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  #2041  
Old November 6th, 2012, 05:12 PM
NCW8 NCW8 is offline
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Originally Posted by The Blue-Eyed Infidel View Post
Like Thande, I haven't seen all of the TOS episodes; pretty much anything out of my top five could be bumped off.
I've managed to see most episodes over the years. Ther were some episodes banned by the BBC in the 1970s, but I've since seen those apart from Whom Gods Destroy. There's a couple others that I can't recall seeing - Wolf in the Fold and The Ultimate Computer.

Cheers,
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  #2042  
Old November 7th, 2012, 07:23 PM
stevep stevep is offline
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Brainbin

Been away a bit longer than I expected and catching up. Loved the Episode guide.

Must admit I had largely forgotten about Roots. It was good when I 1st saw it in Britain, back in the 70's but hadn't realised the impact it made in the US, although in hindsight the potential is there.

Fascinating discussions and some interesting ideas.

On the mention of Daria I checked Julie Benz's Wiki entry and the interesting thing I find was that she initially auditioned for the Buffy role.

Interesting that it was Jon Pertwee that the BBC used for the radio/audio series. Partly a matter of timing but he was my favourite doctor. This also rang a bell in my own memory. I remember catching one episode [only but can't remember why] of another radio do, starring Jon Pertwee and Liz Sladen, which I think was set on an alien planet. Only think I can remember was that they were being pursued by some 'unstoppable' monster, which had been set on them by the villeins. This doesn't seem to fit with either of the series mentioned in the web link posted but the pages mention a 3rd one was planned before Jon's death so not sure where it fitted in?

Steve
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Old November 7th, 2012, 08:04 PM
phx1138 phx1138 is offline
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Originally Posted by stevep
Julie Benz's Wiki entry and the interesting thing I find was that she initially auditioned for the Buffy role.
So did Charisma, apparently, & Sarah for Cordelia. Interesting as that would have been, IMO they had to cast somebody with proven talent as Buffy, or the show would've failed: if you don't believe her, you won't buy the show. Sarah makes it all work IMO: she carries the show.
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  #2044  
Old November 8th, 2012, 02:00 AM
Brainbin Brainbin is online now
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Everybody Was Kung-Fu Fighting

“Never tries to run away,
dies and lives another day!


Theme from Live and Let Die, written and performed by Stevie Wonder

The mystique and allure of the Orient had gripped Western culture for millennia, dating all the way back to the Roman Empire, whose wealthy patricians greatly coveted the exotic goods produced under the contemporary Han Dynasty of Ancient China. In the many centuries following the Fall of Rome, no single Western civilization could rival the opulence and splendor of the Far Eastern dynasties until the eighteenth century, with the rise of the (European) Great Powers. But even before their decline began in the early 20th century, Orientalism had re-ignited, thanks in large part to rise of Imperial Japan as another Great Power. For better or for worse, it was that island nation which would come to be seen as the foremost representative of the region in the minds of Westerners, from that point forward. Even its status as the most bitter and hated enemy of the United States in World War II (and coming in a close second in British and French estimation, behind Nazi Germany) could not permanently extinguish such underlying curiosity.

As soon after the war (which had very nearly destroyed Japan) as the 1950s, the Land of the Rising Sun was again making its mark on the Western popular consciousness. This drive was spearheaded by director Akira Kurosawa (fittingly seen by some of his colleagues in the Japanese film industry as “too Western”), who had crafted some of the most acclaimed and influential motion pictures ever made, including Rashomon, Ikiru, Seven Samurai, Throne of Blood, The Hidden Fortress, and Yojimbo. By the late 1970s, many of these had been adapted for overseas consumption, either with Kurosawa’s blessing (The Magnificent Seven) or without it (A Fistful of Dollars). That many of his films had themes associated with the Western genre was no accident; the director he idolized above all others was John Ford, a four-time Oscar-winning director from the Golden Age of Hollywood who had come to define the genre. Kurosawa, in turn, had attracted something of a fan club of his own, from the rising “New Hollywood” generation; members of which included Francis Ford Coppola, George Lucas, John Milius, Martin Scorsese, and Steven Spielberg. [1] It was largely through his inspiration to their development as filmmakers that he would achieve his greatest (though somewhat more indirect) impact in popular culture. Though his work was generally well-regarded in Japan, it was stateside that he met with his greatest plaudits; it echoed the situation of the previous generation, when Anglo-American director Alfred Hitchcock became the darling of the French nouvelle vague, which coined the “auteur theory” in order to describe him; it quickly spread to encompass both Kurosawa and many of his “New Hollywood” acolytes.

