The Whale has Wings

[Alratan]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

I'm sure that once they stabilise the front in Malaya someone is going to point out that now the navy has pretty much a chokehold on the convoys, all the Japanese supplies are coming down one awfully vulnerable railroad...

I'm pretty sure pre-war plans for intervention in Thailand involved cutting the railway. They presumably have dusted those off.

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Remember, its not going to be clear for a little while that the convoys have been stopped, or at least curtailed.

That's true, but even if the convoys haven't stopped, it'll be clear that they aren't running directly to the Kra, and must at least be unloading in Bangkok.

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Of course, even if the railway is taken out, its going to be possible to move supplies.

It would be very, very difficult. Remember there isn't really anything in the way of roads for them to travel on - you can't just truck things down from Bangkok to the front, as bridges wide/strong enough to take the lorries don't exist. Unless you want to carry things by mule, you're stuck. Forget sending tanks, replacement aircraft engines, or heavy artillery shells.

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

But doing that will make it pretty much impossible to go into Burma. And if he doesn't take Rangoon by the start of the Monsoon, he's screwed there too...

I don't really see why it has to. The attack into Burma is dependent on different logistical links than into Malaya. You can cut off the Malayan front and still bring in fresh troops from China via the Indochinese and the rest of the Thai railway network.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Alratan

I don't really see why it has to. The attack into Burma is dependent on different logistical links than into Malaya. You can cut off the Malayan front and still bring in fresh troops from China via the Indochinese and the rest of the Thai railway network.

Because if the railway is cut and they are using all available means to run supplies down the east coast, those same available means arent there to run stuff into Burma...
You can get the stuff close to the Burmese border by train, sure, but what do you do then?? Mules, OTL. but they may be using them elsewhere...

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Because if the railway is cut and they are using all available means to run supplies down the east coast, those same available means arent there to run stuff into Burma...
You can get the stuff close to the Burmese border by train, sure, but what do you do then?? Mules, OTL. but they may be using them elsewhere...

Not to mention that with the losses taken in supplies and equipment on the other fronts does Japan have the materiel to support yet another operation, especially if the second attempt at Wake goes badly?

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Not to mention that with the losses taken in supplies and equipment on the other fronts does Japan have the materiel to support yet another operation, especially if the second attempt at Wake goes badly?

Japan was still doing operations in China, so I assume the supplies are available, especially if they cut back in China a little.

The problem is actually getting them where they want them.

[DD951]

Originally Posted by StevoJH

That would be Admiral Harold Stark.

What I don't get, is how someone goes from being CNO, to being a subordinate officer. If they arent wanted in that position, shouldn't they be retired?

In starks case he got transferred from being head of the entire Navy to being given command of a regional command, the guy who replaced him King then got promoted to five star admiral (possibly because he reached mandatory retirement age).

The answers to your questions are going to be a bit long & complicated, and have a lot to do with the messy organization of the USN pre-WW2.

First of all, until some time into WW2, Rear Admiral was the highest permanent rank in the USN, with Vice-Admiral & Admiral being temporary appointments that went with certain postings, & it wasn't unknown for an officer who completed a tour in one of the 4-star billets or a 3-star one but was passed over for a 4-star one to stay in the service as a rear admiral & mark time until retirement age (64) at some post; the General Board (a brain trust of admirals who contemplated policy issues & advised the CNO & the Secretary of the Navy) was a common place for this- for example King, after his tour as Commander, Aircraft Battle Force (a 3-star posting) was passed over for the 4-star billets (CNO, CINCUS, & the Asiatic Fleet), & reverted to being a rear admiral, & was assigned to the General Board to serve out the rest of his career, only to be called back into operational service to take command of the Atlantic Fleet when it was stood up in response to events in Europe early in WW2; another example was Claude Bloch, a former CINCUS, who was the commandant of the 14th Naval District (Hawaii) on Dec. 7, & probably bore a big chunk of responsibility for what happened that day, except that he was overlooked by the inquiries.

Also, during WW2, it was common for officers who would normally have retired or were already retired to be kept on in administrative, advisory, & rear-area positions where their experience could be utilized while freeing younger, presumably more energetic, admirals for operational postings- Stark going to London is one example of this; others being James Richardson being called back to chair the General Board, Pye being sent to run the Naval War College.

