Map Thread IX

[Ulster]

Originally Posted by RyuDrago

I wanted to experiment new kind of maps... This is a personal vision of the First French Empire after a century of existance. The POD is Napoleon winning at Leipzig and finally made peace with Britain, while Poland was sacrificed to the anti-French coalition; the Emperor then renounced to Italy in favor of Murat, allowed to his brother Jerome to unify the Rhine confederation in a Kingdom of Germany, and finally pacified Spain.

Finally stabilizing Europe, France constantly expanded for the next ninety years across the world...

I like the effect of showing only the French aligned areas, but there are quite a lot of convergent borders. Africa in particular is nearly identical to a map of OTL colonial Africa with different colours (for example Franco-Italian Sudan, or Dutch Congo)

[RyuDrago]

Originally Posted by Ulster LibDem

I like the effect of showing only the French aligned areas, but there are quite a lot of convergent borders. Africa in particular is nearly identical to a map of OTL colonial Africa with different colours (for example Franco-Italian Sudan, or Dutch Congo)

I expected this objection. For a side, it was wanted so because I wanted to focus to the development of this kind of map, and for another because I guessed here the First French Empire and its allies will get the OTL colonial gains plus something more...

The next map of this kind I have in mind will have less convergent borders...

[deathgod]

Originally Posted by RyuDrago

I expected this objection. For a side, it was wanted so because I wanted to focus to the development of this kind of map, and for another because I guessed here the First French Empire and its allies will get the OTL colonial gains plus something more...

The next map of this kind I have in mind will have less convergent borders...

The borders in Africa especially were rarely based on borders or landmarks existing at the time of your POD. Just look at the Sahara.

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by RyuDrago

My idea was that the French Empire intervened in the ACW beacuse of the US involvement in the Mexican war in favor of Juarez. .

That still sounds confusing: OTL the French only got involved in Mexico to the extent of putting a monarch in Mexico city because the US was too distracted with the civil war to raise much trouble in the first place: helping out the Confederates and making an eternal enemy of the US really wasn't on the agenda.

Bruce

[B_Munro]

Also, successfully cleaning up the "Spanish Ulcer" and keeping a loyal Napoleon on the Spanish throne for a century? I have me doots.

Bruce

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Dementor

Constantinople doesn't contain a magic switch that assimilates anyone who captures it into Romans. The Bulgarians would probably dominate the Empire and would likely have a majority, so no reason for them to lose their identity even if they claim to be a continuation of Rome.

Well, the Germans Emperors called their realm the "Holy Roman Empire", and they didn't even reside in Rome I suspect the Bulgarian Emperors will take on the title of Caesar. Residing in Constantinople, they may very well come to speak Greek as well, although whether it will ever become more than a prestige language (like French for the Russian nobility) is another question.

Bruce

[Pischinovski]

-1st Araldyan History
-2nd Journey though the Ancient Lands
-3rd Foederatio Araldyanae
-4th The House of Mancein
-5th Romarium
-6th The Kingdom of Narbone
-7th The Empire of Teitchland
-8th Seksen
-9th Basileia ton Romanion 1568
-10th The World 1568
-11th Christianity
-12th The World 1004-1568
-13th UPDATED 1907
-14th Mythologica
-15th Europe 395-600 (The Fall of Rome)
-16th Araldyana 1425
-17th Araldyana 1428
-18th Araldyana 1283
-19th Araldyana 1287-1302
-20th New Rome/Hellenica 1856
-21st The World 1856
-22nd Dynasties and Families of the Early Empire
-23rd Constantinian Britain
-24th Aelian Regency
-25th Caesariat: Avitus I.

