AH Challenge: Jewish State in Spain
- Thread starter Nicole
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Fragmented Iberian Peninsula
This would imply a considerably weaker Christian Spain, which would probably mean the Arabs were expelled much more slowly. Perhaps Spain continues to remain weak and divided, thus enabling the Jewish State to survive amid a precarious balance of nations on the Iberian Peninsula.
This would imply a considerably weaker Christian Spain, which would probably mean the Arabs were expelled much more slowly. Perhaps Spain continues to remain weak and divided, thus enabling the Jewish State to survive amid a precarious balance of nations on the Iberian Peninsula.
It might come about the same way that Khazaria did: a balance between Christian and Islamic states makes Judaism the choice for a neutral. Portugal would be a good location, given its mountainous isolation.
In the 9th century, a Jewish Rabbi forms a new branch of Judaism - which is more open towards converting people to Judaism and which changes a few other things, but is still definitely Jewish. At that time, there was a lot of tolerance towards other religions by the Muslim authorities, even pretty equal access to political institutions, but conversion will probably still need to be done in secrecy as much as possible. After a few years, once the following is large enough, there is also an active policy of convincing Jews from areas with lots of intolerance to come to the place.
The Religion grows quickly, because of the greater tolerance and all the opportunities in the "golden age" beginning there at the time.
In the 10th century, a member of this religion becomes General of an army of the Iberian Caliphate. He successfully fights a few wars or revolts and is rewarded with the rule over a small province in the North of Spain, bordering one or two of the Christian kingdoms there.
He invites Jews from all over Spain and other places to live there and sees for the conversion of many of the locals (Christians and Muslims) to Judaism. The local capital becomes a prospering city. To feed all the immigrants, he invests a lot of effort into building irrigations, dams, markets, streets, and so on. A province of a few hundred thousand people quickly reaches the first million.
At the same time, this brand of Judaism spreads to many other places and gradually becomes the dominant form of Judaism in Europe, North Africa, and the Mideast. There is also some exchange with the then-still-existing Khazaria. To avoid unnecessary wars with Muslims and Christians, conversion of people from those religions is kept at a low flame - as much as is tolerated in the different places. Also, he arranges for the movement of Jews from intolerant to more tolerant places (and his province), thereby partly helping defusing tensions between Christians and Jews as well as Muslims and Jews.
Mountains in some parts of the province provide a good protection agaist invaders, while the large number of people allows a big army, which is hardened for battle by doing a lot of the infrastructure work in peace times.
After a few years, a battle with one of the Christian kingdoms erupts, and, with the help of Muslim Spain, the Jewish province wins and the Kingdom falls. To avoid clashes with Christians, the ruler of the Jewish state, which now is a kingdom, sees for the state to be split into pretty independent Christian and Jewish provinces, expanding the Jewish area only slightly. There are also one or two provinces which are supposed to be liberal heavens for Jews, Christians and Muslims to live together. And the Jewish king lets the Muslims have most of the conquered territory in exchange for complete liberalism in provinces surrounding the Jewish kingdom, so that the expansion of the Jewish territory doesn't get that much attention.
At the same time, measures are taken to neutralize Christian and Muslim (religious) leaders who create tension between Jews and their religions with hate speaches, suprressive acts, and the likes - war mongerers are involved in scandals, their (mainly non-Jewish) opponents miraculously get to know a lot of their plans, authors and other opinion makers of the different religions who advocate peace and a liberal attitude among the different religions get some support, and so on.
In the next war, the remaining Christian Kingdoms of Spain fall. Directly after the war, a quarrel erupts over how to share the conquered territories. The quarrel turns into a war, which the freshly mobilized Christian forces from France join. In the later peace, one of the Christian kingdoms gets her independence back, the Jewish Kingdom expands a lot, the French (actually Franks) get some territory, Muslim Spain is reduced to the remains.
Pretty soon, the next wars follow similar to OTL, but as Judeo-Christian alliances. In those wars, the Franks capture what was Aragon at her greatest extent, the Christian kingdom in the north stays the same, and the remains of the Iberian peninsula go to the Jewish kingdom.