Secondly, under the inter-war organization of the USN, it could almost be said to have two heads, the CNO & CINCUS.

The CNO was in theory the Naval Chief of Staff & chief naval adviser to the President & the Secretary of the Navy, and supposedly had authority over general strategy, as well as authority over naval policy, the bureaus, the General Board, procurement & construction, administration, the shore establishment, R&D, shore training, and handled political matters.

CINCUS (Commander in Chief, US Fleet) in theory exercised command over all operational forces of the USN & USMC, & in time of war, would be the supreme commander as far as the naval side of things were concerned & would exercise. some operational control over Army units in appropriate circumstances (such as those units assigned to conduct amphibious or garrison operations in a Plan Orange offensive.)

The United States Fleet was a blanket organization that contained all operational elements of the naval service as well as some shore establishments, & IIRC, consisted of the following elements:
* the Asiatic Fleet (although essentially a destroyer squadron & a gunboat squadron supported by a couple cruisers, some submarines, a regiment of Marines, and mine warfare, aviation, & auxiliary elements, it was a 4-star billet because of diplomatic prestige & the possibility of becoming a major operational command in wartime)
* the Battle Force- the bulk of the USN; had most surface combatants & naval aviation units; spent most of its time in the Pacific
* the misleadingly named Scouting Force- the old formerly coal-burning battleships plus their screen of cruisers & destroyers; largely stayed in the Atlantic to form the bulk of the naval presence there
* the Control Force- subs, mine-warfare vessels, gunboats, & other patrol craft
* the Service Force- the assorted transports & auxiliaries that would form the fleet train, as well as haul troops & supplies in wartime
* the Fleet Marine Force- pretty much all elements of the USMC available for operational deployment as opposed to being stateside bases & establishments
* the Base Force- ran the bases used by the other parts of the fleet, as well as responsible for expeditionary deployments to construct & operate forward bases in times of war

Each of those forces, except for the Asiatic Fleet, were divided into type commands (i.e. battleships, cruisers), which were further subdivided into squadrons & divisions that would be the building blocks of operational task forces.

The Scouting Force, in response to the growing crisis in Europe, underwent several reorganizations starting in 1939, culminating with it being upgraded into the Atlantic Fleet in Feb., 1941, & gaining control of aviation units, as well as those elements of the Control, Service, Base, & Marine forces located in the East Coast, Caribbean, or otherwise in the Atlantic, being reinforced with both new construction & units diverted from the Pacific. As the US Fleet was not an organizational structure suited for warfare, upon the US entry into WW2, it & its subordinate components not already part of the Atlantic Fleet were dissolved as operational commands, effectively becoming the newly-formed Pacific Fleet, which also gained the remnants of the Asiatic Fleet's units, command structure & responsibilities upon the dissolution of that command.

The actual division of authority between CNO & CINCUS was unclear & blurry at best, and often depended on the political situation and the interplay of personalities & capabilities between the SecNav, CNO, & CINCUS as well as relative seniority between the 2 officers, so King wouldn't necessarily have been Stark's subordinate by any measure except by time in grade.

It was recognized that this was an unwieldy arrangement ill-suited for conducting a war after the first couple months, & could have caused many unnecessary complications were it not for King wearing both hats by means of an executive order in March, 1942. This eventually led to the practical state of affairs being permanently enshrined in a reorganization of the USN that formally took effect right after the end of WW2, which abolished the office of CINCUS & the US Fleet as an administrative organization, & transferred its authority & duties to the office of the CNO, except for those bits which were better delegated to the 2 major fleets.

Probably a whole lot more than you wanted to know, but that's the explanation you were looking for in your question.

[Ramp-Rat]

For kessock and anyone else who might be interested, a possible solution to the problem of British post WWI debt in the US.

The first thing is to clarify the nature of the debt; it wasn’t a government to government loan, as was the case post WWII. What had happened was the British government via British and American intermediaries, offered fro sale a number of bonds on the American money market. These were brought by various intuitions and private citizens, who held them in the expectation of receipt of dividend, and redemption. Britan then ether spent the monies razed in America on supplies or acting themselves at intermediaries, passed the money on to Allied Governments.

