Belfast Celtic lives on

[miguelrj]

For those who appreciate football rivalries, you may know that one of the fiercest was Northern Ireland's Linfield vs. Belfast Celtic. It was especially fierce because unfortunately it had a sectarian background, Linfield being protestant and Belfast Celtic Catholic. It was pretty much an Old Firm analogue with a much more virulent sectarian background.

All of a sudden, after a violent derby on Boxing Day 1948 when Linfield fans stormed the field and attacked Belfast Celtic's players, Belfast Celtic decided to withdraw from the Irish League. The club disbanded soon afterwards...

What if Belfast Celtic keeps its Belfast headquarters and pulls an early "Derry City" and starts playing in the (Republic of Ireland's) League of Ireland? Could Derry City and every other Catholic Northern Irish clubs do the same move in the late 40s, early 50s?
The reasoning for this is that Belfast Celtic was a very influential club. We'd see an All-Ireland and All-Catholic League of Ireland to these days and the Irish League would be an exclusive Protestant and Non-Aligned franchise. Would this divide contribute to early Troubles?

Alternatively, Belfast Celtic moves to Dublin. But that won't produce as much butterlfies, I believe.

[FletcherofSaltoun]

Its a very good question. I think that this would considerably aide the development of Northern Irish football, had they stayed in the Northern Irish League. Without such a rivalry, Linfield were left to dominate Northern Irish football, albiet with Glentoran arising as their main rivals. Equally, if Belfast Celtic had joined the League of Ireland, their rivalry and Northern Irish football wouldn't have grown as it otherwise could have done and not much would have changed in all liklehood except another part-time team in the LoI.

One thing I would add is the Old Firm were based on their sectarian background. Celtic were founded by a monk and Rangers never signed a catholic for many, many years of their history. As such, you'd probably see a development of Northern Irish football with a full-time league, propped up by Linfield and Belfast Celtic with Glentoran and Derry City striving to be the third force.

So a league more lopsided than the Scottish league, but one with full-time teams is my bet.

[miguelrj]

I didn't even consider the possibility of Belfast Celtic carrying on playing in the [Northern] Irish League simply because I thought their withdrawal was a wise move.

They complained that the Police made no real effort in protecting their players and there simply were no conditions to carry on. Had they carried on, the Irish League would be yet another source of instigation between the two communities and football fields would be battlefields.

I just think it's a pitty that such a traditional club didn't find a solution to continue to exist.

[FletcherofSaltoun]

Originally Posted by miguelrj

I didn't even consider the possibility of Belfast Celtic carrying on playing in the [Northern] Irish League simply because I thought their withdrawal was a wise move.

They complained that the Police made no real effort in protecting their players and there simply were no conditions to carry on. Had they carried on, the Irish League would be yet another source of instigation between the two communities and football fields would be battlefields.

I just think it's a pitty that such a traditional club didn't find a solution to continue to exist.

Their withdrawal was a monumental mistake. It was an over-reaction to hooliganism. If you doubt that, I point you to the number of matches they have played since. They played in the Irish League for fifty years, so to make the battlefield comment is stratching it a bit.

Had they stayed, it would not only have helped Northern Irish football, it may have in the long run helped give an outlet for community tensions, which would otherwise turn nastier.

As you say, they could have moved to the League of Ireland, but that is not at all interesting as they would just have become another part-time team in Ireland. Had they stayed, the potential for growth was significantly greater.

[miguelrj]

Originally Posted by FletcherofSaltoun

Their withdrawal was a monumental mistake. It was an over-reaction to hooliganism. If you doubt that, I point you to the number of matches they have played since. They played in the Irish League for fifty years, so to make the battlefield comment is stratching it a bit.

Well... I was commenting on hindsight since the Troubles are only two decades away so sectarian tensions aren't improving in time.

Originally Posted by FletcherofSaltoun

Had they stayed, it would not only have helped Northern Irish football, it may have in the long run helped give an outlet for community tensions, which would otherwise turn nastier.

Hmm... It makes sense what you say that football matches could be a way for communities to blow off steam in a clean way. It sure is neater to have nationalism expressed mostly through football matches and nations "fighting" each other in World Cups rather than World Wars.
I'm not so confident that a healthy rivalry is possible in a tainted environment though. I remember that the 1990 Dinamo Zagreb–Red Star Belgrade riot was one of the first signs of the fuck-up that was about to fall upon Yugoslavia. Not football's fault, of course. It provided an excuse though.

