In my defens God me defend - A Scottish History

[Ironstark]

SBC Television Center, Edinburgh, Scotland

"Hello and welcome back to the 6 o'clock news. I am your presenter Charles Howards. A chest of letters, charts, maps and various other written material from the 14th century onwards, written by a single family living in Edinburgh over 5 centuries, has been donated to the Scottish Imperial museum. It has revealed to us in great detail a 1st hand look at the Scottish way of life, and the common man's reaction to the events of the times. Historians are incredibly excited about this as very little written evidence has survived the hundreds of years that have passed. Here is an extract from a journal, written by John McKenny, a scholar."

"It is the year of our Lord 1328. For years we have been under the cruel occupation of the English. But now, we have risen like a pheonix! The invasion of the North of England by Robert the Bruce has forced Edward Longshanks to sign the Treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton, which recognises the independence of Scotland with Bruce as King. To further seal the peace, Robert's son and heir David, has married the sister of Edward III. This is a glorious time for Scotland!"

--

OCC stuff

Hello! And welcome to my timeline on an independent Scotland! I hope you will all enjoy and help me write what I hope is an original and engaging story. I plan to go from my POD in the Scottish Wars in independence all the way up to WW2 and maybe beyond. I will certainly need some help along the way as my historial knowledge is fairly limited!

Certain ideas I have rolling around are:

• The clan system survives.
• A small scottish colonial empire
• A very different Spanish Armada event
• Lots of other random small stuff.. and kilts!

I also hope to bring in a bit of narrative aswell as writing simple dates and facts. I will also try and get up some maps and various images. I will be looking forward to some of you writers getting involved, and some of you pro historians helping me make a plausable timeline!

So yeah...


Freedom!

[Muwatalli']

It looks interesting, and I'm curious to the timeline itself. I always like an independent Scotland.

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

I'll be curious to see how you pull off a small colonial empire.

[Ironstark]

Originally Posted by Muwatalli'

It looks interesting, and I'm curious to the timeline itself. I always like an independent Scotland.

I hope I give the topic credit if you are interested in helping out, id be glad of it

Originally Posted by Emperor-of-New-Zealand

I'll be curious to see how you pull off a small colonial empire.

Scotland did try to set up colonies many times. It was a combination of bad planning and bad luck that prevented scotland having some colonies in OTL. Take a look at the Darien scheme

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Originally Posted by Ironstark

Scotland did try to set up colonies many times. It was a combination of bad planning and bad luck that prevented scotland having some colonies in OTL. Take a look at the Darien scheme

Scotland was near bankrupt before and bankrupt after the Darien Scheme... it wasn't bad planning so much as general stupidity. Of course, with an early enough POD, it's entirely possible to do something workable.

[Ironstark]

Originally Posted by Emperor-of-New-Zealand

Scotland was near bankrupt before and bankrupt after the Darien Scheme... it wasn't bad planning so much as general stupidity. Of course, with an early enough POD, it's entirely possible to do something workable.

Hopefully but as i mentioned in the opening post, i will need a hand with some stuff. Already got a couple of people who are going to help with narrative

[Chookie]

Originally Posted by Ironstark

The clan system survives.
A small scottish colonial empire
A very different Spanish Armada event
Lots of other random small stuff.. and kilts!

Not to rain too much on your parade, but the clan system couldn't survive. While it disintegrated faster after Culloden, it's final death was the Clearances - which for the most part were carried out by clan chiefs. Scotland actually had a small colonial empire before the idiocy of the Darien scheme (it was called Nova Scotia - anyone ever hear of it?). I can get behind the Spanish Armada thingy, but Kilts? What kind?

[Xhavnak]

looks excellent ill be following Make Scotland great !

[Ironstark]

Originally Posted by Chookie

Not to rain too much on your parade, but the clan system couldn't survive. While it disintegrated faster after Culloden, it's final death was the Clearances - which for the most part were carried out by clan chiefs. Scotland actually had a small colonial empire before the idiocy of the Darien scheme (it was called Nova Scotia - anyone ever hear of it?). I can get behind the Spanish Armada thingy, but Kilts? What kind?

Ah, thats interesting about the clans. I will make sure to research that more. I did read about Nova Scotia but discovered that it failed. Im hoping for a noticable Scottish presence in the Americas and elsewhere if i can find the right PODs

And kilts? Uhm.. this?

Originally Posted by Xhavnak

looks excellent ill be following Make Scotland great !

Thanks will do!

[Darth_Kiryan]

Now this is something to look forward too.

[Chookie]

Originally Posted by Ironstark

Oh hell no. Never. No bloody way. That is the Feile beag or "Little kilt" and believe it or not it was invented by the British army as a cost-cutting exercise. Most people who comment on the origins of the modern kilt blame it on Thomas Rowlandson (an inronfounder in Glenmoriston in the 1730s). They forget that the major difference between the great kilt and the little kilt is the sewn-in pleats in the little kilt (a sign of regimentation) besides, one great kilt could make two little kilts - and, just possibly a contribution to a personal pension fund?

[SavoyTruffle]

As long as we steer clear of a British union consider me interested.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by SavoyTruffle

As long as we steer clear of a British union consider me interested.

And if the Bruces take longer to die out so that the name of Bruce is held in shame by virtue of some descendant of Bob the Bastard, that's good too.

Chookie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hi...ldier_1744.jpg ?

That looks like a Scottish toga, I swear.

