WI Dutch was far closer to German?

TheNordicBrit · Dec 21, 2011

Hey Guys,

What if the Dutch Language, already a Germanic language, was actually far closer to German than it already is. As it is I believe many Dutch speaking people can read understand some German and vice versa due to the closeness of their languages. However it's speech that truly shows the difference between the two.

WI the difference between Dutch and German was more like the relationship between Austrian and German, a much closer relationship though still with some minor differences.

How would this be possible? How would this affect the development of the Low Countries over time? I know it would likely have huge consequences but I'd be interested in even minor changes.

Sumeragi · Dec 21, 2011

Keep the Netherlands within the Holy Roman Empire, and out of Burgundy's hands.

Delvestius · Dec 21, 2011

For all intents and purposes, the official German in Germany is the same official German in Austria, it's the regional dialects that differ.

If the Netherlands were German speakers, then I would think the Prussians would vie to include them into the German Nation. This would include Belgium, perhaps they'd petition the north half to Germany whilst giving control of the Walloons to France to prevent ethno-linguistic civil war.

This would change the world war era significantly... With no neutral "buffer" countries, France would be even more paranoid during the late nineteenth-early twentieth centuries. In World War one, Britain would need a better excuse to declare war on Germany. In World War two, Blitzkrieg against France would be even more devastating... Although Germany along their north border may convince them to expand the Maginot line all the way to the Channel.

Marja · Dec 21, 2011

Isn't the majority language Low German? With a minority speaking Frisian? And both languages being spoken on both sides of the border?

So if the standard literary language in the Germanies was Low German, instead of tending towards Middle and High German, then it would probably be counted as German, and the Swiss, Swabian, and Austrian dialects would be counted as a closely-related language.

SavoyTruffle · Dec 21, 2011

Delvestius said:
For all intents and purposes, the official German in Germany is the same official German in Austria, it's the regional dialects that differ.

If the Netherlands were German speakers, then I would think the Prussians would vie to include them into the German Nation. This would include Belgium, perhaps they'd petition the north half to Germany whilst giving control of the Walloons to France to prevent ethno-linguistic civil war.

This would change the world war era significantly... With no neutral "buffer" countries, France would be even more paranoid during the late nineteenth-early twentieth centuries. In World War one, Britain would need a better excuse to declare war on Germany. In World War two, Blitzkrieg against France would be even more devastating... Although Germany along their north border may convince them to expand the Maginot line all the way to the Channel.

With the PODs necessary to prevent a distinct Dutch identity from emerging the world wars will certainly be butterflied away.

Delvestius · Dec 21, 2011

SavoyTruffle said:
With the PODs necessary to prevent a distinct Dutch identity from emerging the world wars will certainly be butterflied away.

Not necessarily... They may not happen as they did in OTL, but world wars with significant casualties are pretty hard to avoid completely after spikes in nationalism and imperialism caused by Industrialization... A Germany with control of the low countries could in fact speed the process up.

SavoyTruffle · Dec 21, 2011

Delvestius said:
Not necessarily... They may not happen as they did in OTL, but world wars with significant casualties are pretty hard to avoid completely after spikes in nationalism and imperialism caused by Industrialization... A Germany with control of the low countries could in fact speed the process up.

Wasn't Nationalism inspired more by the French Revolution and the shift of power to the bourgeoisie?

Delvestius · Dec 21, 2011

SavoyTruffle said:
Wasn't Nationalism inspired more by the French Revolution and the shift of power to the bourgeoisie?

The french Revolution is where it was born, and it caused much unrest during the nineteenth century. But Industrialization caused the explosive growth in military size and technology, which was the foremost proponent of nationalism in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, a primary cause of World War one. You may have heard of "Jingoism"?

As for the shift of power to the bourgeoisie: Again, this process may of been the cause of the revolutionary era, but it is during the second industrial revolution where this idea truly became the reality, thanks to the technology that allowed it to do so.

Photovoltaic Array · Dec 22, 2011

Linguistically it's hard to see in a sense -- a lot of continental West Germanic areas have dialects distinct enough to be practical languages in their own right. Switzerland's Alemannic is famously distinct from standard German and OTL Germany does have Low German/Low Saxon in its own borders as a definite distinct language. Having Dutch/Low Franconian is just something else added to the mix.

