Map Thread IX

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Originally Posted by Future8

If I'm not mistaken, those maps are made in Inkscape, so it's highly unlikely that the basemap would be a clean, one-pixel basemap. I have some huge basemaps of North America, even bigger than those, but they're all from the 60s and 80s, so they aren't really Paint-friendly.

Damn, they're made by a guy who calls himself IainFluff on dA, I think he either has or had a profile here too. I asked him if he could provide me with a basemap but he's not replied :/

Basically need a North America map to try and transfer a qbam map onto. Since LSCatalinias rather brutal criticism of the last map I put a deal of effort into I'm determined to flip him a figurative bird by making a more professional looking map. Plus I've been here like 2 years now, I may aswell try to up my game.

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Revolutionary Todyo

Damn, they're made by a guy who calls himself IainFluff on dA, I think he either has or had a profile here too. I asked him if he could provide me with a basemap but he's not replied :/

.

Hmm. I know his ah.com name, but I wonder if it would be a privacy invasion to say...

Bruce

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

Hmm. I know his ah.com name, but I wonder if it would be a privacy invasion to say...

Bruce

No it's fine, you can see if they've read your message on dA, he's seen it and he's not responding. Hence I'd rather not bother him on here too.

[FDW]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

The Ottoman Empire with nukes? Had they survived, they'd be Eurasian equivilient of Sudan or Mexico; one of those places with lots of square kilometers but not a whole lot of projection power. I'm not convinced they could survive, but that's another matter.


Oh, and America still isn't big enough.

Did you forget that the Ottomans were sitting on a fuckton of oil that would've caused their fortunes to do a compete 180?

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

The Ottoman Empire with nukes? Had they survived, they'd be Eurasian equivilient of Sudan or Mexico; one of those places with lots of square kilometers but not a whole lot of projection power. I'm not convinced they could survive, but that's another matter.

They have more oil than Saudi Arabia, a more democratic system of government, and a dated but useable base for infrastructure. The Ottomans would be a power house. More money than Allah and plenty of people to turn that wealth into technology or products. They can also hold the world by their collective balls and dare anyone to try something.

[EmmettMcFly55]

The Kiat, the Ottomans have oil. And a lot of it. EDIT: I see some of our other posters already reminded you of that.

And they have Chinese support. It's kind of like mega-Turkey ITTL, and Turkey IOTL isn't particularly weak.

As for America's size, Washington DC would agree with you.

Originally Posted by B_Munro

Overall, I like the map, but I had some quibbles:

1. can’t see the Indians staying allies with the Chinese when it is the Chinese that won’t let the Indians annex Rajputna, or why the Chinese would care if they do.

Well, China liberated them, and they are grateful for that. As for the other reason, it's kind of tied in with me wanting to use the RCS colours wherever possible, while also avoiding outlined countries which never appear in Munroist maps. So, it appears that India and Rajputana are independent powers, but they are being kept on a fairly tight leash. Plus, there's the fact that the Russians back Deccan, and the Italians refuse to give up Goa. That is not to say that India does not aim to retake Rajputana, which it certainly does - it just sees Deccan as a first opportunity.

As for why the Chinese would care, well, my Vietnam history book tells me the Chinese weren't all too unhappy with the creation of a separate South Vietnam in 1954 because it would keep North Vietnam weak and thus no challenge to China's power. The same qualifications apply ITTL to China. The Indian guerilla fight in the Deccan recieves only symbolic Chinese aid in comparison to Africa.

2.The pink part of India: is that the part of the Deccan overrun by guerillas?

Are you referring to the part where Indian purple is horizontally striped with Deccan orange? Then yeah, it is.

By the way, the red lines were something I forgot to include in the key - they represent the division between the power blocks (if you hadn't yet guessed). The thick lines are between one power block and another, and the thin, one-pixel lines are between one power block and a neutral state.

3.The African rebels seem to be doing improbably well against a richer, more powerful, and more brutal colonizer than the Brits ever were. The continued existence of that Katanga state seems particularly improbable.

Considering the Katanga guerillas fight out a vicious guerilla war (which would cost the lives of a lot of Germans to break) and present a convenient bogeyman, the Germans are actually a bit reluctant to destroy them. And as for the other movements, Chinese (and in some cases Brazilian) money is everywhere. Plus, the (West) African people are very sick of colonialism. And to be fair, many would have said the OTL Cambodian regime I compared it with was improbable too, hadn't it happened.

By the way, it's no state - they haven't been around long enough for that, and they aren't organized enough either. They're just a fairly strong and fairly brutal socialist army.

