The Whale has Wings

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Ash's Boomstick

Another of my possibly daft questions due to my lack of knowledge about the Pacific campaigns but...

What was the problem with the US Navy torpedoes exactly and why was it from what I can tell from on here that the logistics types didn't sort them out faster?

I imagine doctoral dissertations have been done on that subject, but I'll try to LIST some of the more salient points:

1) Never make the guy (Christie) who designed and approved a torpedo the same man who employs them in combat (kid with his hand in the cookie jar problem).
2) Never allow ONE state caucus (Rhode Island) to have 100% control over the development and procurement over all of your nation's torpedoes (NTS Torpedo, Rhode Island)
3) The problems were so severe/numerous, they could only be diagnosed and solved sequentially, meaning you could only find and solve problem A, THEN find and solve problem B, and so on, and so on, and so on...

The one shining light in this problem was that Christie could only coverup the problem in COMSUBSWPAC (Freemantle), not COMSUBPAC (Pearl Harbor), which was commanded by the far abler and more honest Charles Lockwood, who did NOT have his career on the line regarding the ability of the Mark XIV.

LOCKWOOD was able to convince Nimitz AND King of the problem. But so entrenched were the politicians in Congress and their little empire at NTS (plus the labor unions there, proving that the US was not immune to labor problems in WWII), that even regular direct orders from King himself were being blocked or side-tracked by every bureaucratic trick that could be mustered.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

I imagine doctoral dissertations have been done on that subject, but I'll try to LIST some of the more salient points:

1) Never make the guy (Christie) who designed and approved a torpedo the same man who employs them in combat (kid with his hand in the cookie jar problem).
2) Never allow ONE state caucus (Rhode Island) to have 100% control over the development and procurement over all of your nation's torpedoes (NTS Torpedo, Rhode Island)
3) The problems were so severe/numerous, they could only be diagnosed and solved sequentially, meaning you could only find and solve problem A, THEN find and solve problem B, and so on, and so on, and so on...

The one shining light in this problem was that Christie could only coverup the problem in COMSUBSWPAC (Freemantle), not COMSUBPAC (Pearl Harbor), which was commanded by the far abler and more honest Charles Lockwood, who did NOT have his career on the line regarding the ability of the Mark XIV.

LOCKWOOD was able to convince Nimitz AND King of the problem. But so entrenched were the politicians in Congress and their little empire at NTS (plus the labor unions there, proving that the US was not immune to labor problems in WWII), that even regular direct orders from King himself were being blocked or side-tracked by every bureaucratic trick that could be mustered.

The only real hope for things going better ITTL I can see is if someone asks hard questions about why British torpedoes sink stuff and US ones don't.

[RazeByFire]

Were there any effective on site fixes from bright Navy guys who felt that they torpedoes they risked their lives to fire should blow something up?

[Astrodragon]

The Pillar convoy is in fact going into Singapore, there are good reasons for this (the troops up north are actually OK for supplies, for example)

As to the Japanese carriers attacking it - well, pretty suicidal.
First they only have two approaches - through the South China Sea, or south and then close to the southern coast of Sumatra. Neither are attractive.

Then they have to be missed by the recon planes over the approaches, be missed by the subs (easier if they take the southern route), be missed by the ASV-equipped planes operating out of Singapore (rather more difficult), get through the RAF at Singapore (they do know by now the islands defences have radar, its become obvious), then hope the torpedo planes and bombers somehow cant find them for a counterstrike (and hope there arent any RN carriers at sea in the area), THEN get out along a very long route through areas that are (at least at first) enemy controlled.

Its just not worth it for a supply convoy.

[MattII]

Originally Posted by RazeByFire

Were there any effective on site fixes from bright Navy guys who felt that they torpedoes they risked their lives to fire should blow something up?

Don't think so, to fix the problem you still have to know what the problem is, not just what its symptom is, and you can only really do that when you're actually testing for it. Of course, I think 3 of the 4 problems were eventually solved pretty easily, a new firing pin, a reset running depth, and disabling the magnetic exploder.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by MattII

Don't think so, to fix the problem you still have to know what the problem is, not just what its symptom is, and you can only really do that when you're actually testing for it. Of course, I think 3 of the 4 problems were eventually solved pretty easily, a new firing pin, a reset running depth, and disabling the magnetic exploder.

Mind, circling torpedoes wasnt only a US problem, there was a certain RN cruiser who torpedoed herself on a Russian convoy..

[El Pip]

Originally Posted by MattII

So what, logging brought in enough money that they could afford to buy track from overseas just to maintain the railway? Bull crap, if they couldn't produce rail themselves they couldn't keep anything but the coastal routes in commission for any length of time.

Not really no.

