The Whale has Wings

[Peg Leg Pom]

Presumably the Japanese scouts are making regular reports on heading and distance from wake, and a Japanese strike is in the process of forming. Halsey's going to be caught with planes being re-armed and fueled on deck.

Bugger.

Bugger Bugger Bugger.

Bugger.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by stevep

Astrodragon

So looks like Wake is definitely going down with that many forces successfully landed. Very worried about that last bit about the Japanese scouts tracking the returning strike a/c. Presumably the US carriers have radar so they might notice a couple of the returning a/c haven't landed and seem to be staying fairly distant.

It looks like things are going to get bloody and at least one US carrier is going down. Hopefully they take at least one of the Japanese ones with them. Or remember their orders, which would have them withdraw at this point, although that would be difficult, not to mention damaging to both moral and the navies prestige.

I think what Garrison meant about the separation was that the two carriers being 10 miles apart the expected deadly strike will only find one and the other will get in a counter.

Glad to see things are moving and waiting in expectation to see what happens.

Going to be messy for the USN if they do lose a carrier as well as Wake, so they better make sure they sink one of the Japanese carriers. If not you could see a head or two rolling.

Steve

PS On the question of the modified Star Trek, what's wrong with HMS Queen Elizabeth III, the reigning monarch at the time the programme is set.

Either yes they miss one of the carriers or the Lexington turns up later and catches the Japanese by surprise. Just have to hope the US carriers can do enough damage to keep Hiryu and Soryu away from the South China Sea if the rest of the KB is sent there.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

Presumably the Japanese scouts are making regular reports on heading and distance from wake, and a Japanese strike is in the process of forming. Halsey's going to be caught with planes being re-armed and fueled on deck.

I think Halsey's on the 3rd, more distant carrier, forget whether its Sara or Lex?

Bugger.

Bugger Bugger Bugger.

Bugger.

Otherwise agree with you it sounds like its going to go that way. Hopefully they only get one CV and the other is able to strike back.

Steve

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by stevep

I think Halsey's on the 3rd, more distant carrier, forget whether its Sara or Lex?

It's Lexington, I made that mistake earlier

Otherwise agree with you it sounds like its going to go that way. Hopefully they only get one CV and the other is able to strike back.

Steve

Not to mention grind down the Japanese air groups. As it stand something like the outcome at Coral Sea may be the best the USN can hope for.

[wietze]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

Bugger.

Bugger Bugger Bugger.

Bugger.

sigworthy

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by Garrison

It's Lexington, I made that mistake earlier





Not to mention grind down the Japanese air groups. As it stand something like the outcome at Coral Sea may be the best the USN can hope for.

No Garrison, Halsey is on the Enterprise, which was his flagship all the way through the Doolittle Raid. Fletcher and possibly Aubrey Fitch are aboard USS Saratoga, and Vice Admiral Wilson Brown is with Lexington.

Though to be honest I'm not sure if Brown himself is physically on the Lexington. Even though he was the senior officer with the Lexington Task Force through the beginning of April 1942, I've seen mention before that his personnal flagship was the cruiser Indianapolis.

For the carrier battle, I'm going to guess Saratoga has the worst danger. OTL, one problem Lexington had at Coral Sea was that because of her turning rate, due to being a converted battleship turned carrier, it took Lexington and presumably Saratoga a lot more space and time to maneuver, while ships like Yorktown and Enterprise, built from the keel up as aircraft carriers, where able to maneuver and turn a much tighter arc.

[Astrodragon]

Second Battle of Wake Island (part 2)

Meanwhile the US search aircraft had finally found something. Aided by earlier information from the island's defenders, they had made an educated guess as to the likely location of a Japanese carrier force which was in fact reasonably accurate. At 1100 they radio a report of 'two carriers and escorts sighted, 120 miles west of Wake Island'. Halsey immediately ordered the remaining dive bombers and torpedo planes to be readied for a strike on the Japanese carriers. The strike would launch as soon as the inbound planes from Wake, now almost back, had landed and been struck below. While this was going on the carriers would head northwest to close the distance (they were now some 150 miles south-east of the island, outside of comfortable strike range)

While the US carriers were fitted with radar, they as yet had nothing really like the capability of the RN carriers to process and handle the data and the airborne planes. It didn't help that while well-trained, the operators were somewhat distracted by the recovery of the first successful US carrier strike of the war. As a result the two Japanese search planes were able to get a good look at the force and radio its position without being discovered in all the excitement. Indeed it wasn't until the planes started to be launched and form up for the strike against the Japanese carriers that an operator realised that there were a couple of echoes on his screen that didn't seem to correspond with any of their own planes. A pair of Wildcats was sent to investigate, and a short time after they reported shooting down a Japanese floatplane which had failed to dodge into cloud cover fast enough.