The ease of the cultural translation from the Japanese jidai geki genre (set in the feudal period prior to the Meiji Restoration) to the American Western genre would also facilitate other cultural translations from elsewhere in the Orient, principally the products of Chinese culture. In the 1970s, most of the Western bloc had formalized relations with the People’s Republic of China, following the awarding of the permanent Security Council seat in the United Nations to that state (at which time it was revoked from the Republic of China, also known as Taiwan). Any relationship between Red China and the United States remained non-existent, however; among major US allies, only Israel had also declined to establish relations by the end of the decade. [2] However, and in marked contrast with Japan (and its short-lived empire), Chineseculture reached far beyond the borders of even the former Imperial state, at its territorial apex at the turn of the century. These outposts included several key strategic holdings formerly (Singapore) and currently (Hong Kong) held by the British, giving them direct access into the wider culture of the Anglosphere; the Chinese diaspora also included a large and entrenched population in the Americas, particularly the United States and Canada. This was also true of the Japanese diaspora, of course; but the Chinese were both more concentrated and far less assimilationist, having more in common structurally with a subculture (akin to, say, African-Americans). This allowed them to form the nexus of the Asian-American community, and it was not surprising, given their mutual second-class histories, that some solidarity could be found between Black and Asian minority populations).

Naturally, the primary catalytic force behind the Orientalism of the 1970s was a Chinese-American, named Bruce Lee. Born in San Francisco, Lee’s parents were from Hong Kong; his father was full-blooded Cantonese, and an actor and opera singer; his mother, on the other hand, was the scion of an aristocratic family which was mixed-race – part-Cantonese, and part-British. The couple were in the United States because Mr. Lee was on tour with his performing company; they were gone almost as soon as they had arrived, back to Hong Kong … just in time for the Japanese to invade in World War II. After the war had ended, and the occupation had lifted, the young Bruce found himself routinely getting into fights with some punks who were up to no good, and started making trouble in his neighbourhood. After one too many fights, his parents got scared, and then they enrolled him into martial-arts classes. The need for self-defence quickly matured into a passion, and then a discipline, which would inform his entire life.

Martial arts were generally regarded by Orientalists as central to Far Eastern philosophy and spirituality, which differed from the somewhat more rigid belief systems traditional in the West. Both China and Japan had long been dominated by syncretic religion, a combination of native rites (Confucianism and Taoism in China, and Shinto in Japan) with Buddhism, imported from the Indian subcontinent (which, indeed, took root far more strongly in the lands to which it had immigrated). The hippies and counter-culture of the 1960s had immediately embraced many of these ideas; not entirely shocking, given their epicentres in locations with large East Asian immigrant populations. Bruce Lee got the chance to disseminate his discipline among the lay population in the West when he returned to the United States to further his academic studies in 1959; he immediately began instructing anyone willing to learn, which would become his primary vocation throughout the 1960s. However, following in the footsteps of his father, he also attempted to break into acting; his most high-profile role in the era was that of Kato, sidekick to the Green Hornet in his short-lived eponymous series. It lasted for only one season – 1966-67 – and is best-remembered for its close association with the contemporary Batman series (whose own success had resulted in it being made in the first place), culminating in a crossover, wherein Lee (and his co-star, Van Williams) appear in Gotham City opposite the Caped Crusader and the Boy Wonder. However, Lee was unenthusiastic about his supporting role, believing himself to possess the chops – both as an actor and as a martial artist – to be able to carry a show on his own shoulders. At about the same time, he began to devise his own system of martial arts, which eventually became known as Jeet Kune Do. However, the general public continued to use many terms for Chinese martial arts, including wing chun, properly a single style which Lee himself had practiced prior to developing his own techniques; kung-fu, a Western neologism; and wushu, which was the standard Chinese term. [3] It was not to be confused with two other well-known Asian martial arts, karate and judo, both of which were Japanese in origin.