The 3 Cities of the Romans (1566)

During the Migration Period Rome was sacked and burned down several times and also the Mddle Ages were hard for the "Eternal" City. Rome did not only suffer massacres and wars but also the Great Plague in the 13th century.
Around 1300 not even 5000 people were left on the area of the Seven Hills and the Campus Martius.
Many people migrated to Portus/Porto, the former harbour of Rome.
Porto survived the Migration Period much better than it's "mother city". It became during the Middle Ages one of the most important cities of Italy and southern Europe.
it becomes the cultural and political center of the region. The seat of the Patriarch and later Catholicos are moved to the city.
In the 12th century the Ostia is refounded under Romanian influence and becomes a Greek-dominated city, but also many Jews and other minorities settle down here. After Romania got nearly crushed by the Oghusians many christian refugees settle in Italy and especially in Ostia and Porto.
Around 1400 three main comunes exist near the ancient center of Rome: Teatro in and around the Colosseum, Marzio near the Campus Martius and Fluvia on both sides of the River Tiber.
1431 these 3 comunes founded the Civita de Roma. Porto not happy about that sent a few troops to show the new city, who is the "true" sucessor of Rome.
This caused the Roman Wars between 1431 and 1440. Under the threat of the Italian KIng preparing for a campaign against the independent states of north and middle Italy the conflict is solved (but not really to the delight of the Civitas de Roma):
-the city council of Porto is allowed to use the name SPQR
-NO city is allowed to be named Roma
-the cities form a defence alliance against all foreign powers

A Legend tells following story:
After the meeting with the people from Porto the delegation of the former three villages came home to their now namesless city. In rage over the end of the negotiations the Magister ordered to destroy all remains of ancient Rome.
As they wanted to destroy the rests of the Forum they found a gravestone: "Here lays Remus the Wolf's Son, killed by his brother Romulus."
So the city was named in honour of Remus because now Romulus was dead and Remus could live.

Remopolis, the City of Remus

The Shields of the cities show:
Remopolis: 3 colums (3 villages), 7 hills, the River Tiber and the number 2184 auc/1431AD
Ostia: a lion and a cross (symbols of Romania, but the cross is usual in another color)
Porto: flames and a cross (symbols of the Cities Patron, St. Polycarp)



PS this is not supposed to be correct italian ( i took some freedoms ; its over 1100 years after the POD so i guess also the languages are a bit altered)

[TurkishCapybara]

Originally Posted by Theodore Gladstone

The fact that the confederacy exists with all it's states having the exact same borders means more butterflies have fallen than soldiers at Shiloh. And that's the CSA alone.

Have they fallen faster than Zanzibar in the Anglo-Zanzibar War?

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Benkarnell

Since I don't see myself reading all 100 pages of that TL (I know, sorry, and I mean no disrespect)...

How did Germany get so wacky?

Go to Finished Timelines and Scenarios and read Dominion of Southern America Part III. That is MUCH shorter and will cover most of the events leading to that Germany.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Benkarnell

Mental preparing for this week's Flag Challenge: the Aegean in 1500.

Smyrna (the main focus of this map) has developed into a powerful maritime republic with a mixed population: the ruling class is a mix of Venetians, Genoese, Franco-Cypriot emigree nobles, and Hospitallers largely from France and Germany; while The People are a mix of Turks, Greeks, Jews, and a few Armenians. Chios, Lesbos, and the Dodecanese are Smyrnan vassal states.

Achaea is the strongest surviving Latin remnant, Smyrna excepted. Achaea, Candia, and Naxos together maintain a vague unity based on the memory of the Latin Empire, but really maintain their neutral status by playing the main trading powers (Bulgaria, Venice, and Smyrna) off one another.

Macedonia is basically a region of small statelets, but the Despot of Larissa has a kind of primacy and is known to western powers as the Prince. It won't be long before it's inevitably partitioned between Bulgaria and Serbia.

Lemnos and Salonica are vassal states of Bulgaria governed by Frankish nobles.

I'm all for wanking Bulgaria, but even I think that's excessive. Otherwise, nice. Are we assuming that Bulgaria is in communion with Rome here?

[worker]

Originally Posted by Tzapquiel

Some time ago, Iori made a really great population density world map (original post), but I thought that it would be even more useful with some additional subdivisions, so I made some slight alterations to the map (I hope that it was OK, if not please tell me so):



Actually, I wouldn't mind even more subdivisions, but Russia, China, India, Brazil, DR Congo, and Kazakhstan felt most urgent (imho); and UK and the Nordic countries only took a few minutes for me to do. But, should any one else feel like providing regional data for Mexico, Argentina, Iran, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, Ukraine, or pretty much any other country, feel free to add it to the map; that is, unless Iori disapproves...

