The Whale has Wings

[FlyingDutchman]

I've been trying to catch up on this amazing TL for several weeks. I hadn't posted untill now, but that was partly because of catching up. Please keep up the good work. Thanks for posting it!

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

That would be very bad for any submarine attacking at night if there are any patrol aircraft in the area. A nice big sign saying (insert derogatory name for enemy leader) woz 'ere.

I don't think that's really much of an issue.

At night there won't be any patrol aircraft around likely.
Also - OTL atleast - it was common for submarines to make surface torpedo attacks at night untill quite late in the war, even against escorted convoys. If a submarine is willing enough to make a surface attack, the possible visibility of a torpedo trail is irrelevant I'd think, as it's also probably too late for any ship to do antything about it if they can see the wake.

Lastly, the Long Lance was strictly surface carried torpedo only AFAIK. It didn't fit in submarine torpedo tubes, at least untill the modified Type 95 torpedo version.

[Astrodragon]

Actually if we go by OTL, WE know the Japanese have already lost.
But from their viewpoint (especialy when their AAR is a bit, well optimistic (a favorite of the Japanese), things dont look nearly so bad. A few minor ajustments, to be espected when fighting a war, will make everything right again....

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by FlyingDutchman

I've been trying to catch up on this amazing TL for several weeks. I hadn't posted untill now, but that was partly because of catching up. Please keep up the good work. Thanks for posting it!



I don't think that's really much of an issue.

At night there won't be any patrol aircraft around likely.
Also - OTL atleast - it was common for submarines to make surface torpedo attacks at night untill quite late in the war, even against escorted convoys. If a submarine is willing enough to make a surface attack, the possible visibility of a torpedo trail is irrelevant I'd think, as it's also probably too late for any ship to do antything about it if they can see the wake.

Lastly, the Long Lance was strictly surface carried torpedo only AFAIK. It didn't fit in submarine torpedo tubes, at least untill the modified Type 95 torpedo version.

All true, although the Japanese sub torpedo was quite a nasty beast too.

On surface attacks at night, quite true they were common in the Pacific till the end of the war, BUT no-one in theatre had ASV radar...

The shiny new Spearfish has centimetric ASV radaar built in (its why its so heavy, and will be in much shorter supply than Somerville would like). Its also likely that in the not-too distant future some Wellingtons or Stirlings will arrive. At that point any Japanese sub on the surface at night is in for a nasty shock.

[FlyingDutchman]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

All true, although the Japanese sub torpedo was quite a nasty beast too.

On surface attacks at night, quite true they were common in the Pacific till the end of the war, BUT no-one in theatre had ASV radar...

The shiny new Spearfish has centimetric ASV radaar built in (its why its so heavy, and will be in much shorter supply than Somerville would like). Its also likely that in the not-too distant future some Wellingtons or Stirlings will arrive. At that point any Japanese sub on the surface at night is in for a nasty shock.

I understand. That's why I mentioned OTL. Surfaced Axis submarines - attacking or not - will be extinct before long in your timeline.
Thanks for the reply.

[perfectgeneral]

Something like this? Lots of crows nests for the light AA guns and a silly number of 4x/8x 40mm gun points?

[Hyperion]

So Melbourne is damaged, Prince of Wales is heavily damaged but can probably survive, albeit with six months in drydock needed.

HMS Ceres is lost, along with a single destroyer and a number of planes.

In return, the Japanese have lost the light carriers Zuiho and Hosho, the battleship Kongo, The cruisers Kumano, Atago, and Takao, along with two destroyers, while the battleship Haruna and cruiser Mikuma have been damaged and need time in drydock.

On top of that, Japanese naval air power in the region is gutted for a time.

[Peg Leg Pom]

When Melbourne and Prince of Wales limp into Singapore I would imagin thaat Melbourne would be taken straight into the dry dock and be given a quick patch up before been sent to Ceylon for a more thorough repair. Prince of Wales will then be dry docked and due to the extent of the damage will be there for some weeks. A decision will then have to be made as to whether to complete the repairs in Singapore or send her on to a dockyard that is safe from enemy attack. A lot will depend on how far down the Malay peninsular the Japanese get. As things stand now it should be safe from invasion but things may change, it would be prudent to have plans drawn up to destroy Prince of Wales just incase things go pear shaped. Still her big guns would come in handy if the Japanese did reach Jahore.

[LegionoftheUnitedStates]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Well the other issue is how realistically will they assess the damage they've done to the RN? If they convince themselves they actually sank a light carrier and damaged or sank a fleet carrier plus maybe a battleship and some cruisers(after the nights surface action is over) then they may feel that they can afford to divide the KB. Even if they don't sending all six carriers probably means the attack on the DEI goes ahead, which given the extra aircraft and armour deployed there will be yet another headache, not to mention those loitering RN and Dutch subs that we haven't heard a lot from recently...

