #143  
Old February 6th, 2012, 02:14 AM
Cuāuhtemōc Cuāuhtemōc is offline
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Nice update. It makes up for the god damn Patriots losing again!
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  #144  
Old February 6th, 2012, 07:37 AM
Silver Silver is offline
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I'm happy to see another chapter of this wonderful TL of yours. Please write more soon. I look forward to the reign of Tutankhaten and his many military campaigns. Will Tutankhaten be remembered/regarded in history in your ATL as a military genius in the same breath alongside the OTL ones such as Alexander The Great of Macedon, Sun Tzu, Hannibal of Carthage, Julius Caesar of Rome, Belisarius of Byzantium, Napoleon Bonaparte of France, etc.? Also, will you write future chapters on the lands/kingdoms bordering ancient Egypt such as the Hittite Kingdom, Kush, North Africa, etc. as well as on distant lands/kingdoms such as the Greek city-states, Rome, the Celtic kingdoms (including those in the British Isles, the Celto-Iberian kingdoms in the Iberian peninsula [i.e. Spain, Portugal, Andorra], Gaul, etc.), and even in faraway kingdoms such as the warring states of China, the various kingdoms of the Indian subcontinent, the various kingdoms/peoples in Central Asia, the various kingdoms/peoples of sub-Saharan Africa, the Yamato kingdom of the Japanese Home Islands, the kingdoms of Silla and Paekche of the Korean peninsula, the various kingdoms of southeast Asia such as the Champa, the Mons, etc., especially those in the Malay Archipelago (consisting of OTL Indonesia, OTL Malaysia, OTL Singapore, OTL Brunei, southern Thailand, and southern Philippines), the various peoples/kingdoms in South America and Central America/Mesoamerica - especially on the changes and butterflies that may and will have occurred due to the continued existence of Atenism in ancient Egypt as well as any or all interactions such kingdoms will have with Atenist Egypt? Lastly, will we see an ATL version of Queen Hatshepsut (i.e. OTL ancient Egypt's first and only female Pharaoh) and if so will she only be one of the more famous Divine Adoritrices to the Aten after Queen Nefertiti in your ATL? Please kindly let me know your answers to each of my questions. As always, I hope to hear from you very soon. Thank you.
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  #145  
Old February 6th, 2012, 12:08 PM
NikoZnate NikoZnate is offline
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Originally Posted by Silver View Post
I'm happy to see another chapter of this wonderful TL of yours. Please write more soon.
As always, glad it's being enjoyed!

Quote:
I look forward to the reign of Tutankhaten and his many military campaigns. Will Tutankhaten be remembered/regarded in history in your ATL as a military genius in the same breath alongside the OTL ones such as Alexander The Great of Macedon, Sun Tzu, Hannibal of Carthage, Julius Caesar of Rome, Belisarius of Byzantium, Napoleon Bonaparte of France, etc.?
Well, he's certainly not going to be as passive in military matters as his father was - he's modelling himself on the old "hero kings", after all. I wouldn't personally call him a military genius, but he's certainly stubborn enough to make any success look like a result of genius.

Quote:
Also, will you write future chapters on the lands/kingdoms bordering ancient Egypt such as the Hittite Kingdom, Kush, North Africa, etc. as well as on distant lands/kingdoms such as the Greek city-states, Rome, the Celtic kingdoms (including those in the British Isles, the Celto-Iberian kingdoms in the Iberian peninsula [i.e. Spain, Portugal, Andorra], Gaul, etc.), and even in faraway kingdoms such as the warring states of China, the various kingdoms of the Indian subcontinent, the various kingdoms/peoples in Central Asia, the various kingdoms/peoples of sub-Saharan Africa, the Yamato kingdom of the Japanese Home Islands, the kingdoms of Silla and Paekche of the Korean peninsula, the various kingdoms of southeast Asia such as the Champa, the Mons, etc., especially those in the Malay Archipelago (consisting of OTL Indonesia, OTL Malaysia, OTL Singapore, OTL Brunei, southern Thailand, and southern Philippines), the various peoples/kingdoms in South America and Central America/Mesoamerica - especially on the changes and butterflies that may and will have occurred due to the continued existence of Atenism in ancient Egypt as well as any or all interactions such kingdoms will have with Atenist Egypt?
Oh, there will be chapters involving Kush (which is still firmly under Egyptian rule) and the Hittite Empire very soon... The rest of the world will gradually make its way into the picture, but again I feel compelled to point out that it will be very different from OTL - The Greek city states that arise will not be like those of OTL, Rome will not exist, India will end up looking very different within the next 1,000 years due to butterflies, and those effects will make their way to China.

