The Whale has Wings

[Torqumada]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

If you suggest to a Thai that they were Japanese Allies, run. If you suggest to a Korean that THEY were Japanese Allies, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!

The Koreans weren't allies, but they were conscripted into the Japanese military ,so not all the people in the Japanese army were Japanese.

Torqumada

[Garrison]

And that's 300 pages!

[Peg Leg Pom]

Good God it not long ago we were all shocked at reaching 200 pages.

The Korean guards were supposedly even more brutal than the Japanese which just goes to show S**T roles down hill. The same was said about Ukrainian guards as well.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

Good God it not long ago we were all shocked at reaching 200 pages.

The Korean guards were supposedly even more brutal than the Japanese which just goes to show S**T roles down hill. The same was said about Ukrainian guards as well.

I had a Polish co-worker who hated the Germans but whose opinions of Ukrainians cannot be posted here.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Torqumada

The Koreans weren't allies, but they were conscripted into the Japanese military ,so not all the people in the Japanese army were Japanese.

Torqumada

Perhaps, but we are talking about telling MODERN Koreans this. Politics = Perception. So keep your running shoes on all the same.

[Peg Leg Pom]

To hell with running shoes I'd want to be safely inside a Chieftain Tank.

[jlckansas]

One question is what is Yammamoto going to do if the US starts raiding the Marshals, Gilberts and such while the IJA is wanting help in the DEI and Malaya. The Kido Butai can only be in one place at a time and if they think the US is going to hit back quickly, IIRC from the raids in early 42 OTL the IJN staff thought they might, they might want to counter them since the US fleet was considered the bigger threat. Going on what Astrodragon has written the IJN might still think that, given the losses that they think the British fleet has taken.

[PMN1]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

To hell with running shoes I'd want to be safely inside a Chieftain Tank.

Or able to run a bit faster than the other person.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by jlckansas

One question is what is Yammamoto going to do if the US starts raiding the Marshals, Gilberts and such while the IJA is wanting help in the DEI and Malaya. The Kido Butai can only be in one place at a time and if they think the US is going to hit back quickly, IIRC from the raids in early 42 OTL the IJN staff thought they might, they might want to counter them since the US fleet was considered the bigger threat. Going on what Astrodragon has written the IJN might still think that, given the losses that they think the British fleet has taken.

The way Somerville is shuffling his carriers its going to be hard for the IJN to get an accurate count, and either way they are going to get overstretched with all the demands for support heading their way.

[Bookeater]

Sommerville and Nimitz could simply exhaust the KB by making alternating raids and forcing them to race to either to deal with them. They could grind down the KB and then force them to battle to utterly destroy them.

On the other hand, Yamamoto could decide to risk the KB in knocking out one while trying to rely on the army controlled planes to at least keep other fleet at arms length while he rustles up some more carriers and naval pilots.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Whatever happens it will be a stronger RN with a solid claim on a bigger piece of the post-war defence budget than OTL, of course at the current rate of progress 'post war' could be another 600-800 pages away.

The problem is that if they receive a larger piece of the defence budget post-war without a change in policy all it would really do aside from let them keep a few extra ships is increase the number of ones they put into the active reserve where they were mothballed but expensively maintained, eating up large amounts of resources and manpower. They were still rather reasonably for the time thinking of futures wars along WW1 and WW2 lines that would be long hard fights where you would have to call up the reserves/conscripts to help man these ships to increase the size of the fleet for the duration. Even on only the budgets they received in our timeline, which were hardly stingy, if they had scrapped most of the active reserve and channeled the resources into funding the active fleet with new ships and upgrades they would of still been able to build a very respectable navy.

Originally Posted by Garrison

The way Somerville is shuffling his carriers its going to be hard for the IJN to get an accurate count, and either way they are going to get overstretched with all the demands for support heading their way.

Why am I getting mental images of Somerville standing behind a collapsable table as the dealer running a game of three card monte with Yamamoto as the mark and Halsey or Nimitz acting as the shill?

