That Wacky Redhead

[Glen]

While I don't see the Doctor Who impact as inevitable, I certainly see it as a fun and plausible result of the changes ITTL - my God, with the lead-in to Laugh In as their timeslot, I have no doubt that the good Doctor will implant himself in the consciousness of the youth of this nation perhaps as firmly as Star Trek! Damn better America where everyone remembers Doctor Who with nostalgia rather than the Brady Bunch (sorry those who love the Brady Bunch).

A Doctor Who Star Trek crossover certainly has been contemplated (and even done in the comics) IOTL. Should be - interesting....

Love how you got the Queen of Reruns to save vintage Doctor Who, by the way!

[Falkenburg]

Bravo Brainbin!

Not only saving the heritage of The Doctor but potentially saving him from the future problems of diminishing returns.

The only possible fly in the ointment could well be that greater success and revenues might alter future casting decisions.

An intriguing dilemma.
Higher production values and greater prestige at the cost of idiosyncracies and innovation.
A tough choice.

On the subject of a Crossover Companion, there can be only one possible choice. Lt. Uhura!

Seasons Greetings and appreciative thanks for your work.

Falkenburg

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Falkenburg, great minds think alike on the Doctor's companion.

I saw one arc of his once in college, it was showing in the late evening in our dorm. I enjoyed it. I know they had others, too, but I only remember one with the Daleks for sure.

[Glen]

One warning is that series eight of Doctor Who sees the introduction of the Master. Keeping him as part of the crossover is awesome. Loosing him would be catastrophic.

[anon_user]

Originally Posted by Glen

One warning is that series eight of Doctor Who sees the introduction of the Master. Keeping him as part of the crossover is awesome. Loosing him would be catastrophic.

Perhaps he could be the 'mirror Doctor'? Incidentally, did TOS (or TAS) ever consider going back to the mirror universe?

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Falkenburg

An intriguing dilemma.
Higher production values and greater prestige at the cost of idiosyncracies and innovation.
A tough choice.

This is British TV, never afraid of odd casting choices. Where else would Jimmy Nail have become a star? Where else would they've cast Helen Mirren as DCI Tennison? As opposed to, say, Angelina Jolie?

Fair warning, tho: aside praise for rescuing the history (destruction of which appalls me for anything much short of "Gilligan's Island"), I have no comment on The Doc. Not a fan.

[krinsbez]

First off, I've been loving this crossover; prior to hearing about this I've been studiously sticking to ASB.

Second, I DEMAND a detailed summary of the abovementioned backdoor pilot!

[Glen]

It seems likely that Robert Holmes and Barry Lett would be involved in the production from the Doctor Who side. The Master really is likely to be introduced in the crossover, and probably his machinations could be used as some of the impetous for the crossover to happen. We might see the Time Lords send the Doctor to the time/place of the Enterprise to deal with the Master.

One of the most vital questions to answer would be, would the Doctor and/or the Enterprise be thrown into an alternate universe (one to the other) to encounter each other, or will the crossover establish that, ITTL, the universes of Doctor Who and Star Trek are the same universe?

If they go same universe, then the two most difficult points of canon to reconcile will be the Dalek Invasion of Earth and the presence of the Cybermen. On the other hand, they didn't try real hard in either show to reconcile historical points, and as we are still relatively early in the development of both universes, it could simply be ignored by the writers of the time, and later writers would deal with it.

[Brainbin]

Merry Christmas everyone! I've made a list - of all the comments made on this thread - and I'm checking it twice, and now I'll share my responses, which you may find naughty or nice. But I can promise that there won't be any lumps of coal!

Originally Posted by Glen

UFO: 1999 is likely made ITTL.

I've already been asked to earmark its predecessor series. It does look like a little nudge is all it needs to become a reality.

Originally Posted by Kaiphranos

Thank you! Though I'm afraid in most cases I'm more familiar with the stories themselves than the people who were writing them...

