What if . . . the Vikings had STAYED in Vinland (North America)

In the 10/11th century of OTL, small groups of Vikings explored Greenland, Newfoundand, Nova Scotia, and perhaps New England.

They established small colonies, but these were non-viable due to their small size and lack of support from home.

WHAT IF they had established sustainable colonies, explored further southwards, etc?

How would the history be different? How would the various groups of Amerinds ("American Indians") have fared when their 1st contacts with the west were with a small (but larger than OTL) number of axe-weilding Scandinavians rather than horse-riding Spaniards with firearms?

Subtler question: what would be the effect of 500-year earlier introduction of maise/corn, cotton, tobacco, potato, beavers, fishing grounds, etc to Europe, particularly Northern Europe?
 
You would have to get some reason for more people to want to move there. They were out at the end of a very long limb - Scandinavia itself wasn't that densely populated, the colony in Iceland was not that big, and the colony in Greenland was very small. It was like a series of stepping stones that went from small to smaller. Plus, it was very remote for people who navigated without any compasses or specialized equipment for measuring sun angles and latitude - even people as brave as the Vikings. Remember in OTL that Iceland, Greenland, and Vinland were all discovered by accident, by ships being blown off course.

Another problem was that the Scandinavians didn't bring the disease advantage that later colonists did - Scandinavia was apparently one of the lowest areas for diseases in Europe. In fact, Scandinavians themselves suffered some from this - when the Black Death hit Norway, it supposedly killed up to 2/3 or more of the people in some areas as opposed to the 1/3 in many other areas because people in general had weaker immune systems.

On the other hand, Vinland did have some advantages. It was a much nicer place to live in than Greenland or even Iceland in many respects. On the other hand, it had natives, which Iceland and southern Greenland had few of none of when the Vikings first arrived.

If they got 1 or 2 colonies going and managed to avoid conflict with the natives for long enough, perhaps some of the Greenland colonists would move to the less harsh climate on Newfoundland or Nova Scotia. Greenland could end up being abandoned entirely, with Vinland becoming the "go-to" spot for people in Iceland or even Norway who didn't have enough land or had other problems. Greenland could become just a place to stop on the way.
 
How about the younger brother of a major Thane becomes ambitious and starts a 'civil war', which is ended when one side agrees to exile, and takes a large group of loyal followers with them. After the first generation passes away, the exiles reconcile with the homeland, with ships returning full of beavers, fish, wine, and a new source of trells as a peace gift...

While we're at it, let's assume that somebody invents a magnetic compass, too.
 
Welcome to the board, Tinfoil

In my Anglo-Saxon TL, Norman and I did this by having the Anglo-Saxons resist the Norman Invasion and turn into the cultural capital of Scandinavia. Now that the Vinland colonies are part of the cultural sphere of one of the most populous and richest kingdoms of Northern Europe, they become a haven for exiles, outlaws and other malcontents.

Two hundred years later you have Anglo-Norse kingdoms set up in Massachusets, Anglicised native tribes beginning to form kingdoms around the Great Lakes and a crusade from Europe to the Yucatan to crush the Maya (long story- check the Fiction board ;D)
 
Interestingly, a single ship with a few men and women accidentally reaching the new world would be enough to start a colony. Making it normal for fishing boats to be "manned" by women (I don't know how much that was the case) might increase the chances for this to happen.

Let's say it happens in the year 900, with 4 couples.

If those first colonists manage to survive the first few years (maybe they land on an Island with no big permanent Amerindian settlement, somewhere around Newfoundland), they'd quickly be big enough to start an offspring of Viking civilisation.

If they know farming (at least some gardening to begin with), they'd even have an advantage over many northern Amerindians.

Once the colony has reached about 200 people (after about a hundred years) it might be able to build boats big enough for reaching surrounding isles and the American continent. That might allow some trade with the natives, which would also be helpful in getting to know which plants can be eaten and how to prepare the ones that can only be eaten cooked, dried, or the likes.

After another 200 years (1200, 20 000 Scandinavians, growth limited by "new" illnesses like Syphillis), there should be several small villages of 10-2000 people scattered over the whole area, some farming, bigger boats, and so on. Wars with the natives will probably be avoided, but some adventurers might destroy small Amerindian settlements in the area (they are still Vikings).