And, in case I wasn't clear enough; this map was made by Iori, I only made some slight alterations.

Saved, great info, almost easy readable but colors are too simil, white-grey-orange-brown is too short to 12 nivels, you need end in Red. the 8 oranges look-all-the-same, need apples.

Done
Move your colors 8th-9th-10th-11th-12th to your10th-new9th-your12th-new11th-new12.
the Red is hard to see because is in Honk Kong, Monaco and place like that.
Now you can see the 3 levels in India and 2 levels in continental wester Europe easily.
Anyway, I do not believe in myself enough so I still saved your edition untouched.

Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lation_density
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_subdivisions

[False Dmitri]

Originally Posted by Wendell

I'm all for wanking Bulgaria, but even I think that's excessive. Otherwise, nice. Are we assuming that Bulgaria is in communion with Rome here?

The Bulgarian conquest of Latin Constantinople in 1500 made up the givens of this scenario, and I figured that a Latin Empire that lasted for 300 years had to have its institutions well enough in order not to crumble into dust as in OTL; so Bulgaria conquered the core part of the empire intact.

I had not been assuming that at all. If anything, this represents Bulgaria striking out against the Latin scourge and restoring true worship to the City.

[RyuDrago]

Originally Posted by Pischinovski

During the Migration Period Rome was sacked and burned down several times and also the Mddle Ages were hard for the "Eternal" City. Rome did not only suffer massacres and wars but also the Great Plague in the 13th century.
Around 1300 not even 5000 people were left on the area of the Seven Hills and the Campus Martius.
Many people migrated to Portus/Porto, the former harbour of Rome.
Porto survived the Migration Period much better than it's "mother city". It became during the Middle Ages one of the most important cities of Italy and southern Europe.
it becomes the cultural and political center of the region. The seat of the Patriarch and later Catholicos are moved to the city.
In the 12th century the Ostia is refounded under Romanian influence and becomes a Greek-dominated city, but also many Jews and other minorities settle down here. After Romania got nearly crushed by the Oghusians many christian refugees settle in Italy and especially in Ostia and Porto.
Around 1400 three main comunes exist near the ancient center of Rome: Teatro in and around the Colosseum, Marzio near the Campus Martius and Fluvia on both sides of the River Tiber.
1431 these 3 comunes founded the Civita de Roma. Porto not happy about that sent a few troops to show the new city, who is the "true" sucessor of Rome.
This caused the Roman Wars between 1431 and 1440. Under the threat of the Italian KIng preparing for a campaign against the independent states of north and middle Italy the conflict is solved (but not really to the delight of the Civitas de Roma):
-the city council of Porto is allowed to use the name SPQR
-NO city is allowed to be named Roma
-the cities form a defence alliance against all foreign powers

A Legend tells following story:
After the meeting with the people from Porto the delegation of the former three villages came home to their now namesless city. In rage over the end of the negotiations the Magister ordered to destroy all remains of ancient Rome.
As they wanted to destroy the rests of the Forum they found a gravestone: "Here lays Remus the Wolf's Son, killed by his brother Romulus."
So the city was named in honour of Remus because now Romulus was dead and Remus could live.

Remopolis, the City of Remus

The Shields of the cities show:
Remopolis: 3 colums (3 villages), 7 hills, the River Tiber and the number 2184 auc/1431AD
Ostia: a lion and a cross (symbols of Romania, but the cross is usual in another color)
Porto: flames and a cross (symbols of the Cities Patron, St. Polycarp)

PS this is not supposed to be correct italian ( i took some freedoms ; its over 1100 years after the POD so i guess also the languages are a bit altered)

I will be obvious, but I'm delighted by your maps, even if in this you made me really sad about the destiny of Rome .

I was guessing... Why the Remans (I think we could call the citizens of Remopolis in this mode, right?) didn't settle in more defensive positions such as the Palatine? Like the palace of Diocletianus which became the nucleus of Split, the Imperial complex could offer a suitable haven for the population. Looking to the map, it seemed you chose to organize the town in the space between the northern and southern hills, right?