Fair enough. But only being familiar with them is still valuable to me, because (if I'm doing my job right) you can judge for yourself which of the stories would best fit in the culture of TTL; those aren't necessarily the ones that you like the most, of course

Originally Posted by Kaiphranos

As far as written stories go, there's Poul Anderson's Technic History stories which were being written at about this time. These are split into two basic eras, the first a sort of Hanseatic League and the second more like James Bond IN SPACE!) Either one might make a reasonable premise for someone trying to piggyback off of Star Trek, but I'm not sure if Anderson would be much interested in adapting his work for television.

Well, as I'm sure you know, IOTL, the James Bond franchise itself went the IN SPACE! direction with Moonraker. That does sound like it would be tremendously appealing. As for Anderson - unless he's a Bill Watterson type, I don't think he would refuse a big pile of cash.

Originally Posted by ChucK Y

Television and film have often lagged a generation behind print in the stories and themes that are used. I suggest you look toward the science fiction of the 30's and 40's for possibilities for TV series adaptation.

Ah, so there's more to you than just knowing your Beatles songs! Knowing about the lag is very informative and helpful, so thank you.

Originally Posted by ChucK Y

These are the ones I can think of that might be adapted to a TV series. There are many other excellent stories that would not translate well in my opinion, or that I would shudder to think how they would be "adapted".

So you're holding out on me! Remember, this timeline isn't a utopia, however much it may seem to be at the moment for some of you If executives find a "marketable" idea, they will try to take hold of it, and then they will buy it out from the original author, who, however refined and principled he may seem, will almost certainly yield to the almighty dollar.

Originally Posted by Glen

It is possible that Glen A. Larson successfully pitches a sci-fi story for development after Star Trek goes off. Could see in the early seventies his 'Adam's Ark' come to the screen, though hopefully he will again be convinced to change the name (as IOTL this eventually morphed into Battlestar Galactica). Note that he apparently consulted Gene Coon for advice - might be interesting, that. Don't know which studio would pick it up, but I think it is a definite possibility.

He consulted Gene Coon, did he? Well obviously I'm going to have to do something with that.

Originally Posted by Glen

Before we look at books that could be converted, we should first see who was around pitching what at that time that might be green-lighted into production this time/earlier given the greater success of Star Trek and the change in the public mood.

Excellent point. Given the incredible response to my query, it looks like I'll be doing an entire post about science-fiction series of the Moonshot Lunacy period IOTL, and I'll be sure to talk about pitches.

Originally Posted by Glen

This is an interesting list of Sci-Fi series from the 1970s, and may provide some ideas. I have to say, I had never heard of the TV show Quark before this - it looks funny.

That's an excellent list; thank you very much for the link!

Originally Posted by Glen

It is possible that someone could buy the rights to Dune a bit earlier ITTL, and that we might actually see it produced as a movie in the early to mid seventies - and even possibly continued as a series, though that is questionable.

An obvious possibility. Apparently Frank Herbert was actually a fan of the OTL David Lynch film, for whatever that's worth - so if a proper adaptation is made during his lifetime, I think it's fair to say he'll be game for anything.

Originally Posted by DTF955Baseballfan

Phew, had to skim over some of the last few pages because there's so much. This is an amazing TL.

Thank you very much And welcome aboard!

Originally Posted by DTF955Baseballfan

I think you could still get a M*A*S*H that's just the comedy; medical stuff was going to become popular anyway with shows like Emergency! Of course, you might just end up with something similar to "House Calls."

The thing about "M*A*S*H" IOTL is that it was basically a dramedy from the beginning - there was never any canned laughter in the operating room scenes, and the first "serious" episode was all the way back in Season 1 ("Sometimes You Hear The Bullet"). Medical shows were popular in the early 1970s, yes, but they were primarily dramas: for example, "Marcus Welby, M.D.", was the #1 show of 1970-71. I realize that "M*A*S*H" has a lot of devotees, but it's not going to happen ITTL, and I'm afraid you'll just have to accept my reasoning.

Originally Posted by DTF955Baseballfan

You say how writers love irony - how about if Fred Rogers' famous speech of TTL is not about sving public TV but about saving child actors/actresses? Suppose the actress who played Buffy ws saved byt sucha speech - irony enough for you? And sincer Betty Ford probably won't hve the famous clinic named after her, what if that actress does? I think it could work if you could figure out a way to make it happen; but as you said it's not certain you cuold figure out a way.