I'm also putting a butterfly net around the Americas, so history there will unfold as in OTL until contact is made with the Old World. However, it goes without saying that contact will not unfold exactly as it did in our reality...

Quote:
Lastly, will we see an ATL version of Queen Hatshepsut (i.e. OTL ancient Egypt's first and only female Pharaoh) and if so will she only be one of the more famous Divine Adoritrices to the Aten after Queen Nefertiti in your ATL? Please kindly let me know your answers to each of my questions. As always, I hope to hear from you very soon. Thank you.
Two points here:

1) Hatshepsut was not the first female pharaoh, nor as a result was she the only one. The first known female pharaoh is Sobekneferu, who appears to have reigned from 1806 - 1802 BCE during the Middle Kingdom - however, some argue that another female pharaoh, Nitiqrety, may have preceded even her, ruling for an uncertain length of time after 2184 BCE (this is disputed as there isn't consensus among Egyptian scholars as to whether or not Nitiqrety even existed, much less reigned). Another female pharaoh, Tawosret, reigned for a year (1191 BCE) after the death of Siptah, and of course Cleopatra VII, the last pharaoh (unless you count Caesarion), was also a woman. That said, Hatshepsut was certainly the longest-ruling and most powerful of Egypt's female rulers.

2) An alt-Hatshepsut is unnecessary, as Hatshepsut ruled Egypt over 150 years before Akhenaten - her reign has already come and gone in TTL, exactly as it did in OTL.

However, just as Hatshepsut was not Egypt's last female ruler in OTL, she will not be in TTL - Egypt will definitely have other female rulers down the line, though some among them may not necessarily be de jure rulers, nor necessarily pharaohs or "female kings".
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  #146  
Old February 6th, 2012, 12:38 PM
Velasco Velasco is online now
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This is insanely fantastic, very well-written and fleshed out. I look forward to someone from Iaahames having to usurp the throne to maintain order and appease the Aten when some incompetent/child-King inherits in the main line. Would be great to see how Atenism copes/adapts when the current dynasty comes to an end and a new dynasty emerges - I wonder if perhaps the founder of the next dynasty could present himself as incarnation of Akhenaten, and therefore, lawful consort of the Divine Adoratrice?
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  #147  
Old February 6th, 2012, 01:00 PM
Barbarossa Rotbart Barbarossa Rotbart is offline
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2) However, just as Hatshepsut was not Egypt's last female ruler in OTL, she will not be in TTL - Egypt will definitely have other female rulers down the line, though some among them may not necessarily be de jure rulers, nor necessarily pharaohs or "female kings".
Even if only a few female pharaohs are known many more are possible, because many names have been lost and sometimes the name does not give a hint if its bearer is male or female.
BTW even if most Pharaohs were male it was much easier for a woman to pharaoh because women were considered being both male and female but men were only male and thus needed a Great Wife.
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  #148  
Old February 6th, 2012, 02:34 PM
Jonathan Edelstein Jonathan Edelstein is offline
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"Tales of Millions of Years" sounds a bit like a science fiction version of the Westcar papyrus. The future setting is absolutely inspired: by predicting the future, Akhenaten is trying to decree it, and his vision of a messianic age gives everyone - even the lowliest peasant - a stake in the religion and a tangible goal to work toward.

(But if the citizens of the Realm of Millions of Years include the dead, then wouldn't the righteous inhabitants of the old decadent world be able to tell its story themselves? Children wouldn't have to ask their parents to interpret ruins - they'd be able to get the story straight from the horse's mouth, assuming it's polite to liken one's many-times-great grandparents to horses!)

The idea of a male royal succession and a female religious succession is also intriguing. I could see it working for a while, especially since the Adoratrices will be celibate and the religious succession won't be a true dynasty. On the other hand, some future king might try to bend the rules by making an unmarried consort the Adoratrice, or conversely, a strong Adoratrice might dominate a weak king.