[Ironstark]

Should have a little update leading up to 1332 and the 2nd war of independence later on today or tomorrow

[theDisciple]

I knew you were going to make a Scottish TL sometime and here it is Looking forward to it.

[Ironstark]

Originally Posted by antiquus

I knew you were going to make a Scottish TL sometime and here it is Looking forward to it.

Ive been waiting a long time for this just been researching alot to make it as plausable as possible

[Chookie]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Chookie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hi...ldier_1744.jpg ?

That looks like a Scottish toga, I swear.

Could very well be - except I don't think we ever saw many togas in Caledonia .

Now, just for the tourists here, this is demonstration of how to put on the Great kilt. It's filmed in the Great Hall at Edinburgh Castle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBbg9...eature=related

[Star Warrior]

Isn't modern-day scotland considered a more clannish and egalitarian society than say, England?

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Chookie

Could very well be - except I don't think we ever saw many togas in Caledonia .

Well, MacPherson wrote the Ossian poems to demonstrate the 'Homeric' character of Gaelic culture. Which is obviously ridiculous. One of the groups in question were a collection of fractious tribes living in a land of mountains and islands, causing trouble for larger polities, sharing a strong ethnic consciousness which never stopped them slaughtering each-other in hereditary feuds, and looking with sneering contempt on people who wore trousers.

The other were the Gaels.

Originally Posted by Star Warrior

Isn't modern-day scotland considered a more clannish and egalitarian society than say, England?

Frankly, nope. The idea that we are more egalitarian than England is a very long-standing part of our national consciousness, promoted in particular by the 'Seceding' tradition of Presbyterianism, but only partly true - in the 19th C we put up with lower wages, higher costs of living, rotten housing, and less unionisation all courtesy of our native-grown industrial elite, God bless 'em, while the English and Welsh organised and did something about it. The reason Scotland was red in 1919 was because we were catching up. And we've milked the idea for all it's worth since Thatcher. But it's by no means been a fixed historical thing: in the 1790s, the Lord Provost of Edinburgh called egalitarian radicalism 'an evil spirit from John Bull'. We were supposed to be too pious and loyal for English-type revolutionism.

So, we like to think we're awfie egalitarian and hey, I'm not complaining, it's a nice thing to think about yourself. But whatever does this have to do with clannishness? The clan system was an aristocracy of military feudalism in which loyalty to superiors was the supreme virtue. There was a paternalistic give-and-take element, but you generally get that wherever the feudal aristocracy are actually in contact with the unwashed masses.

Scots today are not clannish unless you mean that Scots outside Scotland tend to bunch up.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Ironstark

SBC Television Center, Edinburgh, Scotland

"Hello and welcome back to the 6 o'clock news. I am your presenter Charles Howards. A chest of letters, charts, maps and various other written material from the 14th century onwards, written by a single family living in Edinburgh over 5 centuries, has been donated to the Scottish Imperial museum. It has revealed to us in great detail a 1st hand look at the Scottish way of life, and the common man's reaction to the events of the times. Historians are incredibly excited about this as very little written evidence has survived the hundreds of years that have passed. Here is an extract from a journal, written by John McKenny, a scholar."

Translated from the Scots?

Originally Posted by Ironstark

"It is the year of our Lord 1328. For years we have been under the cruel occupation of the English. But now, we have risen like a pheonix! The invasion of the North of England by Robert the Bruce has forced Edward Longshanks to sign the Treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton, which recognises the independence of Scotland with Bruce as King. To further seal the peace, Robert's son and heir David, has married the sister of Edward III. This is a glorious time for Scotland!"

Whereas the biases of Mr. McKenny may be showing through, I would clarify that our actions had little to do with the end of the war: Bruce's starting to act like king in Northumberland probably sharpened English minds, but the real reason for the treaty was Isobel and Mortimer's putsch and their desperation to wind up England's foreign commitments so they could keep the lid on at home.

We'd been raiding the North almost continuously since 1298; England's rulers in the southeast shrugged it off with Thatcherian nonchalance.

Originally Posted by Ironstark

The clan system survives.

The survival of the clan system, as Chookie points out, has nothing to do with the fortunes of Iain and Morag. In fact the clan system was 'articificially' kept alive for decades, as it were. In the first half of the 17th C blood feuds were getting rarer and rarer, the royal magistrates were being taken seriously, disputes were being resolved by arbitration.

It was the violent dislocations of the Wars of the Three Kingdoms that reversed this process and at the same time settled in Lowland minds the idea that the Gaels might as well be Iroquois.

Dodge that, and the Highlands probably go the way of the Borders, which were pacified at that time and had formerly been just as wild and clannish. Highland-Lowland relations are better, Gaelic culture is not an object of disdain and Gaelic education is probably encouraged by the kirk, and Gaelic culture probably ends up a lot better off. There's no way for the process of industrialisation and urbanisation not to be traumatic for Gaeldom, but then it was traumatic for everyone: the Highlanders fell victim to something of a perfect storm. Like, twice.

On a sidenote: much of the modern Scottish self-image was pinched wholesale from Gaeldom (like the land): kilts, the great pipes, the cult of the Highland landscape, and so on. And even then, the extinction of Lowland self-awareness that has led to Robert Burns being dressed in a kilt and other eldritch horrors happened in the last century with the falling-off of Presbyterian consciousness.

This is very subject to butterflies, so quite possibly in any ATL, the majority of Scots will never wear a kilt in their lives.