But becoming a star stateside would not prove nearly as easy as developing a new martial art, which was limited only by his own talent and discipline, both of which he had in abundance. However, celebrity required shattering societal restrictions, and that required opportunity and influence. Fortunately for Lee, he had devised his own means of creating these for himself: a new television series, a star vehicle which would depict the life of a Chinese-American in the Wild West; it was a logical historical setting for a person of his ethnicity, and this character focus would put a new spin on quite possibly the hoariest of television genres. He approached a number of studios with the idea, including Warner Bros. [4] and Paramount, but only Desilu Productions, which had established a sterling reputation for racial progressivism in its already-existing series, was willing to make a show on his terms. The Way of the Warrior would begin airing in September of 1972, and would carry on the tradition set by previous series including Star Trek, Mission: Impossible, and Night Gallery, in not shying away from pressing social issues, though in this case it would do so in a strictly historical context. [5]

Lee was a highly charismatic and attractive performer, and his series became an instant hit: it was “serious” and able to attract strong critical notices, but at the same time it had a massive popular appeal through the unique take on a time-worn setting, and spoke to an audience largely ignored by other programs. It was therefore only logical that the series entered the Top 30 immediately upon its debut and remained there throughout the entirety of its run. The key 18-49 demographic loved the show; young men loved the clever and stylistic action sequences, and young women loved the lithe, toned body of Bruce Lee, who would rarely pass on the opportunity to go shirtless for a scene, becoming one of the premiere male sex symbols of the 1970s. Most notably, The Way of the Warrior performed superbly in two key minority demographics: Asians (obviously) and Blacks, who as a proportion of the population were far more numerous than Asians, but nevertheless seemed to embrace Lee and his martial arts wholeheartedly. The emphasis on racial discrimination and bigotry constantly faced by his character on the show obviously struck a chord with them; his constant fighting with “the Man” (who, this being the Wild West, was merely the ringleader of whichever band of troublemakers happened to be riding through that day) appealed greatly to the Blaxploitation ethos. Indeed, martial arts in that genre of films quickly developed a more Oriental bent to them in general, even notwithstanding the budding sub-genre of “Blasian” fusion movies within Blaxploitation. Chinese-American choreographers became an integral part of this rising “Black New Hollywood” movement, making the name something of a misnomer. In addition, The Way of the Warrior became an overseas smash, and the most popular American program of the 1970s throughout the Orient, excluding Japan (though even there, it was very well-received). Needless to say, it became a veritable institution in Lee’s home turf of Hong Kong, inspiring a veritable flood of imitators within the native film industry. [6]

By the 1976-77 season, Lee was beginning to feel that he had made the most of the creative opportunities availed to him by working on The Way of the Warrior, and wanted to transition into action movies, having already heard of the success of the many films that he had inspired back in Hong Kong (which, upon crossing the Pacific, were also doing surprisingly well at the American box-office). The major studios were well aware of how popular he was overseas, which bolstered him as it had done for other established foreign “name” actors in the past, such as the Mexican Ricardo Montalban, who had proven very popular with the Hispanophone audience in the 1950s. Desilu was already transitioning from dramatic, action-adventure series back toward the sitcoms for which they had first made their name in the 1950s and 1960s, so the studio had no major qualms with one of their two remaining dramatic hits coming to an end. Thus, the series concluded a five-season run of 120 episodes in the spring of 1977. [7]

Meanwhile, that most internationalist of movie franchises, James Bond, found itself indulging in both Blaxploitation and Asian Martial Arts with the two films directed – appropriately enough – by the American Kurosawa acolyte, Steven Spielberg. Having made a name for himself with Jaws, the wildly successful film adaptation of the Peter Benchley novel of the same name, he was invited to fulfill what he had always stated to be a dream of his, ever since Dr. No: directing the latest adventures of 007. The next Bond film after the smash Moonraker was called Live and Let Die, and would premiere in 1976. [8] As they had done with Moonraker, the studio opted to tap into the zeitgeist, but their chosen exemplar – the Blaxploitation genre – had aged enough that it was already slightly dated by the time that the film actually reached theatres. However, this proved beneficial, as by 1976, many Blaxploitation films had grown increasingly sophisticated and creatively ambitious; thus, Live and Let Die fit that aesthetic in a way that it would not have done a few years before, when the genre lived up to its name, in terms of exploitative filmmaking techniques. Black audiences would also flock to see the film, which featured Billy Dee Williams an American CIA agent, the “Black James Bond”, as the media naturally described him. Talks of a spinoff film featuring the character ensued, though they quickly fizzled. Stevie Wonder, at the very height of his career, performed the popular theme song, which (as was typical in his lyrical content at the time) emphasized the possibilities of reincarnation and spiritual rebirth. The song reached the Top 40 in the United States (and was included on his Grammy-winning album, Songs in the Key of Life), but had a decidedly more lackluster response in the UK, finishing well behind “Moonraker” by Queen (who were emerging as major musical superstars). [9] Locations chosen for Live and Let Die included the Gulf Coast of the United States, and various islands in the Caribbean – a nod to both Moonraker and to the first Bond film, Dr. No.