4.That’s an improbably straight line in Nigeria: it does not follow provincial, linguistic, or religious boundaries.

I think the problem with that is that I've worked too long on this, and that my eventual explanation was probably different from the one I had in mind when I drew the line. I think now it was meant as a sort of a cease-fire line along a parallel that corresponded roughly to the religious boundaries. In the end, the cease-fire line stuck (although it's only been a few years since it was created). I'm contemplating changing it - you're right, it is fairly improbable.

5.I can see a revanchist USA, but I suspect it would keep at least the forms of democracy, and it’s dislike for large numbers of dark-skinned peoples as citizens. Puppetized Latin America, yes, and annexation of some key bits, yes, but Americanized Mexico, to be divided into new states? Unless “Americanization” means “genocide of the locals” I find that very unlikely.

"Americanization" means in this case more what "Italianization" means in Libya, although to a less extreme degree. The *USA would try to overwhelm the new districts with settlers (with varying degrees of success) and encourage the local population to assimilate or to emigrate. As for democracy, well, they lost two wars ITTL (the War of Secession and the Great War) so the system lost a lot of popularity since. ITTL, Sweden-Norway is probably the only functioning democracy around. They're not entirely undemocratic - they still have presidential elections, although the candidates are limited to the right half of the political spectrum - but the army is, and considering Mexico, Columbia, Central America, Guyana, Alaska, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Newfoundland and Roosevelt (the northeastern territory) are under army occupation... well, life is harsh there.

6.Those would be Chinese allies in South America, not vassal states. If China is open enough to modernize technologically, it’s also going to realize that it needs to modernize its diplomatic relations, or the South Americans will be looking to Russia and Germany.

Did I ever say they weren't?

By all accounts, the South American states are Chinese allies - there's no way China could puppetize them. Or... wait, did you get confused between the Brazilian and Chinese colours? The key states the difference, and I thought it would have been obvious what states are Chinese/Chinese tributaries/Chinese puppets, and which are Brazilian.

7.I would think Russia would be more interested in seeing its fellow orthodox Slavs break away from Turkey than the Kurds…

Normally, yes, but at the peace negotiations the Turks refused to let go of the Danube frontier, so the Russians came up with a compromise in which Kurdistan got its independence, while Greater Bulgaria got autonomy (you can see it's larger even than San Stefano Bulgaria on the map). However, over the years, as Ottoman power was restored, the sultan also returned his reign over Bulgaria, slowly but surely. The Russians were about to intervene on that in 1954 when the Chinese threatened them with war if they did, so the Russians backed down and the sultan signed an alliance with Beijing.

Nevertheless, despite the fact that Bulgaria is mentioned in 9 out of 10 Russian propaganda posters or broadcasts, the Russians aren't all too unhappy with the deal, because between their Kurdistan and Italy's Cyprus, they have the ability to cut Turkey in two relatively easy if war emerges - and that's always a good thing.

By the way, what did you think of my attempt to use RCS-Munroism on this map? It's not as funny as the footnotes on your maps are, and I didn't really make an attempt in that direction either, but, well, I think it was a good try at mixing the RCS colour scheme with your map style.

And what do you - and anyone else who might be interested - think would result if World War III (nuclear or not) does indeed break out ITTL?

[Sun-Tzu]

Originally Posted by Sun-Tzu

Just an Idea that came to me whaile I was taking an AP test.What do you all think?

No love for Tejan/Britwank North America?

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Sun-Tzu

No love for Tejan/Britwank North America?

Needs to control the whole north side of the Rio Grande. And another coast.

[The Kiat]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

They have more oil than Saudi Arabia, a more democratic system of government, and a dated but useable base for infrastructure. The Ottomans would be a power house. More money than Allah and plenty of people to turn that wealth into technology or products. They can also hold the world by their collective balls and dare anyone to try something.

Russia has oil. Mexico has oil. Venezuala has oil. Arabia has oil. Iran has oil. Indonesia has oil. With the exception of Russia (which isn't doing so well these past couple of decades) none of them have the ability to project their forces (what little they have) into various regions. As for daring anyone to try... Iraq has oil. Iraq got invaded. The Turks push the wrong buttons and they'll get their regime changed.

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

Russia has oil. Mexico has oil. Venezuala has oil. Arabia has oil. Iran has oil. Indonesia has oil. With the exception of Russia (which isn't doing so well these past couple of decades) none of them have the ability to project their forces (what little they have) into various regions. As for daring anyone to try... Iraq has oil. Iraq got invaded. The Turks push the wrong buttons and they'll get their regime changed.