[FletcherofSaltoun]

Originally Posted by miguelrj

Well... I was commenting on hindsight since the Troubles are only two decades away so sectarian tensions aren't improving in time.
.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Two decades is a long time, and even a small change like this could make larger changes down the line.

Hmm... It makes sense what you say that football matches could be a way for communities to blow off steam in a clean way. It sure is neater to have nationalism expressed mostly through football matches and nations "fighting" each other in World Cups rather than World Wars.
I'm not so confident that a healthy rivalry is possible in a tainted environment though. I remember that the 1990 Dinamo Zagreb–Red Star Belgrade riot was one of the first signs of the fuck-up that was about to fall upon Yugoslavia. Not football's fault, of course. It provided an excuse though

The aftermath of the 1980 Scottish Cup Final between Rangers and Celtic, who have(or had until Belfast Celtic left the Irish League)a hell of a lot in common between Linfield and Belfast Celtic, including the sectarian edge. Given this was in the 40s and the troubles were probably going to happen in the coming years, you could see the odd scene like this.

All that being said, this game shamed Rangers and Celtic into changing their ways also ushered in a period of dominance by Aberdeen FC. If the Linfield-B.Celtic rivalry grew in the same manner, they would need each other to survive, financially as much as anything and this could give them some will to make changes, something else you haven't factored in.

So you could get at least a portion of the population concentrating on the football field rather than politics, the clubs with an interest to keep each other alive and as a result with an interest to grow financially. It could help the situation in Norn Iron somewhat.

[miguelrj]

Originally Posted by FletcherofSaltoun

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Two decades is a long time, and even a small change like this could make larger changes down the line.

The aftermath of the 1980 Scottish Cup Final between Rangers and Celtic, who have(or had until Belfast Celtic left the Irish League)a hell of a lot in common between Linfield and Belfast Celtic, including the sectarian edge. Given this was in the 40s and the troubles were probably going to happen in the coming years, you could see the odd scene like this.

All that being said, this game shamed Rangers and Celtic into changing their ways also ushered in a period of dominance by Aberdeen FC. If the Linfield-B.Celtic rivalry grew in the same manner, they would need each other to survive, financially as much as anything and this could give them some will to make changes, something else you haven't factored in.

So you could get at least a portion of the population concentrating on the football field rather than politics, the clubs with an interest to keep each other alive and as a result with an interest to grow financially. It could help the situation in Norn Iron somewhat.

I said Linfield-B.Celtic was an Old Firm analogue with a more virulent sectarian background because... well, I don't know much of how tense sectarian relations in Scotland got to be but I don't think they ever were on a "I'll kill you" basis like in Ulster.

I do consider the Old Firm rivalry a very healthy one. It would have been great if we had something similar in Belfast.

[FletcherofSaltoun]

Originally Posted by miguelrj

I said Linfield-B.Celtic was an Old Firm analogue with a more virulent sectarian background because... well, I don't know much of how tense sectarian relations in Scotland got to be but I don't think they ever were on a "I'll kill you" basis like in Ulster.

I do consider the Old Firm rivalry a very healthy one. It would have been great if we had something similar in Belfast.

Rangers signed something like one or two catholic players in their entire history from 1872 until 1989 and until today both of them sing songs of a sectarian nature. That beig said, today the Old Firm are in a relatively healthy state(pending the outcome of the Rangers Tax Case). Its nothing like in the video I posted today.

It got worse in Norn Iron with the troubles. I think an Old Firm-style scenario may have considerably helped Northern Ireland.

The Derry City scenario is, in my honest opinion boring however.

[miguelrj]

Originally Posted by FletcherofSaltoun

The Derry City scenario is, in my honest opinion boring however.

In sporting terms, it's boring inasmuch as it's not very different from OTL: Linfield still becomes the only powerhouse in the IL and perhaps B.Celtic becomes big in the LoI. Bottomline there won't be big derbies.

In political terms, this desertion could start a domino effect, and Catholic N. Irish start to abandon more and more N. Irish-based institutions and embrace only All-Irish ones sticking their relations with UK-backed authorities to the bare minimum.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by FletcherofSaltoun

That beig said, today the Old Firm are in a relatively healthy state(pending the outcome of the Rangers Tax Case). Its nothing like in the video I posted today.

It's good that they are in good terms but I don't mind if institutional relations between 2 rival clubs are sour or not to consider the rivalry healthy.
My Benfica is in bad terms with both FC Porto and recently with Sporting and I still call these rivalries healthy inasmuch as the fans of each team don't have murderous hatred towards the other groups.