Also, the shape of the churches made me thought... They are symbols in the map which marked the religious sites, or they are for real? I ask this because in the second case they seemed too large in proportion to the map... Also, which measns the term "SPQR" along one of the churches in Porto? I suppose it is the church of St. Policarp but I request more clearance, thanks.

[Pischinovski]

Originally Posted by RyuDrago

I will be obvious, but I'm delighted by your maps, even if in this you made me really sad about the destiny of Rome .

thank you dont be sad, rome will rise again, but this time as a coastal city

Originally Posted by RyuDrago

I was guessing... Why the Remans (I think we could call the citizens of Remopolis in this mode, right?) didn't settle in more defensive positions such as the Palatine? Like the palace of Diocletianus which became the nucleus of Split, the Imperial complex could offer a suitable haven for the population. Looking to the map, it seemed you chose to organize the town in the space between the northern and southern hills, right?

Teatro, Marzio and Fluvia were not the only settlements (and are still not the only ones). The Domus Flavia developed to the home of the sheperds of the Circus Maximus. This settlement, called Pecuro, became during the 13th century the refuge castle for the surrounding villages. The geography of the Palatin made it easy to defend this location.
the north side of the hill were included in the city wall of Remopolis during the 15th century.
Like smaller settlements and other castles is the Castro de Pecuro not shown on the map.
Ofcourse the military strategies changed and the population of Remopolis grew. So Pecuro is not very important for the defence of the city anymore but is still in use and develops to a second residence for rich Remans and also some Portians and Ostians have little houses here. The view from the castle to the south is famous. The permanent population is very low and Pecuro and Remopolis are separated by the Palatinian Park (also very pretty), that's why it isn't shown on the map as part of Remopolis.

Originally Posted by RyuDrago

Also, the shape of the churches made me thought... They are symbols in the map which marked the religious sites, or they are for real? I ask this because in the second case they seemed too large in proportion to the map... Also, which measns the term "SPQR" along one of the churches in Porto? I suppose it is the church of St. Policarp but I request more clearance, thanks.

The crosses show big churches. In this TL it is common to build churches as part of a larger structure. The church with the SPQR is the church of St. Polycarp/Boligarbo. The church forms the east side of the structure and stretch to the west. On the north and south side are market halls and in the west is the House of the City Council, which calls itself SPQR.
The other churches have also other structurs on it; the northern church (St. Giuserico) for example the fish and spice market and the headquarter of the harbour guard and the eastern church (St. Peter) is seat of the Patriarch of Rome.

here a "sketch" of St. Polycarp
---------_______________________
---------| Markethall---------|-----|
________| ________________|-----|__
|--------| |-----------Church--------|
|SPQR---| |________________-----__|
|_-----__|Markethall__-------|----|
--|___|-------------|_______|___|

[RyuDrago]

Here's a new map following this style, this time showing a surviving HRE-Burgundian dominated and BE in late 19th century. The PODs are many and the butterflies fly high, but essentially were a failed fourth crusade (with Venetian defeat against the Byzantines), a France defeated in the 100YW, different marriage policies which leaded the house of Valois-Bourgogne to unite the Low Lands with Burgundy and later to inherit Bohemia and Milan. The Hapsburgs remained confined in Austria, Spain was still disunited,the Teutonic Order strenghtned its positions, Persia become the main muslim power and invaded the Golden Horde and part of Eastern Europe, and the HRE wasn't disunited by Protestantism.

The HRE and BE othen fought against each other, but never really contrasted their spheres of influence. The HRE reformed, giving electorate status to all the states, in exchange for Burgundy to be the only country to have a Kingdom status; in fact, the states incorporated later which were kingdoms were demoted to Grand Duchies.

Burgundy tried to the other states of the HRE to not colonize foreign lands (not recognized as part of the Empire), but the Germanic states in the Baltic, united in a new Hansa, and the Teutons, launched their vessels over the Atlantic. The Hansa settled in the lands between the Orinoco and the Amazon River, the Teutons colonized the

In late 19th century, the burgundian-greek prince Karl John Valois-Burgundy-Laskaris remained the only heir of both Burgundy and Byzantium, and its supporters managed both in the Diet of Frankfurt and in Senate of Constantinople to reunite West and East Roman Empire; but most of the rest of the world wasn't determined to support the birth of a similar behemoth, and WWI begins...