Steel rails on medium/low speed light use lines wouldn't need maintenance or replacement, rails wear out due to high speed, heavy trains regularly passing over them. I'd be surprised if any of those conditions applied to the early Thai railways, it's not like they were major commuter lines or serving major heavy industries. Of course that does assume they use steel rails, but that is pretty damned likely as the earliest bits were apparently built in the 1890s by British contractors.

One last other thing, a quick google throws up the Siam Cement company who claim to have started building the first steel works in the country in 1942 and only opened a full iron and steel works post war in 1948. If that's true then any replacement rails are either being scavenged from elsewhere or imported from Japan, neither option looks good frankly.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

The Pillar convoy is in fact going into Singapore, there are good reasons for this (the troops up north are actually OK for supplies, for example)

As to the Japanese carriers attacking it - well, pretty suicidal.
First they only have two approaches - through the South China Sea, or south and then close to the southern coast of Sumatra. Neither are attractive.

Then they have to be missed by the recon planes over the approaches, be missed by the subs (easier if they take the southern route), be missed by the ASV-equipped planes operating out of Singapore (rather more difficult), get through the RAF at Singapore (they do know by now the islands defences have radar, its become obvious), then hope the torpedo planes and bombers somehow cant find them for a counterstrike (and hope there arent any RN carriers at sea in the area), THEN get out along a very long route through areas that are (at least at first) enemy controlled.

Its just not worth it for a supply convoy.

So the forthcoming naval battle will be elsewhere, hmmm...

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by El Pip

Not really no.

Steel rails on medium/low speed light use lines wouldn't need maintenance or replacement, rails wear out due to high speed, heavy trains regularly passing over them. I'd be surprised if any of those conditions applied to the early Thai railways, it's not like they were major commuter lines or serving major heavy industries. Of course that does assume they use steel rails, but that is pretty damned likely as the earliest bits were apparently built in the 1890s by British contractors.

One last other thing, a quick google throws up the Siam Cement company who claim to have started building the first steel works in the country in 1942 and only opened a full iron and steel works post war in 1948. If that's true then any replacement rails are either being scavenged from elsewhere or imported from Japan, neither option looks good frankly.

By the time that railway is fixed it sounds like the only ones using it will be the British.

[Tyg]

All this talk about rail makes me realize another thing: There's no way Thailand has enough local rolling stock to adequately meet Japanese logistic needs even when and where the tracks are still intact.

Sure, the Japanese will start guarding the line from Bangkok from now on, but the line would be just as useless if the British are able to disable or destroy the locomotives and railcars. In fact, it should be obvious to any officer in Malaya that in order to repair the line, locomotives will be stuck at very predictable points--Either between damaged areas or slowly inching forward in support of repair and recovery.

Maybe the British still don't have the aircraft required to bomb or strafe such oft-ignored targets, but there still seems to be an opportunity here.

[Alratan]

Originally Posted by MattII

So what, logging brought in enough money that they could afford to buy track from overseas just to maintain the railway? Bull crap, if they couldn't produce rail themselves they couldn't keep anything but the coastal routes in commission for any length of time.

Yes. Basically the entire Thai export economy was built around the extraction of high value tropical hardwoods. It was an enormously lucrative industry, and the logging concessions were enormously valuable. That was the entire reason the railways existed in the first place

Originally Posted by MattII

That was true enough in the 1830s, but what about the 1860s

First rolling mill built in the UK in 1820.

[PMN1]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Mind, circling torpedoes wasnt only a US problem, there was a certain RN cruiser who torpedoed herself on a Russian convoy..

In defence of RN torpedoes, that was down to ice......

[PMN1]

Originally Posted by Incognitia

Based on what Alratan says, sounds like the repair schedule is a bit rapid.

On the other hand, however, I would offer these considerations:

1) Landing 20 parties from several submarines for a near-simultaneous op is hugely ambitious, especially this early in the war. 1-2 parties from each submarine sounds more realistic; so therefore fewer breaks in the line. Look at how the Commando ops in Europe in a similar timeframe for a comparison.

2) To get off the sub, get to a suitable spot on the railway line, wire up a bridge/cutting/stretch of track for demolition and get back to the sub is going to take a while. I would anticipate that the troops wouldn't go too far from where they were landed before picking somewhere to blow, on the basis that any break in the line is a problem for the Japanese, so better to just blow some track and get away clear, than to get caught by a patrol while on the way to/while rigging a bridge for demolition and not break the line. As a result, the breaks should mostly be quite close to accessible landing spots - and thus possibly easier to repair.

Build in plenty of redundancy.........

[Peg Leg Pom]

Originally Posted by PMN1

In defence of RN torpedoes, that was down to ice......