Tell me, how big are the Aten's estates? I assume that, like all the Egyptian priesthoods, the cult of the Aten has lands and income, and that these will increase as the Aten becomes more important and the other cults diminish. I see that some of the suppressed cults' confiscated estates were given to the landed nobles (which may have its own risks down the line) and others were taken by the crown - were any given to the Aten? If the Adoratrice controls a substantial part of the kingdom's wealth and land - and if the peasants on that land depend on her for their livelihood - then she could be in a position to dictate to the king, or even to raise her own armies. On the other hand, if the Aten cult is entirely state-supported and has no lands on its own, then it will be weaker, but then all it would take is a single apostate king to destroy the cult by cutting off its subsidy. I can see danger and potential rivalry no matter how the church-state relationship is managed.
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  #149  
Old February 6th, 2012, 05:09 PM
Barbarossa Rotbart Barbarossa Rotbart is offline
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The idea of a male royal succession and a female religious succession is also intriguing. I could see it working for a while, especially since the Adoratrices will be celibate and the religious succession won't be a true dynasty. On the other hand, some future king might try to bend the rules by making an unmarried consort the Adoratrice, or conversely, a strong Adoratrice might dominate a weak king.
And, if my knowledge is ancient Egypt is correct, it also means that a woman can be pharaoh but a man will never be Adoratrix.
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  #150  
Old February 6th, 2012, 05:18 PM
Jonathan Edelstein Jonathan Edelstein is offline
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Originally Posted by Barbarossa Rotbart View Post
And, if my knowledge is ancient Egypt is correct, it also means that a woman can be pharaoh but a man will never be Adoratrix.
Women occasionally did become pharaohs, but they weren't supposed to be, and the women who held royal power often didn't get the royal title (see, e.g., Meryet-Nit of the First Dynasty). In this timeline, there might actually be fewer women who aspire to the kingship, because they'd be able to take a much more female-legitimate title which would give them religious control of Egypt and a good base for secular control. There might even be entire dynasties in which the king is reduced to a figurehead and the Adoratrix, through the Atenist cult and its associated bureaucracy, is the actual ruler. We may also see oversight of the bureaucracy changing hands between the throne and the temple, depending on which is stronger at any given time.
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  #151  
Old February 7th, 2012, 01:48 AM
Dathi THorfinnsson Dathi THorfinnsson is offline
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This is insanely fantastic, very well-written and fleshed out.
I do like the original take here. Anybody can write a TL that involves a different outcome of a military battle. Many can write some political decision that went a different way.

This new religion that seems to actually work*, and the resulting changes in world history etc., is very refreshing and welcome.

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* treatment of religion in SF/Fantasy, for instance, usually makes me grind my teeth, having been invented mostly for plot reasons. The few cases where a believable system exists are a wondrous treat. So far, you're in that latter category.
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  #152  
Old February 7th, 2012, 02:32 AM
twovultures twovultures is offline
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Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson View Post
treatment of religion in SF/Fantasy, for instance, usually makes me grind my teeth, having been invented mostly for plot reasons. The few cases where a believable system exists are a wondrous treat. So far, you're in that latter category.
I agree. Religious POD's are many in history, but are rarely use and rarer still well executed. Hopefully this timeline serves as an inspiration for many more.
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  #153  
Old February 8th, 2012, 02:56 PM
NikoZnate NikoZnate is offline
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... I wonder if perhaps the founder of the next dynasty could present himself as incarnation of Akhenaten, and therefore, lawful consort of the Divine Adoratrice?
An interesting idea, but Atenist theology as it has developed in TTL kind of precludes that possibility. Akhenaten makes it very clear in "Tales of Millions of Years" (which will be quoted at length - and some will be recited in their entirety - in future updates) that he will only return to rule the Realm of Millions of Years, NOT the Egyptian state. Additionally, it's also made clear that the Realm of Millions of Years will only come to be under very specific circumstances: the acceptance of every single soul, living and dead, of Netjer into their hearts.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Edelstein View Post
"Tales of Millions of Years" sounds a bit like a science fiction version of the Westcar papyrus. The future setting is absolutely inspired: by predicting the future, Akhenaten is trying to decree it, and his vision of a messianic age gives everyone - even the lowliest peasant - a stake in the religion and a tangible goal to work toward.
That was where I got the idea, yes

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Tell me, how big are the Aten's estates? I assume that, like all the Egyptian priesthoods, the cult of the Aten has lands and income, and that these will increase as the Aten becomes more important and the other cults diminish. I see that some of the suppressed cults' confiscated estates were given to the landed nobles (which may have its own risks down the line) and others were taken by the crown - were any given to the Aten? If the Adoratrice controls a substantial part of the kingdom's wealth and land - and if the peasants on that land depend on her for their livelihood - then she could be in a position to dictate to the king, or even to raise her own armies. On the other hand, if the Aten cult is entirely state-supported and has no lands on its own, then it will be weaker, but then all it would take is a single apostate king to destroy the cult by cutting off its subsidy. I can see danger and potential rivalry no matter how the church-state relationship is managed.
At this point it's difficult to draw a line between what belongs to the Egyptian crown and what belongs to the Atenist Hierarchy because the two institutions are firmly in the hands of the same tight-knit dynasty. They are essentially managed as though they are part of the same estate; what belongs to the Throne belongs to the Aten, and vice-versa.