...

Turkey today is a major power in the Middle East. With the extra oil money and population, it would easily be able to project power into North Africa, southern Europe, and other places. Your logic has holes in it you could sail a Dreadnaught through.

[TurkishCapybara]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

Russia has oil. Mexico has oil. Venezuala has oil. Arabia has oil. Iran has oil. Indonesia has oil. With the exception of Russia (which isn't doing so well these past couple of decades) none of them have the ability to project their forces (what little they have) into various regions. As for daring anyone to try... Iraq has oil. Iraq got invaded. The Turks push the wrong buttons and they'll get their regime changed.

None of those, except Russia, have been powerful in the recent past, have they? Iran, Venezeula, and Mexico have been unstable and pinned in by Greater Powers. The Arab states have nothing other than oil, they are desert. I don`t know much about Indonesia.

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by EmmettMcFly55

This is a map in which I attempt to combine a semi-Munroist style with the good old RCS color scheme. It was started in response to the Map of the Fortnight Challenge to depict a world with a North-South Cold War. (Rather than a West-East one as IOTL.) People who remember that challenge know how long ago I thus began working on this map and its backstory. I worked on and off on it for some time, and today I finished it.

Anyway, backstory first (and it's relatively long):

The point of divergence in this map lies in China, 1835, where the Empress-Dowager Cixi is not born. The immediate result is that in the place of her son, a different boy is born to her replacement, who is a lot more reform-minded. China implements western modernizations throughout the second half of the Nineteenth Century, and not without success – The Sino-Japanese War ends up becoming a draw at best for the Japanese, and Korea is put firmly within the Chinese influence sphere.

Butterflies affect the wider world in that they make Britain be more assertive in the Trent Affair, resulting in the usual: they join the war, the Confederacy gets independence and America grumbles. Other butterflies include a Tsar Alexander II that avoids assassination, and an Ottoman Empire that picks up the Chinese ideas and decides to experiment with change, too. Also, the French bully the Spanish into a union after some crazy rightist general takes power in the 1880s. Not much news. Prussia and Sardinia-Piedmont manage to unify their respective countries in much the same way as IOTL, though – some things are inevitable.

In the late 1910s, a World War breaks out between Austria-Hungary, the USA, Japan (desperate for allies) and Germany on one side, and Italy (didn’t like the Austrians laughing when they were beaten up by the Ottomans in their attempts to take Libya), France, Britain, the Confederacy, Russia and China on the other side. The Ottoman Empire itself is neutral in the war, although the Italians obtain an Anglo-French guarantee to their interests in Libya. The Germans launch an ambitious von Schlieffen-like plan through the Low Countries to knock out France, which nearly works. Spanish and British help stop the German steamroller from taking Paris at the last minute, though, and French army reforms don’t help the Germans either. What is worse, while they spend the summer of 1917 playing in Northern France, the Russians have overrun Galicia and East-Prussia up to Danzig. Oh great.

Next spring, the Russians launch their ‘follow-up offensive’ into Austria, with Italian help. The Ottomans, who have stayed out of the war thus far, wisely continue that course as they see Austria being taken apart bit by bit. Serbia and Romania give some help on that front. In the meantime, the Germans do whatever they can to help their ally, but decades of propaganda has some effect on the Austrians and the empire breaks apart by June 1918. The Russians stand in Budapest, and the only way for Germany to protect Austria and Bohemia is to occupy them by herself.
Overseas, Japan’s attack on Peking ‘to end the war’ turns out to be no good idea. The Japanese reserves are torn apart, and the Chinese decide to ask for British aid to invade Japan. Since the Brits are kind of busy at the moment, China decides to improve their navy while clumsily bombarding Japan from the sky – a new idea. In America, the USA has some success against the Confederacy, but Richmond and Atlanta just won’t fall, the Canadians are making trouble, and the news from Europe is anything but good.

Germany launches a final offensive to take Paris, and thanks to a lot of luck, they succeed. France begins falling apart and Russia decides it is time to take action. Russian forces swarm across the Vistula and march west towards the Oder, while Italian troops launch attacks in Tyrol. Inspired, the French launch a counter-offensive and manage to surround the German troops in their capital and drive most of the others a long while back. An exhausted Germany decides to ask for a ‘fair peace’ as long as they can still get one.