While the American force had been closing the Japanese carriers and readying a strike, the Japanese had been doing exactly the same thing. Before it had to head home to refuel, the final US plane had spotted activity on the flight decks, but the need to keep hiding in clouds to avoid the prowling Zero's had made anything else too dangerous. As he headed home, the Japanese carriers were turning into the wind to launch their strike. With only two carriers available, and only 32 TBR and 32 DB available, they had decided to launch a full-strength attack against the American carriers spotted. For their part, the US carriers were sending off some 32 DB and 16 TBR with a small fighter escort (at this stage of the war, despite warnings from the Royal Navy, the US carriers were still operating with small fighter groups - as they expected to be fighting in mid-ocean rather than in range of land based strikes, more offensive power was seen as more useful than a better defence).

Although the US carriers had actually started to launch first (having had the planes pre-prepared for a strike), the Japanese were much more efficient at launching a daytime strike from two carriers, and their planes were heading for the US ships while the American planes were still forming up. In fact, the two US carriers never succeeded in joining up their planes into one large strike, and it would in fact arrive at the Japanese ships in two separate groups.

The two strikes actually passed each other on their separate ways, although neither side spotted the other. By reason of their better efficiency, it was the Japanese strike first detected inbound on the radar plot of the Enterprise. The two carriers immediately started preparations to receive an attack, fortunately the received strike was safely below decks, and the fighters had by now been refuelled and re-armed. This was just as well, as the two carriers only had 25 Wildcats between them, and ten had been sent off with the strike at escort. One of the planes from Wake was u/s due to AA damage, but by the time the Japanese planes were within 40 miles the remaining 14 were up to protect the ships.

The Japanese were in fact heading directly for the Saratoga; later reports indicated they had initially missed the Enterprise, not realising how far apart US carriers tended to operate at this stage in the war, and having seen one very large carrier had headed straight for it. The strike consisted of 32 Val dive bombers, 32 Kate torpedo bombers, escorted by 12 Zeros. The Wildcats intercepted the strike some 15 miles out from the carrier, going for the torpedo bombers (seen as the more dangerous of the attacking planes). However the Zeroes had been waiting for this, and moved in to protect their charges. Although information from the British on the results and suggested tactics against the Zero had been passed on to Pearl, the carrier force had already left, and so were still using the pre-war doctrine. This was a mistake. While the Wildcats did succeed in shooting down two of the torpedo planes, and three of the Zeros, far too many allowed themselves to be drawn into low speed turning fights, and only three of them finally managed to get away from the Japanese, two of them damaged.

The attack by the Wildcats had succeeded in one thing - it had decoupled the dive bombers from the torpedo planes. As a result the dive bombers would be the first planes to attack the Saratoga. The Japanese aircrew were still searching for the second carrier they believed to be in the area, and so the first attack was by sixteen Val's, which drove down towards the huge US carrier in nearly vertical dives. The AA fire from the ship and the two close-by cruisers, while heavy, was not nearly enough to deflect the attack. In quick succession, three 250kg bombs struck the flight deck of the carrier, despite her best efforts at dodging (sadly, the Saratoga was not the most agile of carriers). One sliced in forward of the hangar, destroying the catapult and the first 50 foot of the deck; the other two did more serious damage, slicing through the thin wooden flight deck, one bursting in the hangar, the other going even deeper, splinters shutting down the forward engine room in a burst of escaping steam. The planes in the hangar were not fuelled, but the bursting HE bomb did considerable damage and started a large fire which quickly plumed into the air above the ship.