Of course, that's merely the current state of affairs. As time goes on, one can definitely expect separate, jostling spheres of secular and ecclesiastical influence to develop, at which point the issue of exactly who owns what will have to come to a reckoning. And yes, empowering the nobility by handing out parcels of some of Egypt's formerly largest cult estates as incentives for integrating more deeply into the reforming system will have all sorts of lovely consequences down the line...


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Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson View Post
I do like the original take here. Anybody can write a TL that involves a different outcome of a military battle. Many can write some political decision that went a different way.

This new religion that seems to actually work*, and the resulting changes in world history etc., is very refreshing and welcome.

--
* treatment of religion in SF/Fantasy, for instance, usually makes me grind my teeth, having been invented mostly for plot reasons. The few cases where a believable system exists are a wondrous treat. So far, you're in that latter category.
Many thanks!

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I agree. Religious POD's are many in history, but are rarely use and rarer still well executed. Hopefully this timeline serves as an inspiration for many more.
Personally my fingers are crossed for someone doing a good Mithraic TL... A Cult of Isis becoming mainstream in the Roman Empire would also be neat.
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  #154  
Old February 8th, 2012, 03:31 PM
Mongo Mongo is offline
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I wonder if there will eventually be an established canon of texts that make up the "official" Atenist scripture, by which I mean a closed collection of texts as with the Christian bible.

On the other hand, the Hindu canon is still open, with new scripture continuing to be added to this day -- although there is no in/out line per se, instead there is a continuum of texts ranging from "this text is definitely central" to "some people consider this text to be spiritually helpful". Actually, the Hindu canon is so huge that it would fill a small library, it is up to the individual believers to pick and choose which texts they will read and follow.

The two hymns to the Aten are almost certain to be included in the eventual Atenist canon, as is "Tales of Millions of Years" (still being written by Akhenaten). Will Akhenaten write other texts besides those mentioned so far? How about his successors, or the Divine Adoratrices?

Last edited by Mongo; February 8th, 2012 at 03:37 PM..
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  #155  
Old February 8th, 2012, 10:31 PM
NikoZnate NikoZnate is offline
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The two hymns to the Aten are almost certain to be included in the eventual Atenist canon, as is "Tales of Millions of Years" (still being written by Akhenaten). Will Akhenaten write other texts besides those mentioned so far? How about his successors, or the Divine Adoratrices?
Basically, anything Akhenaten writes on the subject of the Aten will be accepted as indisputable canon without question - so yes, the hymns and the tales are in the bag. After Akhenaten, that's where it may get a bit fuzzier... His successors, right from Tutankhaten, will not be seen as having the same authority over religious matters as Akhenaten himself; his religious authority is being transferred almost entirely to the Divine Adoratrice.

However, the role of Divine Adoratrice is more of a caretaker rather than that of an innovator; it's her duty to keep "the Cattle of Ra" on the path that leads to the creation of the Realm of Millions of Years through maintenance of the rituals and the protection of orthodoxy. That said, as the spiritual bride of Akhenaten, the Divine Adoratrice is also believed to be the one person on Earth with the absolute closest link to God after Akhenaten himself, so anything a future Adoratrice does write or decree will certainly carry a lot of weight, and few will have the nerve to question her - it's not quite "Papal Infallibility", but it's pretty close...

Also, I'll reveal right now that Atenism will spark quite an intellectual tradition... The intellectual climate of the Atenist Egyptian Empire will produce a large cast of thinkers and theologians, just as was the case with the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. traditions in OTL. While the writings of these future Atenist philosophers will not necessarily be included in the Atenist canon, that doesn't preclude it from carrying considerable weight in the slightest.
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  #156  
Old February 10th, 2012, 01:03 AM
Jonathan Edelstein Jonathan Edelstein is offline
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Originally Posted by NikoZnate View Post
Basically, anything Akhenaten writes on the subject of the Aten will be accepted as indisputable canon without question - so yes, the hymns and the tales are in the bag. After Akhenaten, that's where it may get a bit fuzzier... His successors, right from Tutankhaten, will not be seen as having the same authority over religious matters as Akhenaten himself; his religious authority is being transferred almost entirely to the Divine Adoratrice.
To borrow an Islamic analogy, Akhenaten is the prophet and his immediate successors are the rashidun? Unlike later kings, they actually knew Akhenaten, and their pronouncements on the more political aspects of the faith should carry some weight.