The Man With the Golden Gun followed, in 1978. As with Live and Let Die, it focused on an established fad of the era in which it was developed: the Oriental Martial Arts film. However, on this occasion, the producers were able to ride a wave, as opposed to hoping to revive one, as had been the case with Moonshot Lunacy in 1974, and Blaxploitation in 1976. Therefore, the film was naturally a massive success. Location filming was done in (among other places) Hong Kong, putting the substantial talent pool and industry resources available in the area to good use – and most of the people involved were happy to contribute to as venerable a franchise as James Bond. In an echo of the role held by Oddjob as chief henchman to the titular Goldfinger, the right-hand to the primary villain of the film, Scaramanga, was a skilled Chinese martial artist. He was played by stunt performer Jackie Chan, who won over casting agents with his charisma, along with the willingness to do two jobs for the price of one. [10] (He would also serve as a choreographer for many of the other Hong Kong performers, as he was well-regarded within the industry). Harold Sakata, who had played Oddjob, was sadly unable to capitalize on his exposure following Goldfinger; Chan, on the other hand, took the cachet from his appearance and would emerge by the turn of the next decade as the biggest male star in Hong Kong. It was to his credit that his turn in the Bond film was actually quite atypical of his later, more comedy-oriented career, owing more to Buster Keaton than even to Bruce Lee. Spielberg, for his part, declined to direct a third Bond film (tentatively planned as For Your Eyes Only), eager to move on to other films, and to other genres


---

[1] And Robert Altman, though he is a nobody ITTL because his career stalled after M*A*S*H bombed at the box-office.

[2] ITTL, the last major US ally to establish relations with Red China up to this point was Australia, which did so in late 1975; this is because the strongly pro-US Coalition government was successfully re-elected in 1972 (only to be defeated in the following election).

[3] The term “kung-fu”, used near-universally IOTL to refer to Chinese martial arts (only the most ardent Sinophiles would instead use the native term wushu), was popularized (though not originated) by two OTL sources which do not exist ITTL: the series Kung Fu (1972-75), which here instead exists as The Way of the Warrior, and the Carl Douglas song “Kung-Fu Fighting”, released in 1974, as a direct result of the popularity of Hong Kong martial arts films, a wave which will not exist without Bruce Lee to head it.

[4] Warner Bros. was the OTL studio to develop Kung-Fu, which (it has often been said) stole the idea from Bruce Lee without giving him credit or even casting him in the lead (instead choosing the white American David Carradine to play the half-Chinese Kwai Chang Caine).

[5] IOTL, Kung-Fu would occasionally touch on these issues, though not with nearly the same depth or sincerity as The Way of the Warrior ITTL. Lee plays a full-blooded Chinese-American (as opposed to the “half-Chinese” character played by Carradine), and the show additionally dwells on the plight of what were then known as “Negroes”, many of whom were cowboys (continuing the idea of twisting a hoary genre inside-out). This naturally creates a cross-racial appeal for Lee from the very beginning.

[6] The genre of films inspired by Lee was IOTL described as “Bruceploitation”, largely springing up after his death in 1973, contemporary with his rising popularity ITTL.

[7] Kung Fu ended production after a mere three seasons in 1975, though a revival series (also starring Carradine) would air on the PTEN syndication package in the early 1990s.

[8] More details on the timing, development, and production of Moonraker ITTL can be found in this update.

[9] More elaborate “prog”-type songs in the Queen catalogue eventually give way to sheer bombast and virtuosity, as was also the case IOTL, though I obviously know better than to pin down such gifted creators and specify how similar their specific songs would be to OTL, given the dramatically different environment in which they are written.

[10] IOTL, Chan worked as a stunt performer for Bruce Lee himself; ITTL, he gets his start in the later Bruce-less Bruceploitation films, only to have an earlier break.

---

I hope you all enjoyed that look at East Asia! Contrary to popular belief, I did plan to focus on that region of the world; I merely wished to avoid one country (or two countries, depending on your reckoning, and the precise, chronological geopolitical situation) in particular. Also, I know that a number of you were asking after the martial arts situation ITTL, so I hope that this sheds some light on it for you. Yes, Bruce Lee lives as well, and the manner in which he inspires the Hong Kong film industry is rather more indirect than IOTL, though it does yield much the same results. Spielberg also has two more massive hits on his resume in the 1970s, though some of you may be wondering about some of his OTL works of the period. Your questions will be answered in due time, I assure you. (I still have to deal with that friend of his, too… the one with the flannel.)