Overseas, the USA isn’t too happy by the news coming in from Europe. They decide to launch a final offensive against Atlanta, and succeed. The Confederacy is cut in two, but with the Confederate government not willing to consider an unconditional surrender and soldiers from all around the world (primarily Britain) gearing up to move on the US, ‘the Americans offer a ‘fair peace’ like Germany just asked the Entente. Dixie decides that they won’t have the strength to hold out until Britain comes, and accepts. The Americans now attempt a similar strategy against the Mexicans, who have been fighting along with the British for quite a while now. This tactic fails, and by the end of the year the Mexican capital is still out of reach. A British offensive is launched in the spring of 1919 and the American lines collapse, resulting in them suing for peace. Japan does the same shortly thereafter, as they can’t fight the whole Entente.

A peace is signed, one which the Central Powers deem particularly harsh. One by one, they fall to a certain revanchism, while the Confederates withdraw into isolationism, hating the British (who they perceive as having failed to save them on time) and the Americans just as much. The former Central Powers rearm cautiously over the following years, and manage to destabilize the Entente. Italy, which goes far-right as well, is drawn to their side with promises of expansion against France, China seeks to remove the colonial hegemony Britain still possesses, and Russia finds Central Asia to be quite interesting.

When war breaks out between Russia and Britain over Turkey in 1943, the Central Powers immediately jump to Russia’s aid. The Turks are pushed out of Africa and the Caucasus, and after seeing France fall to Germany, they accept a fair peace. Britain and Spain hold out longer, but when America starts interfering in the conflict in 1945 (they were neutral before) they know they are lost. A Japanese attempt to support the Entente backfires dramatically, ending with the Chinese army enforcing peace on Japanese soil.

The peace conference sees a drastic reshaping of the world that ends with Germany, Russia, America and China clearly on top of the globe. Conflicts break out shortly thereafter as the new superpowers can’t seem to agree over their influence spheres. War is narrowly averted several times, and after the invention of nuclear power, most people agree that is for the best. The United States maintains a shaky peace with the Confederacy, deeming that they have enough on their plates already. China allies with rump-Turkey, and starts doing things the CP’s hate, like promoting anti-colonialism. Even the Americans aren’t really happy with that, since the Chinese call their ‘incorporation’ of Central America and the Caribbean colonialism too. They start cuddling up to the Russo-German block, although the government is mindful not to get integration too far – America may hate the Chinese Block, but they have no love for the League either. As a result of these increasing Sino-American tensions, South America begins to like the Chinese.

And that’s how the situation is when in 1963 – while they are already annoying the USA with the victory parades commemorating the hundred anniversary of the successful CS bid for independence – the Confederates decide to join the Chinese block, and all hell explodes…

Originally Posted by EmmettMcFly55

And the accompanying map, of course:

Very nice, dude. I do have a few small nitpicks, though;

1.)Some of the U.S. states would look better with border adjustments.....mainly OTL's N.M., Arizona, and South Texas, but OTL's Sonora as well. (Also, why is the Virginia Triangle it's own state? It'd be more plausible if part of Kentucky instead.....)
2.) How did the Ottoman Empire survive with such size, with only such a small amount of territory between Russia and the Mediterranean?
3.)How come Germany is about to annex France but allowed Hungary to remain intact?

Sorry if it seems I'm being overly critical.....this is a fun concept.

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

...

Turkey today is a major power in the Middle East. With the extra oil money and population, it would easily be able to project power into North Africa, southern Europe, and other places. Your logic has holes in it you could sail a Dreadnaught through.

And lack of power projection is not the same as being unable to effectively defend on their own ground. Red China didn't have any power projection ability to speak of in the early 50s, but they sure managed to make it pretty hot for the US during the Korean war.

Bruce

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

And lack of power projection is not the same as being unable to effectively defend on their own ground. Red China didn't have any power projection ability to speak of in the early 50s, but they sure managed to make it pretty hot for the US during the Korean war.

Bruce

Thank you.

[Abhakhazia]

Almost time for Map Thread X.....

[Zheno]

Originally Posted by Abhakhazia

Almost time for Map Thread X.....

WHEN IS THIS MAP THREAD X?

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Abhakhazia

Almost time for Map Thread X.....

Not even close.

[Klisz]

Originally Posted by Abhakhazia

Almost time for Map Thread X.....

New Map Threads start at ten thousand posts.

[Abhakhazia]

Originally Posted by Klisz

New Map Threads start at ten thousand posts.

Ok. Didn't the first one stop at about 6,000

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Abhakhazia

Ok. Didn't the first one stop at about 6,000

I think it has varied, but don't feel like checking.