[MattII]

Yamamoto may be the mark, but he can still do a bit of damage, although more the less heavily armoured and prepared US carriers than the British ones. This is still no time for Somerville to relax though.

[Alratan]

To be honest, I think the greatest threat to the RN will be the desire to spread the force out and risk defeat it detai, when it needs to stay concentrated as a single unit to stand up to the KB.

Now that the convoy has arrived, can the Eastern Fleet leave Singapore to be defended by the RAF?

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by Bookeater

Sommerville and Nimitz could simply exhaust the KB by making alternating raids and forcing them to race to either to deal with them. They could grind down the KB and then force them to battle to utterly destroy them.

On the other hand, Yamamoto could decide to risk the KB in knocking out one while trying to rely on the army controlled planes to at least keep other fleet at arms length while he rustles up some more carriers and naval pilots.

Somerville and Alexander stage landings in Thailand, Nimitz builds up to take Bougainville.

Nimitz takes Bougainville, Somerville builds up forces to retake all or at least key locations in Borneo.

Somerville helps take back areas of Borneo, Nimitz builds up to take the Marshalls.

Nimitz takes the Marshalls, Somerville builds up to support a major landing in French Indochina.

Somerville lands in French Indochina, Nimitz builds up to take Guam and the Marianas.

Nimitz takes the Marianas, Somerville builds up to take Hong Kong.

Somerville takes Hong Kong, Nimitz builds up to take Formosa.

Nimitz takes the Formosa, Somerville planes to take Shanghai.

Somerville takes Shanghai, Nimitz builds up to take Okinawa and Iwo Jima.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Whatever happens it will be a stronger RN with a solid claim on a bigger piece of the post-war defence budget than OTL, of course at the current rate of progress 'post war' could be another 600-800 pages away.

By which point wed be on about thread three , asuming the mods close old threads at about 500 pages....

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Alratan

To be honest, I think the greatest threat to the RN will be the desire to spread the force out and risk defeat it detai, when it needs to stay concentrated as a single unit to stand up to the KB.

Now that the convoy has arrived, can the Eastern Fleet leave Singapore to be defended by the RAF?

Well from the previous update the plan appears to be to keep a strong naval force covering Malaya, to counter any attempts at further landings while sending out a raiding force with commando support to disrupt the operations in Borneo and the DEI. There's a risk there yes but its not as big as it would have been a few weeks ago since they have received significant reinforcements and the USN is about to launch its own hit and run raids.
Yamamoto is as ignorant of the intentions of the allies as they are of his, at least for the moment. The time may have passed when he could concentrate his forces against the RN or USN, he has too many operations that could be at risk from counterattack to abandon one area of operation to concentrate on the other.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Simon

The problem is that if they receive a larger piece of the defence budget post-war without a change in policy all it would really do aside from let them keep a few extra ships is increase the number of ones they put into the active reserve where they were mothballed but expensively maintained, eating up large amounts of resources and manpower. They were still rather reasonably for the time thinking of futures wars along WW1 and WW2 lines that would be long hard fights where you would have to call up the reserves/conscripts to help man these ships to increase the size of the fleet for the duration. Even on only the budgets they received in our timeline, which were hardly stingy, if they had scrapped most of the active reserve and channeled the resources into funding the active fleet with new ships and upgrades they would of still been able to build a very respectable navy.

But policy may be different if the empire doesn't crumble as dramatically and Britain isn't as exhausted and bankrupt as OTL.

Why am I getting mental images of Somerville standing behind a collapsable table as the dealer running a game of three card monte with Yamamoto as the mark and Halsey or Nimitz acting as the shill?

Well the more doubt and uncertainty he can plant in Yamamoto's mind the better, and in the not to distant future both the USN and RN will have the KB outgunned. The KB can do a lot of damage, I just don't see it doing so without taking a lot of damage in return.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

Somerville and Alexander stage landings in Thailand, Nimitz builds up to take Bougainville.

