Urien of Rheged not assassinated

robertp6165

Urien of Rheged was one of the most successful of the early British kings resisting the encroachment of the Anglo-Saxon invaders. During the 580s A.D., he led a coalition of northern British kingdoms who were fighting the Angles of Bernicia and almost destroyed them. They had, by the year 590, basically pushed them into the sea, with King Hussa of Bernicia trapped in the fortress of Bamburgh and under siege. However, Urien was assassinated at the orders of one of his erstwhile allies, King Morcant Bulc of Bryneich (ironically, it was Morcant's kingdom which Urien was trying to liberate at that time), and Hussa was able to take advantage of the chaos which resulted and scatter the Britons, who were never able to reunite again as they had under Urien. The Angles of Bernicia (as Bryneich became known) gradually expanded their hold over the north, and later united with those of Deira to form the kingdom of Northumbria.

But what if Morcant had been killed earlier in one of the battles which led up to the siege of Bamburgh? The siege is successfully concluded, Bamburgh is captured and the people there mostly massacred. The Britons harry the land, killing or driving away most of the surviving Angles. Urien lives for another quarter century, finally dying in the year 615. In between, he and his coalition make war on Deira and destroy it too.

So Northumbria is essentially stillborn and the Britons control everything north of the Humber by the year 615. What effects does this have? Could this be the springboard for an eventual British reconquest of the entire island? In just a few years, Cadwallon ap Cadfan of Gwynedd, another of the greatest leaders ever produced by the Britons, will be active...and he, in cooperation with this surviving Northern British Alliance, may prove impossible for the invaders to withstand.
 
Last edited:
Alex Richards

Alex Richards

Donor
I like it.

I think this may be early enough to get some changes in the traditional Welsh succession laws as well, so we avoid seeing everything split up between sons. A few strong Kingdoms in Wales, a North British Alliance that could easily evolve into a 'Rheged plus appendages', and a generally stronger celtic presence could lead to a very interesting situation. Celtic Christian, Brythonic version of the Heptarchy anyone?
 

robertp6165

Josephus said:
http://www.facesofarthur.org.uk/fabio/app7.htm
Click to expand...

I'm quite aware that the historicity of the events in question are disputed. Indeed, there is not much about this period which is NOT disputed, somewhere, by somebody.

If your only contribution to threads about Dark Age Britain is going to be to come in and make drive-by swipes at the historicity of various figures involved in most of the commonly accepted histories of the era (you did the same thing in Cymraeg's "Cato's Cavalry" thread regarding Hengist), then I might suggest that you find a more productive way of filling your time.
 

jmberry

robertp6165 said:
I'm quite aware that the historicity of the events in question are disputed. Indeed, there is not much about this period which is NOT disputed, somewhere, by somebody.

If your only contribution to threads about Dark Age Britain is going to be to come in and make drive-by swipes at the historicity of various figures involved in most of the commonly accepted histories of the era (you did the same thing in Cymraeg's "Cato's Cavalry" thread regarding Hengist), then I might suggest that you find a more productive way of filling your time.
Click to expand...
It would help if he didn't use a source as bad as "Vortigern Studies", a website that claims (among other insanities) Ambrosius Aurelianus was simply St. Ambrose being edited in to British history by virtue of the irrefutible fact that both men had "Ambrose" in their name.
 

jmberry

robertp6165 said:
Urien of Rheged was one of the most successful of the early British kings resisting the encroachment of the Anglo-Saxon invaders. During the 580s A.D., he led a coalition of northern British kingdoms who were fighting the Angles of Bernicia and almost destroyed them. They had, by the year 590, basically pushed them into the sea, with King Hussa of Bernicia trapped in the fortress of Bamburgh and under siege. However, Urien was assassinated at the orders of one of his erstwhile allies, King Morcant Bulc of Bryneich (ironically, it was Morcant's kingdom which Urien was trying to liberate at that time), and Hussa was able to take advantage of the chaos which resulted and scatter the Britons, who were never able to reunite again as they had under Urien. The Angles of Bernicia (as Bryneich became known) gradually expanded their hold over the north, and later united with those of Deira to form the kingdom of Northumbria.

But what if Morcant had been killed earlier in one of the battles which led up to the siege of Bamburgh? The siege is successfully concluded, Bamburgh is captured and the people there mostly massacred. The Britons harry the land, killing or driving away most of the surviving Angles. Urien lives for another quarter century, finally dying in the year 615. In between, he and his coalition make war on Deira and destroy it too.

So Northumbria is essentially stillborn and the Britons control everything north of the Humber by the year 615. What effects does this have? Could this be the springboard for an eventual British reconquest of the entire island? In just a few years, Cadwallon ap Cadfan of Gwynedd, another of the greatest leaders ever produced by the Britons, will be active...and he, in cooperation with this surviving Northern British Alliance, may prove impossible for the invaders to withstand.
Click to expand...
On topic, Urien would still have to face the power of Dunuat of Dunotig and Gwallawc of Elmet, the same alliance that his son Owain had to face OTL. Historically Morcant then killed Owain (which would happen TTL, obviously) and Rheged broke apart, with Urien's cousin Llywarch ruling a successor state before being kicked out by the Northumbrians, leading to Cadwallon's war and the end of the Britons as a major player in Britain. Beyond that, the only other thing I can find out about Urien's line is Owain's son St. Kentigern/St. Mungo, who was opposed in his missionary work by a "King Morken (Morcant?)."

EDIT: Adding to this. From my research for a "Cadwallon-wins" TL, I don't see the Britons regaining the south - that is pretty much lost to the Saxons by this point. By the time you Urien die Cynegils of Wessex has conquered the Durotriges. What I do see is a probable clash with Mercia. Penda is coming along and would be the obvious rival with Rheged for control of the North. I can see the two kingdoms coming to blows, and both kingdoms trying to court Cadwallon into an alliance (OTL he allied with Penda against Edwin of Northumbria). But even if the Gododdin kill Penda and harry Mercia, Wessex, Essex, Sussex, Kent, and Anglia are too entrenched to remove. So likely English south, Briton north.
 
Last edited:
The Professor

The Professor

Perhaps a less successful Briton-north scenario is more likely. Ie Bernicia is back under the Britons but Deira (in the East at least) survives.
We could then see a scenario where Mercia subsumes all the Angle Kingdoms and Wessex the Saxon ones (more or less since the borders would likely change hands a few times).

NB I know the difference between the Angles and Saxons (and Jutes and Frisians etc) aren't all that great linguistically but there is some minor cultural differences that I could see being amplified over time (moreso than OTL ;))
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top