Also, I have still to reply about the last posts over my map.

Originally Posted by deathgod

The borders in Africa especially were rarely based on borders or landmarks existing at the time of your POD. Just look at the Sahara.

About the Sahara, I could agree... I had the initial intention to connect French Algeria with Egypt, so giving France control of Libian desert, but at that point the Italo-French condominium didn't had reason to exist... However I repeat, this first map was only an experiment.

Originally Posted by B_Munro

That still sounds confusing: OTL the French only got involved in Mexico to the extent of putting a monarch in Mexico city because the US was too distracted with the civil war to raise much trouble in the first place: helping out the Confederates and making an eternal enemy of the US really wasn't on the agenda.

Bruce

A surviving First French Empire was confident in its strenght, surely was more strong than the OTL IInd Empire, and however a divided North America wasn't a bad thing for Paris, even if it put the US in the arms of Britain. The Monroe doctrine was defeated, and the rights of Europe to intervene in America were reinforced.

Originally Posted by B_Munro

Also, successfully cleaning up the "Spanish Ulcer" and keeping a loyal Napoleon on the Spanish throne for a century? I have me doots.

Bruce

Why? If Napoleon settled peaceful terms with Britain, Austria and Russia, he could had all the time to restore order in Spain. A protacted guerrila fatigued not only the settled power but also the revolters if they don't get results. without British help, the Spanish revolt in the end was forced to end in favor of the French.

Lastly, I thank Pischinovski for the reply.

[Mumby]

Originally Posted by RyuDrago

Here's a new map following this style, this time showing a surviving HRE-Burgundian dominated and BE in late 19th century. The PODs are many and the butterflies fly high, but essentially were a failed fourth crusade (with Venetian defeat against the Byzantines), a France defeated in the 100YW, different marriage policies which leaded the house of Valois-Bourgogne to unite the Low Lands with Burgundy and later to inherit Bohemia and Milan. The Hapsburgs remained confined in Austria, Spain was still disunited,the Teutonic Order strenghtned its positions, Persia become the main muslim power and invaded the Golden Horde and part of Eastern Europe, and the HRE wasn't disunited by Protestantism.

The HRE and BE othen fought against each other, but never really contrasted their spheres of influence. The HRE reformed, giving electorate status to all the states, in exchange for Burgundy to be the only country to have a Kingdom status; in fact, the states incorporated later which were kingdoms were demoted to Grand Duchies.

Burgundy tried to the other states of the HRE to not colonize foreign lands (not recognized as part of the Empire), but the Germanic states in the Baltic, united in a new Hansa, and the Teutons, launched their vessels over the Atlantic. The Hansa settled in the lands between the Orinoco and the Amazon River, the Teutons colonized the

In late 19th century, the burgundian-greek prince Karl John Valois-Burgundy-Laskaris remained the only heir of both Burgundy and Byzantium, and its supporters managed both in the Diet of Frankfurt and in Senate of Constantinople to reunite West and East Roman Empire; but most of the rest of the world wasn't determined to support the birth of a similar behemoth, and WWI begins...

Also, I have still to reply about the last posts over my map.



About the Sahara, I could agree... I had the initial intention to connect French Algeria with Egypt, so giving France control of Libian desert, but at that point the Italo-French condominium didn't had reason to exist... However I repeat, this first map was only an experiment.



A surviving First French Empire was confident in its strenght, surely was more strong than the OTL IInd Empire, and however a divided North America wasn't a bad thing for Paris, even if it put the US in the arms of Britain. The Monroe doctrine was defeated, and the rights of Europe to intervene in America were reinforced.



Why? If Napoleon settled peaceful terms with Britain, Austria and Russia, he could had all the time to restore order in Spain. A protacted guerrila fatigued not only the settled power but also the revolters if they don't get results. without British help, the Spanish revolt in the end was forced to end in favor of the French.

Lastly, I thank Pischinovski for the reply.

Now THAT is what I am talking about. That, my friend is damn hella crackalacking. You don't get us Brits talking like that very often, so savour it while you can.

[Kuld von Reyn]

different marriage policies which leaded the house of Valois-Bourgogne to unite the Low Lands with Burgundy and later to inherit Bohemia and Milan.