Because of the tolerance of the Jews against the Spanish Muslims, relations to the Muslim world recover quickly. So when later a war against the Christians break out, they send a lot of help, also because of their interests in the Middle East. Therefore, the Jewish Kingdom takes the remaining Spanish Christian kingdom, Aragon and even some territory beyond the Pyrenean Mountains. In the later peace, the Pyreneans are declared the border between the Franks and the "Juberians".
The plague weakens all sides considerably.
Juberia manages to get into the same great power status as Spain IOTL, but with added Portuguese ressources. Because of the religious isolation and growing power of Europe, there is not much interest in engaging in European affairs, therefore no Spanish Armada or the likes. Juberia becomes a sea faring nation with lots of trade all over the Mediterranean, northern Europe and western Africa. Colonies spring up in western and later southern Africa similar to OTL. Jewish explorers discover America. Because of the scarcity of labor after the plague, African and Amerindian slaves are imported. After a few years, demand for people in America grows, so that African slaves go mainly there. After the population has reached pre-plague levels again, a lot of Juberians go to America, too, to escape poverty at home. Criminals are also brought there, to increase colony sizes for more tax revenue.
Later, people from all over Europe, Africa and Asia are invited to come to America. A melting pot policy makes sure America stays under Juberian control. Other European powers settle mainly in North America, similar to OTL.
Juberian naval explorers cartograph the whole world and discover Australia, decades before the British (OTL, a Portuguese ship wrecked there in the 16th century - so it's not unlikely). Australia is settled by Juberians.
The decline of the Muslim world makes eastern Africa, the Mideast, the Balcans, south-west Asia, and north Asia parts of the Christian sphere of influence, while north-west Africa is controlled by Juberia.
As Juberia is quite a lot stronger than Spain and Portugal together, some of their historical defeats are avoided - no British Gibraltar, many more parts of Africa become and stay Juberian, Juberia develops in a similar fashion to Britain.
In the 18th and 19th century, the different independence movements take their toll - Juberian possessions in Amerika form independent states, only the African colonies and Australia stay in Juberian hands for now. Britain faces similar problems. But friendly relations with all the Jewish states and colonies all over the world make sure Juberia is pretty save from any attack.
During the 20th century, African and Australian nations get independent, too, maybe caused by a communist SU and republican US and South Americas, similar to OTL. If Nazi-Germany is also not butterflied away, most Jews find a new home in one of the many Jewish countries all over the world, the anti-Jewish propaganda leads to diplomatic clashes with the Jewish countries and their allies, and war is declared as soon as the extinction efforts against the remaining Jews become known (probably during operation Barbarossa or sth. similar, 1941). Therefore, wwii ends much sooner than OTL.
Today, there are about as many Jews on the planet as Christians or Muslims - in this TL.
The Religion grows quickly, because of the greater tolerance and all the opportunities in the "golden age" beginning there at the time.
In the 10th century, a member of this religion becomes General of an army of the Iberian Caliphate. He successfully fights a few wars or revolts and is rewarded with the rule over a small province in the North of Spain, bordering one or two of the Christian kingdoms there.
He invites Jews from all over Spain and other places to live there and sees for the conversion of many of the locals (Christians and Muslims) to Judaism. The local capital becomes a prospering city. To feed all the immigrants, he invests a lot of effort into building irrigations, dams, markets, streets, and so on. A province of a few hundred thousand people quickly reaches the first million.
At the same time, this brand of Judaism spreads to many other places and gradually becomes the dominant form of Judaism in Europe, North Africa, and the Mideast. There is also some exchange with the then-still-existing Khazaria. To avoid unnecessary wars with Muslims and Christians, conversion of people from those religions is kept at a low flame - as much as is tolerated in the different places. Also, he arranges for the movement of Jews from intolerant to more tolerant places (and his province), thereby partly helping defusing tensions between Christians and Jews as well as Muslims and Jews.
Mountains in some parts of the province provide a good protection agaist invaders, while the large number of people allows a big army, which is hardened for battle by doing a lot of the infrastructure work in peace times.