If the Vikings mix with the Amerindians, a mixed civilisation would result, Amerindians would get slightly more European looks and some European technologies. Might lead to interesting changes in dealing with the natives later, when the British, the French, the Dutch, and the Spanish arrive.

If there is no large mixing, there might be some smaller wars when the Vikings try to get to the continent, but there'd probably be little resistance on some isles and in much of the far north.

Both should allow an expansion of the (core) settlement to 200 000 people by 1300, and ships able to cross the Atlantic. After some time, the colonists will probably have contact with the Norse, which should lead to an influx of traders, fishermen, colonists, missionaries, and so on.

If the Scandamericans have stayed pretty Scandinavian in language, culture, and looks, that would be a rather peaceful process, and there'd be a spread of the Scandinavians throughout north-east America quickly. If big differences have developed in the meantime, a small war might erupt, after which the settlements are probably conquered within a few years.

Either way, the north-east of Northamerica turns into a Scandinavian influenced nation, able to fight off explorers from other European powers there. The Spanish and Portuguese start their explorations earlier and conquer the south, pretty similar to OTL, but slower in some places due to more knowledge about Europeans and European abilities in the area (horses and carts might be introduced already).

The plague will probably affect the area a lot, and it will come in combination with Syphillis. Therefore, a population which could have been 2 million by 1400 is reduced to 500 000.

Novascandia, as I'll call the area from now, will become independent at about 1500 (5 million) to 1600 (50 million), as it will be too big than to be effectively controlled by a Scandinavian power, if it ever was. It will also have extended to most of North and East America.

In the year 1700, Novascandia has split into several nations due to internal wars over land, when the population explosion has met its limits of then known technology. Instead of the potential 250 Million people, the intense fighting reduced the population to 100 million people. They are covering all of North America including Alaska, while the area around Florida, Texas and California is Spanish. In some ways, Novascandia is very advanced, and due to more farming much more populous than what the Europeans found at that time there IOTL. In other ways, it probably misses a few European developments - no very free market, no industrialization, and so on. Therefore, the odds in any war against the Spanish are pretty even at that time, especially considering the fact that Spain was still a world power then, and the different Novascandian nations liked to fight each other, too.

By 1800, the population of Novascandia has increased to 500 million people. America doesn't look like the America we know, more like a copy of Europe, with small towns every few miles all over the country, and with a similar population density to Europe (or China, or India, and so on, for that matter). Florida, Texas, and California have been taken away from the Spanish. Thanks to the high population numbers, contact with Europe, and some economic competition with Europe, Novascandia has become as dominating as Great Britain was IOTL at that time, despite a few deficits in terms of technology and economic policy. Novascandian nations were able to grab a few parts of Australia (kind of like Africa IOTL), and, in later wars with GB, get most of the rest of it.

By 1900, the population has reached 1 billion people (not as much as it sounds, considering the big space and the development in places like Europe and China at that time). The technological lead has gone to Novascandia, Europeans form bigger blocks earlier because of the competition. Maybe some wars have lead to a dominating power in Novascandia, maybe Novascandia stays a patchwork like South and Middle America IOTL.

By today, there are 2 billion people living there. That's Europe plus SE-Asia on a twice as large and pretty fertile territory (OTL Kanada, USA, Australia).

Such an increase in population is probably the main difference if America had been colonized 500 years earlier. Not too rosy a vision for our environmentalists, I suppose...
 
tinfoil said:
Subtler question: what would be the effect of 500-year earlier introduction of maise/corn, cotton, tobacco, potato, beavers, fishing grounds, etc to Europe, particularly Northern Europe?
Cotton would be important... would maize really be? I think beavers are native to Europe as well as America, but were reduced to tiny numbers fairly early. Potatoes.... these are native to the Andes, and is it likely Scandinavians are going to go there and find them?
 
Dave Howery said:
Cotton would be important... would maize really be? I think beavers are native to Europe as well as America, but were reduced to tiny numbers fairly early. Potatoes.... these are native to the Andes, and is it likely Scandinavians are going to go there and find them?

Well the abundant beavers would provide a new, good source of fur.
Maize...isn't really going to do much.