So Charles the Bold's brilliant foreign policy of pissing off every country in Europe actually paid off in this timeline?

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by Benkarnell

Mental preparing for this week's Flag Challenge: the Aegean in 1500.

Smyrna (the main focus of this map) has developed into a powerful maritime republic with a mixed population: the ruling class is a mix of Venetians, Genoese, Franco-Cypriot emigree nobles, and Hospitallers largely from France and Germany; while The People are a mix of Turks, Greeks, Jews, and a few Armenians. Chios, Lesbos, and the Dodecanese are Smyrnan vassal states.

Achaea is the strongest surviving Latin remnant, Smyrna excepted. Achaea, Candia, and Naxos together maintain a vague unity based on the memory of the Latin Empire, but really maintain their neutral status by playing the main trading powers (Bulgaria, Venice, and Smyrna) off one another.

Macedonia is basically a region of small statelets, but the Despot of Larissa has a kind of primacy and is known to western powers as the Prince. It won't be long before it's inevitably partitioned between Bulgaria and Serbia.

Lemnos and Salonica are vassal states of Bulgaria governed by Frankish nobles.

Originally Posted by Benkarnell

Fifty years after the previous map.

Bulgaria and Serbia have expanded into Greece, while the remaining Latin island-fragments have become part of Smyrna's empire, leaving Smyrna and Achaea as the only remaining independent states of the Latin East. (Cilicia expelled the Latins within its borders in the 15th century, then conquered Cyprus and did the same.)

Eastern Anatolia has seen a lot more movement than this map shows. Bulgaria has lost ground to the Turks along the Black Sea coast.

Originally Posted by Benkarnell

The basic scenario actually comes from The Professor for the Flag Challenge... probably I should get on that flag and stop doodling my maps, but that's how things go sometimes.

Anyway, Bulgaria conquered Constantinople only recently, in the very late 1400s. Before that, a much stronger Latin Empire controlled both the City and the Aegean. In the Bulgarians' minds, they certainly are the heirs to Rome, but there was a very long break since the last true Caesar ruled, so this is not simply a case of a Bulgarian dynasty usurping the throne and merging the two states.

In fact, "Bulgarian Empire" is probably just the name by which the West knows it. The new Caesars themselves may well just call themselves Romans.

As for Antioch, no, that fell to the Egyptians as in OTL and remains solidly outside of Cilicia's reach. But Cilicia's borders do extend fuurther inland than they did for most of its OTL history. They had a falling-out, obviously, but for at least a century ot two, Cilicia and the Latins were close allies whose (never-realized) goal was to partition Anatolia between them.

One thing I forgot to mention: the conquest of Cyprus and the expulsion of the Franks from Cilicia was a major factor behind Smyrna's rise. Most of the exiled aristocrats, with their wealth and connections, ended up in Smyrna and helped make it the main commercial center of western Anatolia.

Originally Posted by Benkarnell

The Bulgarian conquest of Latin Constantinople in 1500 made up the givens of this scenario, and I figured that a Latin Empire that lasted for 300 years had to have its institutions well enough in order not to crumble into dust as in OTL; so Bulgaria conquered the core part of the empire intact.

I had not been assuming that at all. If anything, this represents Bulgaria striking out against the Latin scourge and restoring true worship to the City.

Apologies for not saying anything sooner (damn being ill!) but that is just outstanding.

Sometimes a little brainstorming makes a scenario so much better and I'm so glad I was the cause of it this time .

I believe you had better start thinking of a Flag Challenge in return

[RyuDrago]

Originally Posted by Mumby

Now THAT is what I am talking about. That, my friend is damn hella crackalacking. You don't get us Brits talking like that very often, so savour it while you can.

I will be honest, I'm sorry but I don't understand clearly your statement...

Originally Posted by Kuld von Reyn

So Charles the Bold's brilliant foreign policy of pissing off every country in Europe actually paid off in this timeline?

Well, it seemed so.

[Iserlohn]

The final version of my "Napoleon III in 1830"-map; special thanks to wolf_brother, but also B_Munro and Iori for their heated discussion which was very good background for improvement.