Even a more blatantly German-based Dutch language/Germanized Netherlands might still allow for its independence -- it was a rich trading and industrial area on its own, not to mention faced religious divisions in the past like Germany did (witness Catholic Flanders and the southern Netherlands to this day, and OTL this part of the reason Bismarck was leery of including Austria into united Germany), although admittedly it was still mostly protestant. Anyway, a Netherlands seen as one of the Germanies wouldn't change much, I don't think. The biggest deal would be if Germany got them in unification (but they might not, they didn't get Switzerland or Austria in) and I think if history ran its course per OTL that Germany would still be defeated in the world wars. I can even see the Netherlands split off Germany yet again following the ATL WWII. (Again, it happened with Austria.)

Obviously butterflies can do anything, of course, but given Germany's motivations OTL I don't think it will change much of anything.

BlondieBC · Dec 22, 2011

Photovoltaic Array said:
Linguistically it's hard to see in a sense -- a lot of continental West Germanic areas have dialects distinct enough to be practical languages in their own right. Switzerland's Alemannic is famously distinct from standard German and OTL Germany does have Low German/Low Saxon in its own borders as a definite distinct language. Having Dutch/Low Franconian is just something else added to the mix.

Even a more blatantly German-based Dutch language/Germanized Netherlands might still allow for its independence -- it was a rich trading and industrial area on its own, not to mention faced religious divisions in the past like Germany did (witness Catholic Flanders and the southern Netherlands to this day, and OTL this part of the reason Bismarck was leery of including Austria into united Germany), although admittedly it was still mostly protestant. Anyway, a Netherlands seen as one of the Germanies wouldn't change much, I don't think. The biggest deal would be if Germany got them in unification (but they might not, they didn't get Switzerland or Austria in) and I think if history ran its course per OTL that Germany would still be defeated in the world wars. I can even see the Netherlands split off Germany yet again following the ATL WWII. (Again, it happened with Austria.)

Obviously butterflies can do anything, of course, but given Germany's motivations OTL I don't think it will change much of anything.

Too many butterflies to be realistic, but lets say the Dutch view themselves as Germans ,and therefore are in the CP. All this is stronger if formally a part of Germany.

1) Germany does not need to find a "Place in the Sun". All it has to do is encourage immigration to the Dutch Colonies. Likely no Morocco crisis. There are a few million German immigrants in the DEI by 1910. Even after there is decolonization, there could still be a German speaking country in what is now Indonesia.

2) The four big powers in the far east are America, UK, Germany, Britain. If Britain is allied to Japan as in OTL, the USA being pro CP is likely. Likewise, if Britain and USA team up, then German-Japan Alliance. In the latter case, we have three big alliance blocks. Anglo-USA, Entente, CP.

3) All the Belgium is neutral stuff is different. Belgium is now critical nation Germany plans to get around British Blockade. France is more likely to violate Belgium than Germany. Also, if German Navy is stationed in Netherlands, is Belgium Neutrality still vital to UK?

4) France's national pride was hurt by A-L. If German split Belgium along language lines and Germany gives up a token amount of A-L that speaks french, there is a face saving solution to the problems where both sides can say they won. I can even see Operation Sealion, by the French and German Navy. I can also see a possibility of when the three emperors league breaking up, France joining the CP. France give some/all in A-L, parts of Italy. A-H is conceded the entire Balkens and Venice, German gets some/all of Belgium. All cemented by a major war.

Even if we get to WW1, and the new Dutch/German federation does invade Belgium, the war looks different. It is about 3 extra corp likely active and maybe 2 full armies once mobilized. The German invasion of France goes much, much better.

I believe the Netherlands speaking German and viewing themselves as Germanic massively changes world history. It is not as a profound change as the USA speaking/viewing themselves German or Brazil speaking/themselves German, but it is huge.

pompejus · Dec 22, 2011

BlondieBC said:
Too many butterflies to be realistic, but lets say the Dutch view themselves as Germans ,and therefore are in the CP. All this is stronger if formally a part of Germany.

1) Germany does not need to find a "Place in the Sun". All it has to do is encourage immigration to the Dutch Colonies. Likely no Morocco crisis. There are a few million German immigrants in the DEI by 1910. Even after there is decolonization, there could still be a German speaking country in what is now Indonesia.

