The Whale has Wings

[Incognitia]

Originally Posted by pdf27

How plausible is a UK/Empire amphibious landing to take the Isthmus of Kra and completely cut off the Japanese invasion force? I'm assuming it wouldn't be attempted for some time (until the Japanese were a good deal further down the Malayan peninsula) so that leaves time for some preparation/reinforcement.

With the Commandos + small number of landing craft requested getting ashore and seizing a small area shouldn't be a problem, and presumably the coastlines wouldn't be heavily fortified. Does the UK have suitable sea-lift in theatre to get say a divisional sized force ashore to block the isthmus ashore, and keep it supplied?

Shades of M*******r at Inchon...

It's an ambitious and aggressive operation which could appeal to certain commanders; however, it is highly risky, and the sea-lift is unlikely to be available.
Also, I mean, we know the Japanese were logistically light and ran on a shoe-string, but surely even they won't neglect to have covered good landing sites in their rear?

[Alratan]

Originally Posted by Incognitia

Also, I mean, we know the Japanese were logistically light and ran on a shoe-string, but surely even they won't neglect to have covered good landing sites in their rear?

IF you were going for this operation, you wouldn't attack that far south, you'd look at the map:

Land just north of Pratchuab Khiri Khan, where the railway runs along the coast. The commandos can then very thoroughly blow up a few miles of the railway and the embankment it runs on with minimal opposition, crippling the IJA supply lines in the process.

This could probably be accomplished without them firing a single shot.

[MattII]

Originally Posted by Roisterer

Minor nitpick:
I thought the name Royal Oak dates after Charles II

Damn got my wires crossed on that one.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Incognitia

It's an ambitious and aggressive operation which could appeal to certain commanders; however, it is highly risky, and the sea-lift is unlikely to be available.
Also, I mean, we know the Japanese were logistically light and ran on a shoe-string, but surely even they won't neglect to have covered good landing sites in their rear?

Might work at a later stage if the Japanese throw everything forward to try and break through.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Alratan

IF you were going for this operation, you wouldn't attack that far south, you'd look at the map:

Land just north of Pratchuab Khiri Khan, where the railway runs along the coast. The commandos can then very thoroughly blow up a few miles of the railway and the embankment it runs on with minimal opposition, crippling the IJA supply lines in the process.

This could probably be accomplished without them firing a single shot.

Thanks for the map, makes it very clear that if Somerville gets the commandos he wants the Japanese can forget running supplies on that railway.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Thanks for the map, makes it very clear that if Somerville gets the commandos he wants the Japanese can forget running supplies on that railway.

Indeed, I guess David Stirling and co will play a significant part later on.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

Indeed, I guess David Stirling and co will play a significant part later on.

They're probably getting boredin the Mediterranean

[sloreck]

With the UK having taken several islands in Aegean, and more to come and the RN pretty well in command of the Eastern Med with the RM impotent, and don't forget Crete still in Allied hands... Sending B-24's to the Aegean Islands/Crete rather than N. Africa puts them in range of Romanian oil fields & other Balkan targets (including RR choke points) & even allows some fighter coverage for part of the attacks (P-38's). This potentially allows attacks on some supply lines to the Eastern Front as well as Axis targets in the Black Sea region.

Attacking German oil resources earlier & more effectively will be good, and attacks in the east will be a "visible" element of support for the USSR..and politically useful.

[Astrodragon]

While Britain technically has the resources to do a major landing in SE Asia, i practice its politically impossible due to the need to attack in the Med.

What Somerville and his planners are thinking of is large scale commando raids, landings to secure say a port for later use, small-medium scale things. That he can probably get the necessary landing craft and Commandoes for.

And yes, that railway line does look soooo tempting...

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by sloreck

With the UK having taken several islands in Aegean, and more to come and the RN pretty well in command of the Eastern Med with the RM impotent, and don't forget Crete still in Allied hands... Sending B-24's to the Aegean Islands/Crete rather than N. Africa puts them in range of Romanian oil fields & other Balkan targets (including RR choke points) & even allows some fighter coverage for part of the attacks (P-38's). This potentially allows attacks on some supply lines to the Eastern Front as well as Axis targets in the Black Sea region.

Attacking German oil resources earlier & more effectively will be good, and attacks in the east will be a "visible" element of support for the USSR..and politically useful.

The BIG problem with conducting raids on that scale in the Balkans is the infrastructure needed to support a bombing Group. The logistics were massive even in the UK.