Special note: Please observe that I have used the sensitive term
“Oriental” to refer only to regions or concepts, and not to people. Thank you
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Last edited by Brainbin; November 8th, 2012 at 02:15 AM..
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  #2045  
Old November 8th, 2012, 03:47 AM
vultan vultan is offline
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Nice to see East Asian culture getting a leg-up in the West here! It's enough to make one wonder what's happening with good ol' Godzilla...

Speaking of which, I wonder how the POD is affecting Japanese television. Brainbin has said he wasn't going to devote too much attention to it, and rightfully so, but seeing as we got a hilarious Spider-Man TV series in this decade, what else could get adapted ITTL? There was a thread recently asking about the possibility of a Japanese Batman series in this decade. Or what if some Japanese producers decide to follow the prevailing trends in pop culture and we get a hilarious Star Trek rip-off?

But speaking of China again, one wonders how the average American's perception of the country would change in the long-term without the normalization of relations with America, and, therefore, economic liberalization.

Great installment!
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  #2046  
Old November 8th, 2012, 11:49 AM
Tizoc Tizoc is offline
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I've been reading this TL for some time, but it's my first comment here. As I don't know much about pop-culture of those times, it'll be about politics:

UN and Taiwan (Republic of China) - there's a mention of ROC no longer in UN Security Council, but nothing is said about it being kicked out of UN altogether. Does it mean TTL there are two Chinas in UN? With US-PRC relations colder it wouldn't be surprising for US to prevent kicking ROC out, I believe.

That said, keep up good work.
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  #2047  
Old November 8th, 2012, 02:47 PM
stevep stevep is offline
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Originally Posted by Tizoc View Post
I've been reading this TL for some time, but it's my first comment here. As I don't know much about pop-culture of those times, it'll be about politics:

UN and Taiwan (Republic of China) - there's a mention of ROC no longer in UN Security Council, but nothing is said about it being kicked out of UN altogether. Does it mean TTL there are two Chinas in UN? With US-PRC relations colder it wouldn't be surprising for US to prevent kicking ROC out, I believe.

That said, keep up good work.
Which actually raises the question of how was the ROC removed from the security council OTL? Given it was one of the permanent great powers it could veto any motion to remove it from the role and hence form the UN.

I'm guessing it succumbed to pressure from the US along the line of giving up a UN role and keeping under the US shield or trying to go it alone and being very isolated and vulnerable.

In TTL, if US-PRC relations are a lot cooler then this might not happen, at least for some time. In which case the communist are still politically out in the cold and the ROC still holds the 5th permanent seat on the UN. Which would be rather weird to us. Think such a situation would be unstable in the longer term however, unless things go different in the PRC and it has a very bad period. [Which given what happened under Mao is really bad but possible.]

Steve
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  #2048  
Old November 8th, 2012, 04:56 PM
LordInsane LordInsane is offline
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Which actually raises the question of how was the ROC removed from the security council OTL? Given it was one of the permanent great powers it could veto any motion to remove it from the role and hence form the UN.

I'm guessing it succumbed to pressure from the US along the line of giving up a UN role and keeping under the US shield or trying to go it alone and being very isolated and vulnerable.
If memory serves, a key part of it was the General Assembly redefining the government representing China in the UN as being the PRC. That technically didn't have to go via the Security Council, so it could be done without a veto.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:46 PM
stevep stevep is offline
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If memory serves, a key part of it was the General Assembly redefining the government representing China in the UN as being the PRC. That technically didn't have to go via the Security Council, so it could be done without a veto.
LordInsane

OK thanks. That makes sense, although it does imply that the Security Council could theoretically be by-passed on other issues.

Steve
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Old November 8th, 2012, 06:13 PM
NCW8 NCW8 is offline
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Originally Posted by Brainbin View Post
[FONT=Verdana]“Never tries to run away,
dies and lives another day!


Theme from Live and Let Die, written and performed by [B]Stevie Wonder
Stevie Wonder instead of Paul McCartney ? How is McCartney's career progressing ITTL compared to OTL ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainbin View Post
In addition, The Way of the Warrior became an overseas smash, and the most popular American program of the 1970s throughout the Orient, excluding Japan (though even there, it was very well-received). Needless to say, it became a veritable institution in Lee’s home turf of Hong Kong, inspiring a veritable flood of imitators within the native film industry. [6]
Given how popular both the Kung Foo tv series and Bruce Lee's films were in OTL, this is probably going to be a big hit in the UK as well. And yes they were another part of popular culture parodied by the Goodies. Be careful, as the episode about the Lancastrian martial art of Ecky Thump has literally caused someone to laugh themselves to death.