While the Saratoga was still reeling from the impact of the bombs, her lookouts spotted the Japanese torpedo planes boring in. With no fighter opposition left, they had split into two formations, allowing a classic hammer and anvil attack. The Saratoga, still manoeuvring despite her heavy damage, managed to slip past the first wave of torpedoes, but two of those launched on her other side hit; the one that struck amidships did minor damage, the big ship absorbing the hit, but the second hit further aft, starting to flood her engineering spaces, the shock damage cutting her power and causing her to start to slow to a stop. Ironically the sudden loss of speed actually helped her to avoid some of the second strike, the torpedoes passing her forward, but the Japanese naval pilots were highly skilled, and she was hit by three more torpedoes, causing the now almost stationary carrier to start to list steadily to port.

The dive bombers, busy during this attack searching for the second US carrier, had finally found her. The Enterprise, however, was a more difficult target than the lumbering Saratoga. Despite the best efforts of the Val pilots, she twisted and turned, evading all the bombs except the last one. That hit her just forward of her island, right in the centre of the flight deck, exploding in the hangar below. Again, there were no fuelled planes below, but it would take some time to bring the fire under control. Indeed, the smoke billowing up through the hole in her deck was so thick the Japanese pilots were already convinced that she was sinking. In fact she was in no real danger, and her damage control teams had got the fire out in 40 minutes, the crews already repairing the deck with the urgency of men who knew their planes were about to return, and had nowhere else to land.

[Cymraeg]

Oh crap, the Sara's dead, but at least the Enterprise is still fighting.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Cymraeg

Oh crap, the Sara's dead, but at least the Enterprise is still fighting.

Cymraeg

The two saving graces are:

a) the Japanese think she's dead, which means they probably won't follow up. She should be able to get away as its already fairly long range.

b) For the US attack Astrodragon said.

In fact, the two US carriers never succeeded in joining up their planes into one large strike, and it would in fact arrive at the Japanese ships in two separate groups.

Now why do I think of Midway here? They may not get both carriers but I think whichever group gets there 2nd are going to have a fairly free shot at something. [Whichever arrives 1st is likely to get very badly shot up however.]

Hope someone remembers to recall those cruisers. If they don't disable both CVs the surface units aren't likely to last long if they show up at Wake.

Steve

[Peg Leg Pom]

Originally Posted by stevep

Cymraeg

The two saving graces are:

a) the Japanese think she's dead, which means they probably won't follow up. She should be able to get away as its already fairly long range.

With fires burning, five torpedos in her and no propulsion she is dead. At heart she's a WWI battlecruiser designed without the painfull experience of Jutland and no Battlecruiser could survive five torpedos.

Originally Posted by stevep

Now why do I think of Midway here? They may not get both carriers but I think whichever group gets there 2nd are going to have a fairly free shot at something. [Whichever arrives 1st is likely to get very badly shot up however.]

Hope someone remembers to recall those cruisers. If they don't disable both CVs the surface units aren't likely to last long if they show up at Wake.

Steve

The question is can the US planes attack before a second strike launches, if not Enterprise will recieve that strikes undivided attention and she may mistake the inbound strike for her own planes returning. By the time Lexington joins up all four of the engaged carriers my be wrecked. The USN may have control of the battle area but it would be very much a phyric victory.

[e of pi]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

With fires burning, five torpedos in her and no propulsion she is dead. At heart she's a WWI battlecruiser designed without the painfull experience of Jutland and no Battlecruiser could survive five torpedos.

Not Sara, they mean Enterprise, who was a Yorktown-class and also you'll note took a single bomb hit and no torpedoes. So, yes, Enterprise is not dead, though the Japanese are likely to end up thinking she is. 5 torpedoes and burning fires do doom Saratoga, but Enterprise can be returned to the fight[/QUOTE]

[Hyperion]

I'm confused.

In addition to whatever fighters where assigned directly to the ship, what happened to VF-221, the Marine fighter squadron that Saratoga took onboard to reinforce Wake. Did you count those, or would they be in addition to the squadrons of the two carriers.

If that be the case, perhaps you shoud reevaluate the number of available Wildcats.

Other then that, you fucked up bigtime.

Wake, OTL only having at most three or four Wildcats shot down over 20 landbased aircraff and two aircraft from Hiryu.

Yet you have more than twice that number only getting the same amount of kills. What the.

[High Plains Drifter]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

The question is can the US planes attack before a second strike launches, if not Enterprise will recieve that strikes undivided attention and she may mistake the inbound strike for her own planes returning. By the time Lexington joins up all four of the engaged carriers my be wrecked. The USN may have control of the battle area but it would be very much a phyric victory.