[Astrodragon]

Dec 19th

General Brauchitsch is formally removed as Commander-in-Chief. Hitler assumes the duties personally. The German attacks on Sevastopol continue. The Soviets managing to bring in 14,000 reinforcements via sea between today and the 25th. The Red Army is still pressing the Germans back in the north, as the German Army suffers from the extreme cold.

The USN’s Task Force 8 (TF 8) (Vice Admiral Halsey), formed around the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise (CV-6), heavy cruisers, and destroyers, sails from Pearl Harbor. It is tasked to join with TF11 and support the reinforcement of Wake Island. Since Admiral Fletcher's force is expected to pause to refuel (so his lighter units are able to fully use their speed in case of attack), he is expected to join up with him just before he reaches Wake. Current intelligence is mixed; the Japanese obviously got a bloody nose on their first attack, and are preparing for a second. There is unsubstantiated reports that a carrier is being sent to the area, and also battleships, though this is seen as less likely with the sinking by the Royal Navy of two of the IJN's 11 battleships in the South China Sea.

The battleships HMS Valiant and HMS Malaya, moored at Alexandria, are badly damaged by explosions under their keels planted by Human Torpedo's operated by Italian frogmen of the Decima Flottiglia MAS. The damage is so great that these two ships are deemed unseaworthy. However as both of them are in the shallow harbour, reconnaissance photographs taken by the Italians indicate the attack was a failure and the ships are still operational.

In northern Malaya the planned withdrawal from Jitra goes ahead, covered by the artillery firing off all its remaining stocks (a shortage of shells due to the Japanese attacks and the consequent difficulty of resupply was one reason behind the withdrawal. The infantry head south, covered by the remaining Matilda tanks. Only 8 remain operational; 22 have been lost, although only 7 in combat, usually to a suicidal attack by Japanese infantry with satchel charges, the Matilda being immune to any conventional weapons possessed by the Japanese. The others have been lost to the Matilda's perennial problem, mechanical breakdown. While a withdrawal under fire is always a difficult operation, the experienced troops carry it off with efficiency, aided by the heavy Japanese losses - this has made the commanders at the front rather wary of the Australians, and by the time they realise this is a withdrawal rather than a trap the Australians are on their way south.

The Japanese convoy which attracted the attentions of HMS Unbroken yesterday has continued on to Borneo, where it lands elements of the 16th Division at Miri, Seria and Lutong. Although the loss of some of his force en route made the commander consider only landing in two places, he has decided to take all three, confident his troops can defeat any local opposition, as lutong is in any case close to Miri.
Dutch reconnaissance aircraft from Singkawang, Borneo, continue to make reconnaissance flights over the Japanese invasion fleet. Despite a lack of torpedoes, a Dutch Dornier Do-24 bombs and sinks Japanese destroyer HIJMS Shinonome off Miri, Borneo. Meanwhile RAF Beaufighters are preparing to make a strike on the ships; they flew from Singapore before dawn, and refuelled at Kuching airfield. They then flew north, to be joined by a squadron of Dutch Buffaloes, to make a strike on the ships. The first group of ships was sighted off Miri, and the first 12 Beaufighters were happy to find them not only anchored and busy unloading, but with no fighter cover. Opposed only by the AA from the ships, they placed their torpedoes carefully, leaving three of the five ships sinking, and two more damaged. They then carried on to Seria, where they found the remaining three transport ships. Although they only had four torpedoes left, they sank one of the three and damaged a second, They and the fighters then strafed the remaining ship, leaving it on fire (although the crew managed to put this out and save the ship). Apparently the Japanese had not expected any opposition to the landings apart from on land, and after the heavy losses in aircraft they had sustained recently had desided that this force did not need air cover. One Beaufighter had been damaged by AA, and made a forced landing at Kutching; a second was lost when it landed badly at Kutching.

The Japanese landings had gone quite successfully until the arrival of the Beaufighters, and they had landed their troops, although supplies would now be a problem. After the events in Malaya and Thailand, the commanders had decided that no matter what reassurances they got from the IJN they would get their troops at least off the ships and onto land as fast as possible.