This was done as it was far easier for Britain to borrow money than it was for the governments in question. They in turn used the monies, to pay for supplies from ether Britain or America. The end of the war, and the radical changes in Europe, brought this house of cards crashing down. Some nations, i.e. the new Soviet Union repudiated all debts and loans made by the presiding Russian Government. Others caught up in by serious financial problems, just couldn’t afford to pay. Britain was caught between a rock and a hard place. And she too, had financial problems, caused by a post war slump, which extended for a number of years. It should be remembered that normal pre-war international trade had been massively disrupted by the war. And with Germany, a very vital part of the European economy, at first excluded, and then thanks to reparations constrained in its recovery. Events were conspiring to make it impossible for Britain to meet all her obligations.

What was needed was an intervention, one that would help Britain meet her obligations, while at the same time enable the American holders of bonds to move said bonds from the negative to positive side of their balance sheets. There was a precedent for this; Britain had at the end of the Napoleonic wars seen its national debt spiral out of control. In response the British government introduced a new perpetual bond, rolling all previous debts into one. This consolidated perpetual 3% bond became know as a consol. And you can if you want, still buy them to this day, your chances of ever receiving the capital value of them is slim to none, but the pay a steady 2 and a bit present a year.

Note this is on a nominal 100 pound bond, not that you would pay that for one, the bonds are tradable, and sell for a market price. This means that the yield on them is higher than the nominal interest rate. That is if you pay fifty pounds for a bond the yield is 6%.

Now in agreement with the American government, Britain gets them, the American government to establish such a bond in American consolidating all outstanding British loans into one, which is now held by the American government. With a suitable discount to take into account defaults to Britain, this bond will reduce and stabilize British repayments. Remove from the public domain the question of said repayments, it now become an intergovernmental question, and to a degree satisfy American bond holders. They now receive a fixed income, and the debt on the balance sheet is a performing one, as to being a nonperforming one.

Britain would now via the American government be responsible for the interest payments only, and could just about afford this. Note the American would have to make sure the big boys didn’t catch them out, that is insert a clauses that if Britain brought bond on the open market, interest payment stopped, and Britain was responsible for paying the difference between the purchase price and the nominal value of the bond.

That is one way that the impasse might have been resolved, to both Britain and Americas benefit.

[DD951]

Originally Posted by stevep

Hyperion

While its harsh on the poor sods suck in Bataan the problem is this is a pretty poor use of submarines. The Japanese did a lot of this OTL, sending supplies to various isolated outposts and it basically took them away from the far more important job of screwing enemy logistics, or in the Japanese case trying to.

Not sure of the ranges but at least the larger boats were designed with the Asian/Pacific theatre in mind so should be able to reach pretty far. However other than the occasional import ferry operation or more likely to deliver commando type raiders they are used best by far in attacking Japanese ships and supply lines.

I was being rather tongue in cheek and think that for a while yet there will be some rich targets in the SEA region. After all there are all the sea-bourne invasions the Japanese are planning and sooner or later they are going to have to send more ships south to finish off the British fleet. Especially when they realise how much is actually left. Until then I suspect it would be strategically a very bad move to switch more than a few away from the immediate area.

One obvious cause for a one-off mission might be to get certain key personal out of Bataan. Unfortunately only one such person seems to be politically likely. Which means Astrodragon would probably come under pressure to sink the sub involved.

Steve

Although it is a poor use of subs in most circumstances, given how useless the Mk 14 is ATM, not sure if it would be any less productive to use a few US fleet boats to run some supplies into Bataan & Corregidor & key folks out.

Besides, there are some people that should be evacuated if at all practical beyond MacArthur- there's all the codebreakers & other cryptography & intel folks, who know too much & can be very useful elsewhere, some of the staff & command types who might be useful in providing an experienced cadre for the army reinforcements the US might deploy to Australia/the DEI, some of the AAF pilots, aircrew & ground crews (who won't be that useful as infantry) so there's a somewhat experienced cadre to reform their squadrons & stiffen new ones, & perhaps even a small sprinkling of ground troops if any, perhaps somewhat wounded, can be spared to give someone to give new units the benefits of what experience they do have in fighting the Japanese.