Cheers,
Nigel.
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  #2051  
Old November 8th, 2012, 08:12 PM
unclepatrick unclepatrick is offline
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Why does the James Bond people chose a young kid who first big hit has not even come out in 1978?
Jackie Chan first big hit in Asia is Snake in the eagle Shadow which was released in 1978 in Hong Kong. He would follow that Up with Drunken Master which was Chan first comedy Kung Fu movie.

It amazing that the Bond producers could see the success Chan would be in the future.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:35 PM
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I recommend that you change your choice. How about actor Alexander Fu Sheng as the kung fu using assistant?
He had a mix of comedy and Action styles in the 1970's in Hung Kong Movies during the 1970's and his films are still highly thought of today in Asia. If the Bond Producer are going to look for a actor from Hong Kong for a bond film, than they are more likely to pick Alexander than a unknown person like Jackie in 1978.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fu

Alexander might have agree to choreograph the action but a better choice would have been Lau Kar-leung who just release his first great film 36th Chamber of Shaolin.

He also work as a Martial Art Choreographer sine the early 1970's and had a great reputation .

If you want to keep Jackie Chan than you need to move the movie to the 1980's.
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  #2053  
Old November 9th, 2012, 12:24 AM
e of pi e of pi is online now
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Originally Posted by unclepatrick View Post
Why does the James Bond people chose a young kid who first big hit has not even come out in 1978?
Jackie Chan first big hit in Asia is Snake in the eagle Shadow which was released in 1978 in Hong Kong. He would follow that Up with Drunken Master which was Chan first comedy Kung Fu movie.

It amazing that the Bond producers could see the success Chan would be in the future.
They don't need to be convinced by some future success, they just need to be convinced by his auditions. They may deliberately choose a relative unknown for it--they tend to be cheaper, after all, than established figures and his popularity in Hong Kong movies won't put butts in seats in the US. Besides, with all the changes due to Way of the Warrior, Chan may get some small breaks in Hong Kong earlier that'd make his resume more impressive than it was at this time OTL--enough that the producers are willing to give him an audition.
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  #2054  
Old November 9th, 2012, 04:26 AM
phx1138 phx1138 is offline
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Now this update has a title that's a little more like it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainbin
Theme from Live and Let Die, written and performed by Stevie Wonder
I don't suppose you considered using Carl Davis?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainbin
Akira Kurosawa ...who had crafted some of the most acclaimed and influential motion pictures ever made, including Rashomon, Ikiru, Seven Samurai, Throne of Blood, The Hidden Fortress, and Yojimbo.
Haven't seen "Ikiru". All the others are excellent. And if you can watch "Yojimbo" & not hear Morricone's theme nor think of Clint, you're more focused than me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainbin
And Robert Altman, though he is a nobody ITTL because his career stalled after M*A*S*H bombed at the box-office.
I don't suppose you'd allow him work in TV, so only real fans of a show, & of the creative team, would ever notice? (I won't miss him; just askin'.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainbin
The Way of the Warrior...Lee plays a full-blooded Chinese-American (as opposed to the “half-Chinese” character played by Carradine), and the show additionally dwells on the plight of what were then known as “Negroes”, many of whom were cowboys (continuing the idea of twisting a hoary genre inside-out). This naturally creates a cross-racial appeal for Lee from the very beginning.
This has me thinking of "Buck & the Preacher" & "Skin Game". Sympathetic treatment of black characters is going to be a revelation to a lot of (white) people. So is even the existence of black wranglers. (It was to me. {BTW, the real ones hate being called "cowboys".})
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainbin
The genre of films inspired by Lee was IOTL described as “Bruceploitation”, largely springing up after his death in 1973, contemporary with his rising popularity ITTL.
And a whole slew of "impersonaters", from Bruce Li to Bruce Lo to (another) Bruce Lee--to Jackie Chan, no less, who caught a break playing a faux Bruce. Might also include Johnny Yune, from "They Call Me Bruce?"

It also gave a lot of room for the likes of Chuck Norris & J-C Van Damme... (And I return to Iron Fist.)