After a few years, a battle with one of the Christian kingdoms erupts, and, with the help of Muslim Spain, the Jewish province wins and the Kingdom falls. To avoid clashes with Christians, the ruler of the Jewish state, which now is a kingdom, sees for the state to be split into pretty independent Christian and Jewish provinces, expanding the Jewish area only slightly. There are also one or two provinces which are supposed to be liberal heavens for Jews, Christians and Muslims to live together. And the Jewish king lets the Muslims have most of the conquered territory in exchange for complete liberalism in provinces surrounding the Jewish kingdom, so that the expansion of the Jewish territory doesn't get that much attention.
At the same time, measures are taken to neutralize Christian and Muslim (religious) leaders who create tension between Jews and their religions with hate speaches, suprressive acts, and the likes - war mongerers are involved in scandals, their (mainly non-Jewish) opponents miraculously get to know a lot of their plans, authors and other opinion makers of the different religions who advocate peace and a liberal attitude among the different religions get some support, and so on.
In the next war, the remaining Christian Kingdoms of Spain fall. Directly after the war, a quarrel erupts over how to share the conquered territories. The quarrel turns into a war, which the freshly mobilized Christian forces from France join. In the later peace, one of the Christian kingdoms gets her independence back, the Jewish Kingdom expands a lot, the French (actually Franks) get some territory, Muslim Spain is reduced to the remains.
Pretty soon, the next wars follow similar to OTL, but as Judeo-Christian alliances. In those wars, the Franks capture what was Aragon at her greatest extent, the Christian kingdom in the north stays the same, and the remains of the Iberian peninsula go to the Jewish kingdom.
Because of the tolerance of the Jews against the Spanish Muslims, relations to the Muslim world recover quickly. So when later a war against the Christians break out, they send a lot of help, also because of their interests in the Middle East. Therefore, the Jewish Kingdom takes the remaining Spanish Christian kingdom, Aragon and even some territory beyond the Pyrenean Mountains. In the later peace, the Pyreneans are declared the border between the Franks and the "Juberians".
The plague weakens all sides considerably.
Juberia manages to get into the same great power status as Spain IOTL, but with added Portuguese ressources. Because of the religious isolation and growing power of Europe, there is not much interest in engaging in European affairs, therefore no Spanish Armada or the likes. Juberia becomes a sea faring nation with lots of trade all over the Mediterranean, northern Europe and western Africa. Colonies spring up in western and later southern Africa similar to OTL. Jewish explorers discover America. Because of the scarcity of labor after the plague, African and Amerindian slaves are imported. After a few years, demand for people in America grows, so that African slaves go mainly there. After the population has reached pre-plague levels again, a lot of Juberians go to America, too, to escape poverty at home. Criminals are also brought there, to increase colony sizes for more tax revenue.
Later, people from all over Europe, Africa and Asia are invited to come to America. A melting pot policy makes sure America stays under Juberian control. Other European powers settle mainly in North America, similar to OTL.
Juberian naval explorers cartograph the whole world and discover Australia, decades before the British (OTL, a Portuguese ship wrecked there in the 16th century - so it's not unlikely). Australia is settled by Juberians.
The decline of the Muslim world makes eastern Africa, the Mideast, the Balcans, south-west Asia, and north Asia parts of the Christian sphere of influence, while north-west Africa is controlled by Juberia.
As Juberia is quite a lot stronger than Spain and Portugal together, some of their historical defeats are avoided - no British Gibraltar, many more parts of Africa become and stay Juberian, Juberia develops in a similar fashion to Britain.
In the 18th and 19th century, the different independence movements take their toll - Juberian possessions in Amerika form independent states, only the African colonies and Australia stay in Juberian hands for now. Britain faces similar problems. But friendly relations with all the Jewish states and colonies all over the world make sure Juberia is pretty save from any attack.
During the 20th century, African and Australian nations get independent, too, maybe caused by a communist SU and republican US and South Americas, similar to OTL. If Nazi-Germany is also not butterflied away, most Jews find a new home in one of the many Jewish countries all over the world, the anti-Jewish propaganda leads to diplomatic clashes with the Jewish countries and their allies, and war is declared as soon as the extinction efforts against the remaining Jews become known (probably during operation Barbarossa or sth. similar, 1941). Therefore, wwii ends much sooner than OTL.
Today, there are about as many Jews on the planet as Christians or Muslims - in this TL.
Leo Caesius
Banned
The traditional term for Spain in Hebrew and other Jewish languages is Sfarad, hence the Sephardim.