The IJN is going to get a rude surprise when their spy network in Singapore reports several supposedly sunk Royal Navy ships arriving damaged, but intact, at the naval base...

[LegionoftheUnitedStates]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Battle of the South China Sea (part 5)

As it was, neither cruiser was able to do more than land a few shell hits on the French ship, only one of which did any really serious damage - the ships wine storage room was wrecked!

I'm pretty sure that the French will regard this as a War Crime...

[LegionoftheUnitedStates]

Originally Posted by stevep

usertron2020

...especially if they get supporting info from code-breakers.

Steve

The problem is in December 1941, the Allies haven't broken the naval code yet. Prior to Pearl Harbor, the emphasis was on the diplomatic codes. In OTL the Naval code didn't get the undivided attention it needed until after Pearl Harbor. Nothing has happened ITTL to change that fact as far as I can tell. So until February or March of 1942, the Allies are not reading Japanese Naval Codes effectively.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by LegionoftheUnitedStates

The problem is in December 1941, the Allies haven't broken the naval code yet. Prior to Pearl Harbor, the emphasis was on the diplomatic codes. In OTL the Naval code didn't get the undivided attention it needed until after Pearl Harbor. Nothing has happened ITTL to change that fact as far as I can tell. So until February or March of 1942, the Allies are not reading Japanese Naval Codes effectively.

LegionoftheUnitedStates

OK, damn. That makes things more difficult. Someone is going to make a decision on Wake, or rather two someone's, one on each side and its going to depend on luck as well as judgement and ability as to what happens.

Steve

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

When Melbourne and Prince of Wales limp into Singapore I would imagin thaat Melbourne would be taken straight into the dry dock and be given a quick patch up before been sent to Ceylon for a more thorough repair. Prince of Wales will then be dry docked and due to the extent of the damage will be there for some weeks. A decision will then have to be made as to whether to complete the repairs in Singapore or send her on to a dockyard that is safe from enemy attack. A lot will depend on how far down the Malay peninsular the Japanese get. As things stand now it should be safe from invasion but things may change, it would be prudent to have plans drawn up to destroy Prince of Wales just incase things go pear shaped. Still her big guns would come in handy if the Japanese did reach Jahore.

Yes, pretty much.
PoW will need to be patched and drained before she can be sent to Durban for a proper fix - the floating dock at Trincomalee will be full of Australian Carrier

Now all the Japanese navy has to do is go begging to the army to sink the ship for them....

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by LegionoftheUnitedStates

The problem is in December 1941, the Allies haven't broken the naval code yet. Prior to Pearl Harbor, the emphasis was on the diplomatic codes. In OTL the Naval code didn't get the undivided attention it needed until after Pearl Harbor. Nothing has happened ITTL to change that fact as far as I can tell. So until February or March of 1942, the Allies are not reading Japanese Naval Codes effectively.

Correct, there is nothing to make them change this - and it ws the right decision, the diplo codes were most important before war. And Ultra is busy on the U-boat code in particular. The Italian naval codes are, well, less important...

[MattII]

Actually, most of the reason why they hadn't broken it was because they hadn't got the material to work with. The use of JN-25 was limited before the war when couriers were safer, and not too inconvenient. The code was modified heavily as well several times which didn't help.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by LegionoftheUnitedStates

The IJN is going to get a rude surprise when their spy network in Singapore reports several supposedly sunk Royal Navy ships arriving damaged, but intact, at the naval base...

So it comes down to whether they choose to believe the spies or the pilots, easier maybe for them to conclude the spy network has been compromised than accept the sheer onesideness of the battle? I know logic and reason says they should take the spy reports seriously but there are plenty of examples of senior commanders on both sides ignoring inconvenient facts in their planning.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by MattII

Actually, most of the reason why they hadn't broken it was because they hadn't got the material to work with. The use of JN-25 was limited before the war when couriers were safer, and not too inconvenient. The code was modified heavily as well several times which didn't help.

Shame they won't be getting a lot of transmissions from the South China Sea to work with.

[Gannt the chartist]

All is not lost for Richelieu, 2nd Sea Lord Regulations do provide for a Fine Wine Officer in RN wardrooms, possibly not at sea but if they can survive to Singapore....

[MattII]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Shame they won't be getting a lot of transmissions from the South China Sea to work with.

Not at the moment, should be getting plenty running between Japan and SEA though, especially once word gets out that the RN just whacked a couple of light carriers and shredded the invasion force.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by MattII

Not at the moment, should be getting plenty running between Japan and SEA though, especially once word gets out that the RN just whacked a couple of light carriers and shredded the invasion force.

They should probably focus on looking for recurring Japanese profanity. I'm wondering if given the timing, especially how long it might take to get the damaged ships to Singapore, the Japanese will kick of the invasion of the DEI on schedule; still taking the pilot reports at face value and erroneously assuming that the British have no means to intervene.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Shame they won't be getting a lot of transmissions from the South China Sea to work with.

I dont think fish use the Naval Code....