Perhaps not the most efficient use of submarines, even ones with crappy torpedoes, but it could serve a useful purpose. If Argonaut wasn't in desperate need of an overhaul, that's one boat that could be dedicated to that sort of stuff without really taking a useful sub off the line; however Narwhal & Nautilus both have some use as attack boats even if they were generally used as transports most of the time.

[Gannt the chartist]

The war is 2 weeks old and most of the allied staffs are trying to find out where the carbon paper is so we should not expect miracles or fancy ops.

On Wake is there anything to stop the whole of KB being diverted to Wake if they detect the presence of US Carriers? (presumably detected when Sara gets torpedoed). I ask because 6 vs 3 and the 3 US operating dispersed with poorly organised but actually effective air groups could have interesting consequences. First is that I would assume all three US get at least badly damaged and that a significant portion of KB survive. Second KB learn how vulnerable they are to air attack and how poor their search procedures are with time and carriers left to do something about it. Third is the war might last a bit longer and I like this TL.

On Japanese supplies and choke points the RN had a practice in North Africa (Force K?) of running DD and CL on night bombardment missions of coast roads which at the least would serve as cover for the insertion of spotter teams but it is really a bit early for trained special forces types.

However I have forgotten how you handled the politics of Ethiopia after the Italians were kicked out and if a little different the Brits have a spare insane naked Brigadier not recovering from an atrabine overdose available early to get Biblical on the Japanites and there is at least one British corps commander (OTL) who thinks that ordinary infantry battalions can do anything SF can do, and then went on to prove it.

Realistically though there is little prospect for serious allied offensive action until very late in 42, a lot of local effort will have to go into plugging holes in the DEI and key island defence, even if there is a reserve building up priority will be to Europe or the USSR. One consequence of a more passive RAF over Germany is less demand for Luftwaffe units at home and AA, meaning more bombers and artillery tubes for the Eastern Front.

Except there will 1st Marine Div.

Actually you could make Macarthur subordinate to Alexander ('no, no, no my dear Douglas that will NEVER do') and then have him blown up in the khazi while drunk on cheap gin at the shame of being the only person unable to converse in classical Greek.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Alratan

On the railway attack, I've just taken a look at its route on Google Earth and there are quite a lot of bridges very close to the coast. Even though destroying rolling stock is important, a series of night attacks to blow up multiple bridges would cause enormous disruption.

Alratan

Or getting greedy, blowing up a railway bridge or two with a juicy troop train or munitions load crossing over it.

A couple of breaks near each end would tend to isolate everything on the stretch, which might make them vulnerable to further attack, or even wear and tear in the conditions while repairs would presumably have to come from the north.

Steve

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Gannt the chartist

The war is 2 weeks old and most of the allied staffs are trying to find out where the carbon paper is so we should not expect miracles or fancy ops.

On Wake is there anything to stop the whole of KB being diverted to Wake if they detect the presence of US Carriers? (presumably detected when Sara gets torpedoed). I ask because 6 vs 3 and the 3 US operating dispersed with poorly organised but actually effective air groups could have interesting consequences. First is that I would assume all three US get at least badly damaged and that a significant portion of KB survive. Second KB learn how vulnerable they are to air attack and how poor their search procedures are with time and carriers left to do something about it. Third is the war might last a bit longer and I like this TL.

I think its unlikely the Japanese would get any advance warning of the US carriers being in the vicinity and by the time they do know it would be too late to reinforce Hiryu and Soryu. Most likely it's a confused mess of a battle between the two experienced but fragile IJN carriers and the three tougher but very green USN carriers. The IJN comes out ahead in the numbers game but the relief force achieves its strategic goal by allowing Wake to survive the second invasion attempt.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Gannt the chartist

The war is 2 weeks old and most of the allied staffs are trying to find out where the carbon paper is so we should not expect miracles or fancy ops.

Or in certain cases where the toilet paper is....