There will be no second strike until the Hiryu and Soryu recover, rearm, and relaunch the first strike. 32 Vals and 32 Kates is all the two IJN carriers had operational. At Pearl Harbor each one only had 18 Vals and 18 Kates, so clearly they've shot their proverbial wad.

Based on A) the time of day (the first spotting didn't occur till 1100) and B) any possible damage by the US inbound strike, will there even be time to recover, rearm, and relaunch a second strike that could reasonably be expected to return before dark? Might be enough to get the cruisers if they are hanging around Wake itself.

How are the Soryu and Hiryu sitting for fuel, av fuel, and munitions right about now? Can they run combat operations for another day or two?


Lexington showing up to find a lost Wake and 2 wrecked US carriers versus 2 wrecked Japanese carriers might look like a loss to the American public, but it would be a huge victory long term for the Allies.

[perfectgeneral]

Originally Posted by stevep

b0ned0me

I have also heard differing views on how effect Tito's partisans actually were, along with the fact that once Churchill decided to support them they received vastly more supplies than the royalists. Think it could go either way.

I think if Britain sticks with the royalists it will have more support in Serbia, which is their heartland but less in several of the other republics. If they switch to Tito then they will have less support there because he will suppress the Serbs to stop them dominating the state as before.

Steve

A Danube campaign would benefit from access through Serbia. With that in mind there is a driver for backing the Royalists in TTL.

[Peg Leg Pom]

Originally Posted by High Plains Drifter

There will be no second strike until the Hiryu and Soryu recover, rearm, and relaunch the first strike. 32 Vals and 32 Kates is all the two IJN carriers had operational. At Pearl Harbor each one only had 18 Vals and 18 Kates, so clearly they've shot their proverbial wad.

Only 1 squdron of each per ship? That seams a little light given their capacity.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

What's wrong with Star Trek : Illustrious?

Because NBC will never even buy the series?

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by wietze

in this atl, star trek might end up being made by the bbc or itv
Star Trek: Ark Royal

edit: hmmz ninjad ..but GMTA

Based on British television and its exploits with Space:1999, UFO, and Dr. Who, I don't see a 50 year franchise emerging... Besides, Gene Roddenberry isn't moving to London. You don't go to work for the BBC to make $$$. You do it because you have no other better choice. Edward Woodward made more $$$ in just one season of "The Equalizer" in the States than he had in a whole career in British television.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

I'm confused.

In addition to whatever fighters where assigned directly to the ship, what happened to VF-221, the Marine fighter squadron that Saratoga took onboard to reinforce Wake. Did you count those, or would they be in addition to the squadrons of the two carriers.

If that be the case, perhaps you shoud reevaluate the number of available Wildcats.

Other then that, you fucked up bigtime.

Wake, OTL only having at most three or four Wildcats shot down over 20 landbased aircraff and two aircraft from Hiryu.

Yet you have more than twice that number only getting the same amount of kills. What the.

Hyperion

At most, if you're right, this means a half-dozen more Zeroes lost, and a couple more Kates. No real change. Save for denuding the Hiryu and Soryu a little more in aircraft complement.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

Only 1 squdron of each per ship? That seams a little light given their capacity.

That's correct. The Hiryu and Soryu were the smallest Fleet CVs of the KB.

[perfectgeneral]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

Based on British television and its exploits with Space:1999, UFO, and Dr. Who, I don't see a 50 year franchise emerging... Besides, Gene Roddenberry isn't moving to London. You don't go to work for the BBC to make $$$. You do it because you have no other better choice. Edward Woodward made more $$$ in just one season of "The Equalizer" in the States than he had in a whole career in British television.

You don't make 'The Equalizer' to add to your body of work, to hone your acting craft, you do it to make money. Many people who work for the Big Bottle Cider do make shedloads of money using the skills and opportunities they found in Auntie (as much a national treasure as the NHS).

To say that Edward Woodward's career was in television is to do him an injustice.

Woodward was a wargamer and hosted a series of programmes for Tyne Tees Television[20] in 1978 about the hobby with fellow enthusiast Peter Gilder, who built and owned the beautiful Gettysburg diorama used for one of the gaming scenes from the 1974 film Callan.

First and foremost he was a wargamer.