2) The four big powers in the far east are America, UK, Germany, Britain. If Britain is allied to Japan as in OTL, the USA being pro CP is likely. Likewise, if Britain and USA team up, then German-Japan Alliance. In the latter case, we have three big alliance blocks. Anglo-USA, Entente, CP.

3) All the Belgium is neutral stuff is different. Belgium is now critical nation Germany plans to get around British Blockade. France is more likely to violate Belgium than Germany. Also, if German Navy is stationed in Netherlands, is Belgium Neutrality still vital to UK?

4) France's national pride was hurt by A-L. If German split Belgium along language lines and Germany gives up a token amount of A-L that speaks french, there is a face saving solution to the problems where both sides can say they won. I can even see Operation Sealion, by the French and German Navy. I can also see a possibility of when the three emperors league breaking up, France joining the CP. France give some/all in A-L, parts of Italy. A-H is conceded the entire Balkens and Venice, German gets some/all of Belgium. All cemented by a major war.

Even if we get to WW1, and the new Dutch/German federation does invade Belgium, the war looks different. It is about 3 extra corp likely active and maybe 2 full armies once mobilized. The German invasion of France goes much, much better.

I believe the Netherlands speaking German and viewing themselves as Germanic massively changes world history. It is not as a profound change as the USA speaking/viewing themselves German or Brazil speaking/themselves German, but it is huge.

Ehm, at which point you think the POD must be? In this case it would be at least around the 1600's for Dutch to consider themselves German, probably earlier. As long as the Netherlands fights for its independence against Spain, it won't become German. The Dutch dialect will differ from the German language, unless the German language becomes closer to the Dutch language (for example using Low German as the dialect from which German is derived). Basicly if you want a German Netherlands, things like Belgium and Dutch colonies will be butterflied away. The Netherlands must not be allowed to create its own identity. For that you either have to avoid unification, or make it part of another, stronger country, like Spain or Austria.

BlondieBC · Dec 22, 2011

Photovoltaic Array said:
Even a more blatantly German-based Dutch language/Germanized Netherlands might still allow for its independence -- it was a rich trading and industrial area on its own, not to mention faced religious divisions in the past like Germany did (witness Catholic Flanders and the southern Netherlands to this day, and OTL this part of the reason Bismarck was leery of including Austria into united Germany), although admittedly it was still mostly protestant. Anyway, a Netherlands seen as one of the Germanies wouldn't change much, I don't think. The biggest deal would be if Germany got them in unification (but they might not, they didn't get Switzerland or Austria in) and I think if history ran its course per OTL that Germany would still be defeated in the world wars. I can even see the Netherlands split off Germany yet again following the ATL WWII. (Again, it happened with Austria.)

Obviously butterflies can do anything, of course, but given Germany's motivations OTL I don't think it will change much of anything.

BlondieBC said:
Too many butterflies to be realistic, but lets say the Dutch view themselves as Germans ,and therefore are in the CP. All this is stronger if formally a part of Germany.

....

I believe the Netherlands speaking German and viewing themselves as Germanic massively changes world history. It is not as a profound change as the USA speaking/viewing themselves German or Brazil speaking/themselves German, but it is huge.

pompejus said:
Ehm, at which point you think the POD must be? In this case it would be at least around the 1600's for Dutch to consider themselves German, probably earlier. As long as the Netherlands fights for its independence against Spain, it won't become German. The Dutch dialect will differ from the German language, unless the German language becomes closer to the Dutch language (for example using Low German as the dialect from which German is derived). Basicly if you want a German Netherlands, things like Belgium and Dutch colonies will be butterflied away. The Netherlands must not be allowed to create its own identity. For that you either have to avoid unification, or make it part of another, stronger country, like Spain or Austria.

That is why there is too many butterflies part of my quote. I am saying that taking the other posters assumptions that somehow WW1 still happen, Bismark is relevant, and the world maps looks anywhere near the same, then the Dutch thinking of themselves as German and speaking German is hugely relevant. And if the Germans view the "Dutch" as Germans, then most of the German immigrants will go to "German" colonies, just as "most" of the English went to English controlled colonies.