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Originally Posted by NikoZnate View Post
However, the role of Divine Adoratrice is more of a caretaker rather than that of an innovator; it's her duty to keep "the Cattle of Ra" on the path that leads to the creation of the Realm of Millions of Years through maintenance of the rituals and the protection of orthodoxy.
That can be a pretty fine line, though. New situations arise, interpretation of doctrine is needed - is that conservation (by keeping the realm on the true path) or innovation (by inventing new methods of keeping the realm om the true path)? I suspect that the Adoratrices will soon have to confront the issue of how far to push Atenism in conquered lands, given that Tutankhaten is likely to do a lot more conquering than his dad. Of course, the application of Atenism to military conquests may be an area in which the male successors' opinion carries as much weight as the Adoratrices', since they'll be the ones leading the armies and they'll have to decide how to balance doctrine and military necessity. There will probably be many ad hoc precedents that become canon almost by accident.

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Originally Posted by NikoZnate View Post
Also, I'll reveal right now that Atenism will spark quite an intellectual tradition... The intellectual climate of the Atenist Egyptian Empire will produce a large cast of thinkers and theologians, just as was the case with the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. traditions in OTL. While the writings of these future Atenist philosophers will not necessarily be included in the Atenist canon, that doesn't preclude it from carrying considerable weight in the slightest.
Very cool. And this will help ensure that the Amarna period is remembered as a golden age, and that Egyptians will want to re-create it after periods of downfall.
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  #157  
Old February 10th, 2012, 05:17 AM
Daztur Daztur is offline
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Excellent timeline, I'll keep on reading this one. Anyone know any other pre-Modern timelines as closely researched as this one?

Just one question, you mention the Mittani as being dominated by the Hittites. Why aren't the Mittani within the Egyptian sphere after the Levantine campaign or am I missing something?
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  #158  
Old February 10th, 2012, 10:30 AM
NikoZnate NikoZnate is offline
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Just one question, you mention the Mittani as being dominated by the Hittites. Why aren't the Mittani within the Egyptian sphere after the Levantine campaign or am I missing something?
I'm pretty sure I accounted for that in previous updates, but... The Levantine campaign wasn't a total success... The rebels within the Egyptian Empire were defeated, yes, but the Mitanni army, led by Tushratta himself, elected to fight alongside the Egyptians, foolishly leaving their heartland open to attack by the Hittites who were also in the neighbourhood. The Hittites installed their own puppet, Artatama, on the Mitanni throne.

The Egyptian/Mitanni army was about to march into the Mitanni heartland to reclaim the throne for Tushratta when news of the plot against the government reached Byblos. Akhenaten made the decision to go back to Egypt, and invited Tushratta to come back with him. The maryannu, the elite chariot corps of the Mitanni army, attempted a mutiny and were all killed as a result, leaving Tushratta with little choice but to accept Akhenaten's invitation.

From there, realpolitik took over, and the Egyptians and Hittites are, for the moment, content to observe the current status quo. Egypt may have lost an ally in the Mitanni kingdom, but its grip over the Levant is much tighter than it was at the same time in OTL.
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  #159  
Old February 10th, 2012, 10:33 AM
NikoZnate NikoZnate is offline
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To borrow an Islamic analogy, Akhenaten is the prophet and his immediate successors are the rashidun? Unlike later kings, they actually knew Akhenaten, and their pronouncements on the more political aspects of the faith should carry some weight.
Essentially, yes! Notably, his male and female successors (in the secular and religious spheres, respectively) alike play a similar role to the "rightly guided" caliphs.
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Old February 10th, 2012, 10:51 AM
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Since the Phoenicians as we know them are knocked out of existence, I wonder what will become of the writing systems in the Near East. Is there still a Canaanite development of an alphabetic script, or will this new Egyptian cultural universalism and state-building phase crowd out the space necessary for such a thing to develop? If the Levant is more tightly integrated with Egypt proper, might it not simply adopt Egyptian hieroglyphs wholesale? I suppose if attempts to extend Atenism have a significant literary component, it'll be more likely.

It'll also be interesting to see what peoples spread around the Mediterranean basin in a few hundred years along the lines of OTL's Greeks and Phoenicians.
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