That didn't stop the Spaniards, who haven't owned the whole peninsula in quite a long time.
I had the idea for a challenge once: "You can't escape the Jewish Inquisition! Bonus points if it's in Spain."
TTL might actually have one, if this alt-Judaism goes through an intolerant phase or develops an Islam-like aversion to apostasy (there're parts of the Law of Moses mandating stoning for people suggesting "let's worship strange gods," so it might work).
TTL might actually have one, if this alt-Judaism goes through an intolerant phase or develops an Islam-like aversion to apostasy (there're parts of the Law of Moses mandating stoning for people suggesting "let's worship strange gods," so it might work).
In fact spanish inquisition had an strong jewish component, there was some sort of "jewish inquisition" in the christian kingdoms.
Most of the colaborators of the Inquisition were descendants of jews trying to hide their origins. The idea of blood purity is not christian in their origin.
Most of the colaborators of the Inquisition were descendants of jews trying to hide their origins. The idea of blood purity is not christian in their origin.
Condottiero said:
Do you have any proofs for this nonsense? I don't doubt that racial, ideological, barbarian and other such ideas existed among Jews too - I just doubt any involvement of Jews in the inquisition worth mentioning, or your claim about those who supposedly hid their origins or the one about "blood purity" - sounds like stupid Nazi propaganda to me.
Slight correction: Afaik, the Jews did try to limit their religion to their offspring (though probably more so after being pressured this way by other religions), and there were efforts among some influential Jews to make sure their offspring marries people of comparable standing (not unlike things we heard about most other religions or cultures). But that doesn't go nearly as far as what you described.
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I'll look for it, but I think I read it in a book by Joseph Perez. It seems that jewish communities in XIV-XV century Spain were very closed. Jews were not subject to noblemen or the town-counciles but were subject (even property of the crown). Civilian authorities and eclesiastic could not do anything to them without the crown's authorisation (except the usual mob that raided the jewish neighbourhoods). These neighbourhoods were very afraid that, because of external pressures (christian or even muslim) some jews could be tempted to apostate and covert to catholicism or islam, so they created some sort of organization that pursued them. This had the crown's support as if they left the jewish community they escaped also the royal "property".jolo said:
By the end of the XV century this organization disappeared. Some jews that converted to catholicism tried to hide their origins (to evade prosecution) by joining th Inquisition and it seems that some of their methods and ideas were transferred to the spanish institution. The jewish element was so integrated in the iberic society that they took some jewish ideas trying to prosecute the jews. As I said in the previous message the idea of blood purity is more judaic than christian: you become a christian if you convert, but to be a jew you have to be born in the community.
Condottiero said:
Sounds much more balanced. If any of it were true (I don't know) it would probably be some isolated instances I suppose, with no big effect on the outcome.
Also, as I don't consider a Jew who converted to Catholicism a Jew (as was probably the thinking of that time, too), I'd be careful about seeing those people as Jews who participated in the inquisition. Most converts were probably convinced catholics and the people who managed to convert them had probably much more to do with any later fanaticism than any efforts to hide the past.
In the Spain of those centuries many people had jewish ancestors (for instance the very Fernando of Aragon was grandson of a jewish woman), and in fact the spaniards were seen in the rest of Europe as false christians. During the sack of Rome, the romans were more angry for the participation of the spaniards to whom they considered as jewish than by the participation of german lutherans in the imperial army ("hispani judei, perfidi marrani" or something like that).
Culture, Religion and even some daily uses showed clear jewish origins (the poetry of St. John of the Cross is clearly semitic, Olivares tried to change the saint patron of Spain from St. James to St. Teresa de Ávila).
Culture, Religion and even some daily uses showed clear jewish origins (the poetry of St. John of the Cross is clearly semitic, Olivares tried to change the saint patron of Spain from St. James to St. Teresa de Ávila).
Condottiero said:
Many prejudices that were used in propaganda against Jews were also used against other unpopular people and their countries - like Spain when it was successful. In Nazi-Germany, one could be considered a "Jew in mind" for accepting more advanced scientific ideas.
In the case of Spain, I suppose for every bit of Jewish influence one could find at least as much Muslim or Pagan influence.