IMO, the POD for the two languages to be the same has to be pre Louis the Pious, and any discussion of post crusades events is ASB. Within a few generations of the POD, the map of Europe looks much different. And within a few centuries, it will be unrecognizable. I believe the original quoted poster greatly underestimated the changed cause by adopting another language.

If Brazil switched to German as the official language at independence, and the population switched to speaking German, and therefore, the population thinks of itself as "Germanic", the world looks nothing like it does today, much less after a thousand years of butterflies.

Janprimus · Dec 22, 2011

pompejus said:
Ehm, at which point you think the POD must be? In this case it would be at least around the 1600's for Dutch to consider themselves German, probably earlier. As long as the Netherlands fights for its independence against Spain, it won't become German. The Dutch dialect will differ from the German language, unless the German language becomes closer to the Dutch language (for example using Low German as the dialect from which German is derived). Basicly if you want a German Netherlands, things like Belgium and Dutch colonies will be butterflied away. The Netherlands must not be allowed to create its own identity. For that you either have to avoid unification, or make it part of another, stronger country, like Spain or Austria.

I agree, keeping the dialects close enough to German, probably requires preventing the Burgundian era. However even before that, Flanders, Brabant and Holland were pretty wealthy, so maybe a somewhat greater influence of these regions on an ATL German.
Low German depends on the definition, the broadest definition did include Low Franconian/Frankish. However a more Low German German could have effects on the High German speaking parts.

Regarding your suggested stronger countries, since Austria is German speaking, Austria would probably be better at 'keeping' the Low Countries speak ATL German than Spain; whereas in Spain they obviously speak Spanish and have much less to win, if they want to keep the Low Countries speaking 'ATL German'.

Gonzaga · Dec 22, 2011

Just an idea: if during the Reformation the Dutch had followed Lutheranism rather than Calvinism would it increase their own sense of "Germanness"?

pompejus · Dec 22, 2011

Gonzaga said:
Just an idea: if during the Reformation the Dutch had followed Lutheranism rather than Calvinism would it increase their own sense of "Germanness"?

No, I don;t think it is important enough. I think the bible would still be translated into the local dialect. I think the Dutch would still form their own identity. Actually i don't even think that if the Dutch would end up speaking German that would make them German. The Swiss speak German* and they formed their own identity, even before the Dutch did. The only way for the Dutch to remain German is to remain closely connected to the rest of Germany, to avoid them forming their own identity. If that happens the Dutch could end up speaking German and becoming German (assuming Germany still forms, which in my opinion is far from certain).

To be fair a Lutheran Netherlands is an interesting idea. Looking at the religious history of the Netherlands, a different religion would change the Netherlands in various interesting ways. No idea how tomake the Netherlands Lutheran without too many butterflies occurring.

*well the German speaking Swiss speak German

HJ Tulp · Dec 22, 2011

I've got a nice little book which has two scenarios: A larger Netherlands (including the Ruhr-area) and a Netherlands that is part of Germany. The PoD for the last scenario was Willem van Oranje surviving the assasination attempt by Balthezar Gerards and thus becomming Duke of Holland and Zeeland. He ends up in total control of the rest of what would have become the Republic and thus the Netherlands become like any other nation ruled by a monarch. Dynastic troubles cause the country to be inherited by the King of Prussia and voila: the Netherlands are German.

Sumeragi · Dec 22, 2011

pompejus said:
No, I don;t think it is important enough. I think the bible would still be translated into the local dialect. I think the Dutch would still form their own identity. Actually i don't even think that if the Dutch would end up speaking German that would make them German. The Swiss speak German* and they formed their own identity, even before the Dutch did. The only way for the Dutch to remain German is to remain closely connected to the rest of Germany, to avoid them forming their own identity. If that happens the Dutch could end up speaking German and becoming German (assuming Germany still forms, which in my opinion is far from certain).

To be fair a Lutheran Netherlands is an interesting idea. Looking at the religious history of the Netherlands, a different religion would change the Netherlands in various interesting ways. No idea how tomake the Netherlands Lutheran without too many butterflies occurring.

*well the German speaking Swiss speak German

Actually, about that. Supposedly, literary German deviates based on how the Bible was translated. Max Weber mentions that in passing in Economy and Society, Chapter X Domination and Legitimacy, Part 1 Domination by Economic Power and by Authority. Something about how whether the Bible was translated by the Imperial Church had effect on the dominance of High German or something like that. Check it out if you can.