While the warning given to the local defenders allowed them to resist the landings, they were heavily outnumbered (even with the losses the Japanese had suffered to the submarine attack), and by noon the Japanese were in possession of the town of Miri.
There has been considerable discussion on whether there is any serious chance of holding Borneo if the Japanese invade. It would be helpful to deny them a base so close to Singapore, and the oil in the area, but it might mean writing off any troops sent. The Dutch are reluctant to commit more men as they expect to be fighting for the DEI once the Japanese have finished in the Philippines. After secret talks with the Australians, it was decided to send about 1,500 men from the reserve 8th Division, and about the same number of Ghurkas from Malaya. For political reasons, an Australian commander is named. The force from Malaya sailed today, having been prepared once the Japanese invasion fleet was detected, and the Australians will hopefully leave today or tomorrow. It is still being decided where the best place to land them will be.

Air support is a problem; the heavy air fighting in Malaya has depleted the RAF and RAAF force, and replacement planes have not yet arrived. On the positive side, the RN has butchered the long range bomber force, and the Dutch promise fighter support to both defend the force and aid with ground attacks. Admiral Somerville is unsure just what Japanese naval support will be give, but a light striking force of 3 cruisers and 4 destroyers is held at Singapore for the time being. Any operations will be close to the Borneo coast, so he expects land-based fighter support to be acceptable.

[Peg Leg Pom]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Thanks for the map, makes it very clear that if Somerville gets the commandos he wants the Japanese can forget running supplies on that railway.

You know the French have a submarine that would be ideal for buggering up that railway line. The Surcouf with her twin 8 inch guns would do the job quite well. No need to risk a landing.

[Peg Leg Pom]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

While Britain technically has the resources to do a major landing in SE Asia, i practice its politically impossible due to the need to attack in the Med.

What Somerville and his planners are thinking of is large scale commando raids, landings to secure say a port for later use, small-medium scale things. That he can probably get the necessary landing craft and Commandoes for.

And yes, that railway line does look soooo tempting...

If he needs them badly enough he can have them built locally all he needs are the plans and some engines, and isn't it fortunate that the RAF and NEI airforce have quite a few thoroughly obsolete aircraft with engines that can be donated to the cause.

[Garrison]

So thankfully the US has reinforced the Wake force with Enterprise and a major engagement seems imminent.
Yet more Japanese transports lost, how long before they realize the problems all these losses will cause? I mean they seemed fairly disinterested in mere logistics so I suspect it won't be until one of their forces just winds up being overrun for lack of ammo/supplies.

[Alratan]

Here we see a real failure of the Allies. If they'd hit the Japanese before the troops had been unloaded they'd be in a very substantially stronger position. I would hope that this is followed up by some serious soul searching on the part of the commanders - they can't afford even the mistake they just made, let alone to repeat it.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Alratan

Here we see a real failure of the Allies. If they'd hit the Japanese before the troops had been unloaded they'd be in a very substantially stronger position. I would hope that this is followed up by some serious soul searching on the part of the commanders - they can't afford even the mistake they just made, let alone to repeat it.

Well you can't have them doing everything right all the time, and honestly did they really have a chance to catch them at sea?

[Paulo the Limey]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

No, he did the correct thing.
geometry measn that at best he can get the battlecruiser and one heavy cruiser (the other will be masked).

Towing something that size means the ship separation is such it needs two separate attacks. So he cant get then both in one salvo unless he gets some luck.
Noone yet realses how poor Japanese AS is, and until they do the correct thing is to toast the priority target, and maybe he'll get a chance at a cruiser if he's lucky.

Fair enough, that (and the other comments) makes sense. Nice to see in the latest updates that the subs have busy indeed.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

You know the French have a submarine that would be ideal for buggering up that railway line. The Surcouf with her twin 8 inch guns would do the job quite well. No need to risk a landing.

It would be nice to see the Surcouf get a better fate than "run down by a freighter".

[Astrodragon]

Its actually quite difficult to get recon over northen Borneo, its a long way from Singapore! And as the war only just started, its unrealistic to expect efficient working between the Dutch and British.

Its probable that one of the components of the buildup would have been some more men in Borneo (if only to force the japanese to commit a major effort), but remember that the buildup was continuing on Dec 7th, its not complete. There were also political issues; much of Borneo is Dutch, troops were likely to be Australian, and so on. The Allies are going to go on making mistakes - while they are doing better than OTL (granted, this isnt difficult..), they could actually have done a lot better. But at least their initial plans have held up well enough to give them a breathing space, thats what they didnt get in OTL.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Landshark

It would be nice to see the Surcouf get a better fate than "run down by a freighter".

Exactly how far is this railway from the coast anyway...??