Cotton isn't going to do much for Northern Europe as I doubt it could actually grow anywhere North of the Med.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
tinfoil said:
After the first generation passes away, the exiles reconcile with the homeland, with ships returning full of beavers, fish, wine, and a new source of trells as a peace gift...quote]

Not wine. New World grapes make very bad wine (disgusting, to be perfectly blunt about it). Nor was it easy to transplant European grapes to the New World, because they were all killed by phylloxera- as Thomas Jefferson found out to his sorrow. It was only after people learned to graft European grapevines onto American rootstock that grapes worth making wine from were grown in America.

Interesting sidebar: phylloxera spread from America to Europe in the 1880s, nearly wiping up the French, Italian and Spanish wine industries. Today, though they are loath to admit it, the Europeans make their wine from grapevines grown from grafted American rootstock (from Texas, of all places!)
 
Could the metal tools used by our Viking in this ATL, start a new culture in the native American cultures?

Would horses become part of the program? The Viking would bring European Horses, Cows and pigs to North American, they would be taken by Native Tribes and would soon be all over the place?

Just some ideas, or questions about Neo Viking in North American.
 

Redbeard

Banned
If the European countries which in OTL were the main target of Viking raids and later settlement had been more cohesive and with stronger defence, the Vikings might have sought towards NA instead. In OTL Europe was rich, close and ready to pluck - change the last and other areas might become interesting.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Assuming there would be no major pandemics of European diseases in the New World from this low-intensity colonization (quite possible given the low population densities and gradual time for adaptation), I would speculate the following:

New World
Norse settlement would gradually spread along the coast of Newfoundland and down the Northeastern seabord of the USA. Additional voyages from Vinland might extend along coast into Hudson's Bay area and along eastern coast of north American possibly into Carribean, Gulf, and Meso-American areas. Norse would adapt to a susbsistence and settlement pattern suitable to the new world - as it became apparent North American could support them, they might even cease trips back to Iceland and Scandinavia and become a purely North American culture. Probably the Vinland language would diverge fairly significantly from the evolution of other Germanic Scandinavian languages as isolation and the inevitable use of Native American loan words and maybe even grammatical structures were added. Effects on native cultures would include spread of metal tools (first thru trade and then possibly indigenous manufacture), adoption of animal husbandry using whatever animals the Norse brought with them, and possibly cultural adaptations mirroring Viking political structures, especially if individual Norse settled among natives. Possibly quasi-Norse mixed population Native chiefdoms would arise along the boundaries of Vinland and into the interior of the continent. Norse paganism might be reinvigorated or never abandoned by some of the Vinland settlements. Regardless, the effects of Norse settlement/colonialization would almost certainly be less distruptive on Native peoples than that of the Spanish and English in the 1500s-1700's - the technological differences were not a great and the pace of Norse expansion would proably be quite slower.

Old World
I suspect effects would be minimal for the reasons already mentioned. Native crops would not be well-suited to the climate of Scandinavia and Northern Europe, and few of the natural resources in Vinland would be that attractive and valuable in Scandinavia (no gold, fancy trinkets, etc). The biggest change might be information. Almost certainly, the knowledge of a western continent would become more widespread in northern Europe, possibly triggering additional trips and voyages (possibly affecting my assumption of Vinland isolation above). Such information might spread to Western Europe and Islamic Spain leading to an earlier wave of contact with the rest of the Americas (say in 1200-1400) by completely different groups than in OTL. Who knows. While MesoAmerica might still fall just about as fast, Viking-influenced Native Chiefdoms with more advanced technology and greater immunity to European diseases in North America might weather colonialism and retain their independence - at least as well as Asian and Middle Eastern cultures did in OTL
 
Vikings in America

Just an additional comment. Skandinavia at the time of the Norse colonization was undergoing a change in political/religious makeup. Relatively loosely organized pagan chiefdoms in Norway and other areas were being replaced by centralized Christian kingdoms, a process many Norse did not wish to be part of. Iceland was colonized by Norwegians who did not wish to become subjects of Harald Harfagr (Fairhair) who was uniting Norway by force if necessary. It would have been interesting to see more of these pagan Norse make it to Vinland and amalgamate to varying degrees with the Algonkian and Iriquoian cultures. You would then have Norse culture split into two groups: Centralized, feudalized Christian kingoms in Skandinavia and perhaps more loosely organized non-feudal pagan Norse/Amerindian cultures in America.
 
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