Nimitz takes Bougainville, Somerville builds up forces to retake all or at least key locations in Borneo.

Somerville helps take back areas of Borneo, Nimitz builds up to take the Marshalls.

Nimitz takes the Marshalls, Somerville builds up to support a major landing in French Indochina.

Somerville lands in French Indochina, Nimitz builds up to take Guam and the Marianas.

Nimitz takes the Marianas, Somerville builds up to take Hong Kong.(0)

Somerville takes Hong Kong, Nimitz builds up to take Formosa.(1)

Nimitz takes the Formosa,(2) Somerville planes to take Shanghai.(3)

Somerville takes Shanghai,(4a) Nimitz builds up to take Okinawa and Iwo Jima.(4b)

0) I shudder to think of what the IJA would do to Hong Kong should they lose it in an invasion. WInston may want to think about pulling a "Wake Island" regarding HK. Don't invade, and prevent the Rape of Hong Kong.

1) No. For once, MacArthur was in the right about something. Namely, this. A landing in the Philippines in October of 1944 (Election Time!) with a mixed bag of terrain with a well-prepared guerrilla force plus very friendly civilian populations in place? Or a landing in Formosa in January 1946 (5) against a very rugged terrain on Formosa, a hostile civilian population, and far heavier defenses that the Japanese have had 51 years to put in place!).

2) Philippines

3) Not unless Churchill has been told Shanghai is being annexed into the British Empire! His attitude towards China was even more Victorian than his attitude towards Australia and New Zealand!

4a-4b) Dependent on the circumstances, I would expect the RN to be engaged in either or both of the following by this time: Mopping up in Japanese held islands in the DEI, and/or by this time having assembled a full-fledged British Pacific Fleet to operate along side the US Navy.(6)

5) Nimitz's own timetable. Even with all of TTL's adjustments that make Formosa easier, so too for the Philippines.

6) By this time, the US is no longer simply engaged in re-claiming their own territories, but attacking Japanese islands. I imagine that perhaps the British and Commonwealth countries (6) may wish to join in such operations, as OTL, especially as the kamikaze threat will have arisen by this time. The RN carriers will be far better able to withstand these attacks, again, as OTL.

6) OTL, the Empire had a Commonwealth Corps ready to go in for Operation: Coronet as a strategic reserve and a diversionary force to threaten the major island of Shikoku.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Well the more doubt and uncertainty he can plant in Yamamoto's mind the better, and in the not to distant future both the USN and RN will have the KB outgunned. The KB can do a lot of damage, I just don't see it doing so without taking a lot of damage in return.

Yeah, the USN right now just doesn't have the moxie to do anything but raid. Until the Fleet Train is built up, as OTL, and the Marines and army divisions are properly trained and organized, US offensives are just so much blue sky over the horizon. So much still has to be done by the Empire alone. What happened in New Guinea (and in the early rounds in Guadacanal) to the Americans is pretty proof positive of what happens when you go into battle unprepared.

[jlckansas]

You are basically looking at a 3 Theater war in the Pacific from now on.

1. Malaya and Southeast Asia. Southeast Asia Theater, commanded by a British Officer

2. Dutch East Indies, New Guinea, Australia, and into the Solomons and a bit east of there. South Pacific Theater, Commanded by a Australian and American for the invasion of the Philipinnes

3. Central/Northern Pacific. Central Pacific Theater, Nimitz, who else.

All three of these funnel down to the home islands themselves as they get closer. Southeast Asia and the South Pacific meet in the Philipinne Islands and then meet the Central Pacific theater at Okinawa. Basically it depends on the timetables and who still has what to do where as each moves on further in their area as to who commands what where.

Also if the USMC gets amphib experience in the Central pacific drive might there be a Royal Marine division tacked onto a Amphib Corps for experience then get shipped to the south or southeast asia theater?