Also, thx for giving Bruce a chance to do serious work. I've always wondered what his *"Kung Fu" would have looked like. This feels right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainbin
Black audiences would also flock to see the film, which featured Billy Dee Williams an American CIA agent, the “Black James Bond”
I suppose "Hit!" goes almost nowhere, too...
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Originally Posted by Brainbin
[Chan] would also serve as a choreographer
Fight gaffer? Really? (I don't suppose he could sub for Aaron Norris...? Hmm... Chuck Norris in "Rumble in the Bronx". {No?})
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainbin
the Carl Douglas song “Kung-Fu Fighting”
Always loved this.
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  #2055  
Old November 9th, 2012, 06:53 PM
unclepatrick unclepatrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e of pi View Post
They don't need to be convinced by some future success, they just need to be convinced by his auditions. They may deliberately choose a relative unknown for it--they tend to be cheaper, after all, than established figures and his popularity in Hong Kong movies won't put butts in seats in the US. Besides, with all the changes due to Way of the Warrior, Chan may get some small breaks in Hong Kong earlier that'd make his resume more impressive than it was at this time OTL--enough that the producers are willing to give him an audition.
Even accepting that Chan has a better career, Why would the Bond Producers let him choreograph the film? Chan not going to have that advance a career. At best we move up his first success one or two years, but he still would be choreographing film till the 1980's.
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  #2056  
Old November 9th, 2012, 07:10 PM
Thande Thande is offline
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Good update, doing a lot of the stuff we predicted would happen.

I always find it odd how 'Oriental' is apparently considered offensive across the water. Of course there 'Asian' is used to mean 'East Asian' by default rather than 'Indians and Pakistanis' so I suppose 'Oriental' more became associated with old-fashioned usage and therefore chauvinism.
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  #2057  
Old November 10th, 2012, 03:00 AM
Brainbin Brainbin is online now
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Thank you all for your replies to my latest update! I'm glad to see that it went over as well as it did. And now, as always, for my responses...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vultan View Post
Nice to see East Asian culture getting a leg-up in the West here! It's enough to make one wonder what's happening with good ol' Godzilla...
Believe it or not, Orientalism has permeated popular culture only slightly more than it did at this stage IOTL - but the critical difference, one that could give it staying power, is the presence of Bruce Lee (who is considered fully "American" ITTL, as opposed to OTL, where he had a foot on each continent).

As for kaiju films, King Kong vs. Godzilla was released before the POD, in 1962. Really, there's nowhere to go but down at this point

Quote:
Originally Posted by vultan
Or what if some Japanese producers decide to follow the prevailing trends in pop culture and we get a hilarious Star Trek rip-off?
Now there is a positively intriguing suggestion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vultan
But speaking of China again, one wonders how the average American's perception of the country would change in the long-term without the normalization of relations with America, and, therefore, economic liberalization.
Or, rather, how it would not change in the long-term. Especially since we now have the anticommunist President in office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vultan
Great installment!
Thank you, vultan!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tizoc View Post
I've been reading this TL for some time, but it's my first comment here. As I don't know much about pop-culture of those times, it'll be about politics:

UN and Taiwan (Republic of China) - there's a mention of ROC no longer in UN Security Council, but nothing is said about it being kicked out of UN altogether. Does it mean TTL there are two Chinas in UN? With US-PRC relations colder it wouldn't be surprising for US to prevent kicking ROC out, I believe.

That said, keep up good work.
Thank you for the compliment, Tizoc, and welcome aboard! Please excuse the ambiguity of my update. The Republic of China was removed from the United Nations altogether ITTL, as IOTL, and not just its Security Council seat. I merely chose to emphasize the latter in order to demonstrate the ascendancy of Red China.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordInsane View Post
If memory serves, a key part of it was the General Assembly redefining the government representing China in the UN as being the PRC. That technically didn't have to go via the Security Council, so it could be done without a veto.
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Originally Posted by stevep View Post
OK thanks. That makes sense, although it does imply that the Security Council could theoretically be by-passed on other issues.
Thanks for helping me out there, LordInsane! Yes, everything about the process IOTL happened ITTL; it was basically inevitable by the time of the POD anyway, ironically enough brought about through decolonization, which was sponsored by the United States in the first place!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCW8 View Post
Stevie Wonder instead of Paul McCartney ? How is McCartney's career progressing ITTL compared to OTL ?
He's still with Wings - the roster of which is somewhat more stable than that of OTL - and Wings is phenomenally successful, just minus one major OTL hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCW8
Given how popular both the Kung Foo tv series and Bruce Lee's films were in OTL, this is probably going to be a big hit in the UK as well. And yes they were another part of popular culture parodied by the Goodies. Be careful, as the episode about the Lancastrian martial art of Ecky Thump has literally caused someone to laugh themselves to death.
This is very likely, though I doubt it would resonate in precisely the same way that it would stateside, with a large and very entrenched Chinese-American population.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclepatrick View Post
Why does the James Bond people chose a young kid who first big hit has not even come out in 1978?
Jackie Chan first big hit in Asia is Snake in the eagle Shadow which was released in 1978 in Hong Kong. He would follow that Up with Drunken Master which was Chan first comedy Kung Fu movie.