Photovoltaic Array · Dec 22, 2011

BlondieBC said:
That is why there is too many butterflies part of my quote. I am saying that taking the other posters assumptions that somehow WW1 still happen, Bismark is relevant, and the world maps looks anywhere near the same, then the Dutch thinking of themselves as German and speaking German is hugely relevant. And if the Germans view the "Dutch" as Germans, then most of the German immigrants will go to "German" colonies, just as "most" of the English went to English controlled colonies.

IMO, the POD for the two languages to be the same has to be pre Louis the Pious, and any discussion of post crusades events is ASB. Within a few generations of the POD, the map of Europe looks much different. And within a few centuries, it will be unrecognizable. I believe the original quoted poster greatly underestimated the changed cause by adopting another language.

If Brazil switched to German as the official language at independence, and the population switched to speaking German, and therefore, the population thinks of itself as "Germanic", the world looks nothing like it does today, much less after a thousand years of butterflies.

I actually didn't think about Indonesia and (maybe?) the Congo in a split Belgium. Those were arguably the two most prosperous colonies in the world due to their respective luxury and mineral resources and it's extremely hard to see this greater Germany still unsatiated after that.

A German-speaking Indonesia is also very plausible with this setting: if you have them conceding the French parts of Wallonia and Alsace-Lorraine then it allows a far more stable Europe and probably will allow higher birthrates (and hence migrants) and colonial development if the civilizational-and-empire shattering world wars are prevented.

Sumeragi said:
Actually, about that. Supposedly, literary German deviates based on how the Bible was translated. Max Weber mentions that in passing in Economy and Society, Chapter X Domination and Legitimacy, Part 1 Domination by Economic Power and by Authority. Something about how whether the Bible was translated by the Imperial Church had effect on the dominance of High German or something like that. Check it out if you can.

I heard something similar: East Central German became the standard for German due to Martin Luther's translation of the bible. Luther came from the Electorate of Saxony.

Theodoric · Dec 22, 2011

Janprimus said:
Low German depends on the definition, the broadest definition did include Low Franconian/Frankish.
.

Low German is Saxon, which is Ingvaeonic (like Frisian and English), while Hochdeutsch is Irmionic and Dutch is Istvaeonic, and these seperations have existed even before the Roman Empire fell.
I know Germans love to say any any continental Western Germanic languages that isn't Hochdeutsch 'Niederdeutsch' or whatever, but that's just egocentrism on their part.

Now, if say, the Thuringii and Allamanni were to invade the Low Countries and settled there as well, while the Franks didn't just replace the upper class but also migrated most of their population to Gaul, you'd have a Lower Rhineland that speaks a language quite similar to their eastern neighbours, as well as a more Germanic France. Ofcourse, after that, with the Franks kicked out, the history of Germany and the Low Countries would be completely different, though probably a lot more connected than OTL.

However, if by some stroke of Fortune, some errant mass-migration or just a couple of very succesful German troubadours, the Dutch simply spoke a language closer to German, You would have greater chances of the people in the low countries considering themselves German, though who knows, they might end up like Luxembourg. It's all a matter of politics; same with Austria. Having the daughter of the Duke of Brabant marry a son of the Duke of Brunswick might be enough to further cement ties.

Lost the game · Dec 22, 2011

Delvestius said:
The french Revolution is where it was born, and it caused much unrest during the nineteenth century. But Industrialization caused the explosive growth in military size and technology, which was the foremost proponent of nationalism in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, a primary cause of World War one. You may have heard of "Jingoism"?

As for the shift of power to the bourgeoisie: Again, this process may of been the cause of the revolutionary era, but it is during the second industrial revolution where this idea truly became the reality, thanks to the technology that allowed it to do so.

Isn't liberalism and republicanism more of a cause of nationalism than anything else? You notice that people in autocratic states, like Tsarist and later Soviet Russia, were indifferent to foreign occupiers, while citizens of republics or constitutional monarchies were extremely hostile, if only in sentiment and not action. That's because of what philosophers like Locke and Rosseau pointed out in the Enlightenment: the degree to which a people are attached to their national identity is based on how they can influence the direction of their nation, and that the people, if not allowed any influence in their own government, would owe nothing to the government or governments of that nation.