Murphy and the sea don't play favorites, if they want to get you they will.

[Cymraeg]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

I imagine doctoral dissertations have been done on that subject, but I'll try to LIST some of the more salient points:

1) Never make the guy (Christie) who designed and approved a torpedo the same man who employs them in combat (kid with his hand in the cookie jar problem).
2) Never allow ONE state caucus (Rhode Island) to have 100% control over the development and procurement over all of your nation's torpedoes (NTS Torpedo, Rhode Island)
3) The problems were so severe/numerous, they could only be diagnosed and solved sequentially, meaning you could only find and solve problem A, THEN find and solve problem B, and so on, and so on, and so on...

The one shining light in this problem was that Christie could only coverup the problem in COMSUBSWPAC (Freemantle), not COMSUBPAC (Pearl Harbor), which was commanded by the far abler and more honest Charles Lockwood, who did NOT have his career on the line regarding the ability of the Mark XIV.

LOCKWOOD was able to convince Nimitz AND King of the problem. But so entrenched were the politicians in Congress and their little empire at NTS (plus the labor unions there, proving that the US was not immune to labor problems in WWII), that even regular direct orders from King himself were being blocked or side-tracked by every bureaucratic trick that could be mustered.

That is genuinely horrifying.

[Peg Leg Pom]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

I imagine doctoral dissertations have been done on that subject, but I'll try to LIST some of the more salient points:

1) Never make the guy (Christie) who designed and approved a torpedo the same man who employs them in combat (kid with his hand in the cookie jar problem).
2) Never allow ONE state caucus (Rhode Island) to have 100% control over the development and procurement over all of your nation's torpedoes (NTS Torpedo, Rhode Island)
3) The problems were so severe/numerous, they could only be diagnosed and solved sequentially, meaning you could only find and solve problem A, THEN find and solve problem B, and so on, and so on, and so on...

The one shining light in this problem was that Christie could only coverup the problem in COMSUBSWPAC (Freemantle), not COMSUBPAC (Pearl Harbor), which was commanded by the far abler and more honest Charles Lockwood, who did NOT have his career on the line regarding the ability of the Mark XIV.

LOCKWOOD was able to convince Nimitz AND King of the problem. But so entrenched were the politicians in Congress and their little empire at NTS (plus the labor unions there, proving that the US was not immune to labor problems in WWII), that even regular direct orders from King himself were being blocked or side-tracked by every bureaucratic trick that could be mustered.

I thought there were laws against this sort of conflict of interests, or is this part of what prompted the making of those laws?

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Cymraeg

That is genuinely horrifying.

Very, very true. Some people think that some should have been shot for treason. Makes the uk air ministry look ok.

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by Ash's Boomstick

Another of my possibly daft questions due to my lack of knowledge about the Pacific campaigns but...

What was the problem with the US Navy torpedoes exactly and why was it from what I can tell from on here that the logistics types didn't sort them out faster?

The magnetic exploder, which was supposed to trigger the torpedo warhead when it hit or came under a ship was defective early in the war. Older torpedoes, nearer to those of WW1, didn't have this piece of technology, and actually worked better than new torpedoes.

All US torpedoes up to at least the beginning of the war where designed and built solely at the naval station at Newport, Rhode Island. Due to only one design and construction location, combined with political influence from local members of Congress not to sort out or even test fire torpedoes, problems which could have easily been resolved or mitigated months if not years before the war where never done, both to protect the torpedo station, and to keep jobs and influence from leaving Rhode Island.

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by Garrison

They would be wide open to land based air and of course if they are assuming Somerville has at most two Fleet carriers when he could have four if Ark Royal is at Ceylon then the KB would face at least one massive strike from Force Z and frankly in those circumstances I just don't see a outcome that isn't a disaster for the IJN.
If on the other hand Pillar gets through unmolested then the Japanese can forget about Burma, Malaya and Singapore, and probably Borneo given how badly things are going there. If those places are all in allied hands then surely the rest of the DEI is out of reach as well?

They don't even know the convoy is on the way. Hard to launch an attack on something if you don't even know it's there.

Besides, once Halsey and Fletcher attack the Marshalls, even though it will just be a hit and run raid after which they run back to Hawaii, Nagumo and Yamamoto will not no that. Two of Nagumo's carriers are going to head for the Marshalls, at least for a couple of days.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

I thought there were laws against this sort of conflict of interests, or is this part of what prompted the making of those laws?

Actually, this was indeed part of the Military-Industrial Complex that Eisenhower denounced in his final address to the nation, the incestuous nature of senior military officers and the procurement process. There are laws at the lower levels, such as the Lincoln law, and the very expensive anti-sub-subcontracting laws, but that's about it.