Originally Posted by Gannt the chartist

On Japanese supplies and choke points the RN had a practice in North Africa (Force K?) of running DD and CL on night bombardment missions of coast roads which at the least would serve as cover for the insertion of spotter teams but it is really a bit early for trained special forces types.

They actually had SOE teams available in OTL, they went in to West Thailand at the start, but the general collapse meant they werent used after that.
And there is rarely any shortage of aggressive destroyer captains in the RN...

[Faralis]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Actually, it could get even worse for the USN...

If the Burma road stays open, and its (relatively) easy to get supplies and men to China, there is always the possibility of a land attack through China to the coast, then bomb Japan from the mainland...

I know this would be out of your story, but the MASSIVE BUTTERFLIES that this would produce in China alone would be staggering ... and after that the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by Gannt the chartist

Actually you could make Macarthur subordinate to Alexander ('no, no, no my dear Douglas that will NEVER do') and then have him blown up in the khazi while drunk on cheap gin at the shame of being the only person unable to converse in classical Greek.

Damn I laughed too hard at this part and now my father is looking at me as if I were crazy ( which is probably truth anyway ).
Of course after commenting the reason he chucked quite a bit too ...

EDIT: Old Mac as a second ( if survives eating his own ego, of course ) would be an actually decent job for him ( I´m scared that I´m writing this seriously ).

[Dable]

PNM1
I d'ont think the infrastructure on Crete matters as much as communications if you have reasonably safe sea lanes going to an again reasonbly safe harbour,a short road going to an airfield you can start bombing easily.
Reasonably safe-5% losses. Not having U-boats sitting outside the harbour and the Luftwaffe constantly overhead.

[rip89]

First of all I would like to say well done on an excellent and
enthralling timeline so far. Now a question will you be giving an
Update on the RN construction plans as they stand at the moment?
Only asking as it's a bit hard to keep up with what's going
on in this regard due to the size of this thread.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Exactly how far is this railway from the coast anyway...??

At one place about 230 m.

[Peg Leg Pom]

Originally Posted by abc123

At one place about 230 m.

If that's next to a nice flat beach instead of a cliff....

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

If that's next to a nice flat beach instead of a cliff....

It seems to me that the area in question is generally pretty flat, with nice beaches...

IMO commando raid, or even better several of them at the same time, in 4-5 places where they would go in, destroy the railway and all objects ( I saw couple of small bridges there ) like tunnels and bridges and then retreat, could be easy to do and very smart from strategic point of view.

Hell, I found it on one place only 80 m from sea, they could easily throw rocks on railroad from a submarine...

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by abc123

It seems to me that the area in question is generally pretty flat, with nice beaches...

IMO commando raid, or even better several of them at the same time, in 4-5 places where they would go in, destroy the railway and all objects ( I saw couple of small bridges there ) like tunnels and bridges and then retreat, could be easy to do and very smart from strategic point of view.

Hell, I found it on one place only 80 m from sea, they could easily throw rocks on railroad from a submarine...

So what your saying then is that its not a secure supply line ?

[Peg Leg Pom]

So you bury a land mine under a sleeper and when the locomotive reaches it. Oh well there's always the old fashioned form of logistics, round up a couple of thousand "willing volunteers" and have them shift the supplies. Who knows maybe they will "donate" their stored food supply to the gallant soldiers, and arn't their sisters friendly once you cure them of that unfortunate shyness?

[sonofpegasus]

been away two weeks and just caught up Well done AD.
From memory RN submarines bombarded coastal railway lines with their deck guns in both world wars. Also in the first world war patries were landed to blow up varous lines of the Turkish railways in Anatolia if my recall is correct. So somewhere there are Submarine commanders just itching to have a go at that railway line and emmulate their forebears, A railway locomotive looks so good on your Jolly Roger!
One comment on the very good and intresting drawing of the George IV. On other capital ships of the RN when the aircaft facilities were removed during the war it was usual practice to move the boat storage to a splinter proof shelter serviced by the aircraft handling cranes. This frees up the area abaft the after funnel for AA guns, whilst still facilitaing some mounts on either beam. The rest of the space gained was usualy used to provide accomodation and control spaces due to increased wartime equipment (AA guns, radars,coms etc.)