It amazing that the Bond producers could see the success Chan would be in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e of pi View Post
They don't need to be convinced by some future success, they just need to be convinced by his auditions. They may deliberately choose a relative unknown for it--they tend to be cheaper, after all, than established figures and his popularity in Hong Kong movies won't put butts in seats in the US. Besides, with all the changes due to Way of the Warrior, Chan may get some small breaks in Hong Kong earlier that'd make his resume more impressive than it was at this time OTL--enough that the producers are willing to give him an audition.
I couldn't have said it any better myself. Thank you, e of pi

Quote:
Originally Posted by phx1138 View Post
Now this update has a title that's a little more like it.
Great song, one of the iconic one-hit wonders, and sadly butterflied ITTL. But meta-fiction will never forget!

Quote:
Originally Posted by phx1138
I don't suppose you'd allow him work in TV, so only real fans of a show, & of the creative team, would ever notice? (I won't miss him; just askin'.)
I'm afraid not; TTL Robert Altman will be going the way of Michael Cimino and Hal Ashby IOTL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phx1138
Also, thx for giving Bruce a chance to do serious work. I've always wondered what his *"Kung Fu" would have looked like. This feels right.
Thank you. Asian-Americans never really had a single, revelatory figure in OTL screen history equivalent to a Poitier, but ITTL, they certainly have a contender

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclepatrick View Post
Even accepting that Chan has a better career, Why would the Bond Producers let him choreograph the film? Chan not going to have that advance a career. At best we move up his first success one or two years, but he still would be choreographing film till the 1980's.
I remind you that the POD for this timeline is 1966, with massive worldwide butterflies taking effect by 1969. That is nearly ten years before the production and release of The Man with the Golden Gun. The entire Hong Kong film industry has been radically changed due to the absence of the man who, IOTL, would become its biggest and most enduring star. This gap allows others to rise in his place. In addition, I noted in the update that Chan choreographs only for the Hong Kong performers (many of whom he would have worked with in some prior capacity); everything else, including all of the Bond-related stunt setpieces, is left to others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thande View Post
Good update, doing a lot of the stuff we predicted would happen.
Thank you, Thande! And it's true: I can't always be dropping bombshells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thande
I always find it odd how 'Oriental' is apparently considered offensive across the water. Of course there 'Asian' is used to mean 'East Asian' by default rather than 'Indians and Pakistanis' so I suppose 'Oriental' more became associated with old-fashioned usage and therefore chauvinism.
"Oriental" is a contentious term in North America rather than an unambiguously offensive one - along the lines of "Dwarf" to refer to those of short stature and "Indian" to describe aboriginal peoples. In the 1970s, of course, that was the catch-all term before it was later supplanted by (as you mention) simply "Asian", which is further subdivided into "East Asian" and "South Asian". I also wonder if it's simply the euphemism treadmill at work, as "Oriental" is indeed a rather antiquated term.

I hope to have my next update ready in just a few more days! Wish me luck, because I'm going to need it
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  #2058  
Old November 10th, 2012, 03:52 AM
LordInsane LordInsane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevep View Post
LordInsane

OK thanks. That makes sense, although it does imply that the Security Council could theoretically be by-passed on other issues.

Steve
Correctly so, actually - it's just that most of the time the big, flashy issues are security/international peace issues and so involves the Security Council (although even then there is the Uniting for Peace resolution). Well, that or people want UN reform (the amendment process requires the consent of all permanent members of the Security Council).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainbin View Post
Thanks for helping me out there, LordInsane! Yes, everything about the process IOTL happened ITTL; it was basically inevitable by the time of the POD anyway, ironically enough brought about through decolonization, which was sponsored by the United States in the first place!
I am glad to be of some small help!
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  #2059  
Old November 10th, 2012, 04:06 AM
Orville_third Orville_third is offline
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Loved the Bond and Hollywood changes. Could Carradine's fate be different ITTL?
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  #2060  
Old November 10th, 2012, 05:04 PM
Unknown Unknown is offline
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At least this TL avoids the curse of Bruce Lee (he died in 1973, butterflies in TTL take care of that), and his son Brandon's death in 1993 on The Crow.

Bruce Lee lives. Yippee!!!
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