You're now the second person to have asked me to save Anissa Jones (the actress in question). And as I said previously, she really had a hard-knock life, even notwithstanding being forced to play a little girl on "Family Affair". Given that she overdosed at age 18, it may already be too late for her, unfortunately As for Betty Ford, she does have some social standing ITTL - her husband is the Minority Leader of the House of Representatives. Granted, she's not as visible as the First Lady, but she does have a voice.

Originally Posted by DTF955Baseballfan

With no "Brady Bunch" who would be the one to start family sitcoms with actual families becoming popular? An early Bill Cosby work? Lucille Ball *did* like sitcoms, after all. Though I wont' have time to read a lot or perhaps reply to your replies, I love to see family friendly shows and especially sitcoms.

There actually is another such show that aired in both OTL and TTL that became popular (higher ratings than "The Brady Bunch" IOTL), and is often remembered alongside it. "Hello world, here's a song that we're singing ~ Come on, get happy!"

Originally Posted by DTF955Baseballfan

Come to think of it, if Alan Alda's not working on M*A*S*H, I coudl see *him* as a wisecracking dad in a sitcom.

Especially since the 1970s are the decade of politically conscious sitcoms, as we'll soon discover.

Originally Posted by DTF955Baseballfan

Can you do something so "Hogan's Heroes" at least has a proper ending? Like a movie where they liberate the camp? WIth John Banner dying in '73, maybe even an idea where Schultz in the beginning (if it's a '73-4 movie) sacrifices himself for the Allied cause?

I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

Originally Posted by Mal-3

Lots of choices! Perhaps the BBC sees a larger market for scifi and decides to ship more Dr. Who to the states, thereby preserving some of the more famous lost episodes? That particular incident happens in the mid/late 70s IIRC...

Great minds think alike, Mal

Thanks for your other suggestions, too. This diversity of opinions helps me to make choices, by looking for areas of agreement.

Originally Posted by Falkenburg

An American version of the Tomorrow People could play well to a young audience but might not convince sceptical Executives.

I've heard of that show - it was described to me as making Doctor Who look lavish by comparison

Originally Posted by Falkenburg

However, if the experienced writing and effects teams coming out of Star Trek could be switched onto the new show.

I'm developing some ideas for them, don't you worry about that.

Originally Posted by Falkenburg

There's an intriguing problem with resolving, plausibly, how the idea gets brought to Desilu/TWRs' attention.
(Watch how I, oh so subtly, crowbar this next reference in )

Perhaps an envoy of Desilu is in the UK following up on interest in The Muppet idea. (Skol! )

I hope you took two shots there, since you said the "i" word in the previous paragraph. (Deliberately, I'm sure, Mr. Almost-Entirely-Teetotal ) On a serious note, you should know that people behind The Muppets pitched the show to everyone under the sun in the United States first; Lew Grade was their last-ditch effort to get some kind of a show going somewhere. Desilu would certainly know about them long before they would get to that point ITTL, making the rest of your point moot, I'm afraid.

But thank you for the rest of your suggestions. And glad to see you're still reading along

Originally Posted by phx1138

Some of the above suggestions could be adapted to series TV. Better options?

Wow Those are an awful lot of links. Thank you for doing so much of the legwork for me!

Originally Posted by phx1138

I'd forgotten them... Handled well, they could be good. Or they could end up in the hands of Irwin Allen... I left off mention Buck Rogers, because I've never seen it done well.

I never promised you a rose garden. You're going to have to take the good with the bad, I'm afraid. There will be terrible adaptations of some works - if only because of Sturgeon's Law, not to mention the plethora of examples IOTL. (Besides, Buck Rogers has been done well. Duck Dodgers in the 24&1/2th Century, anyone? Yes, parody still counts.)

Originally Posted by phx1138

That reminds me: Hollywood has a Thing about doing any SF remotely current. The themes tend to be at least 20yr behind where print SF is. If that changes, anything derived from even '50s SF TTL would be a revelation.

The thing is, executives are going to want premises with positive, optimistic tones (similar to Star Trek, and reflective of the public mood ITTL). Anything which cuts against that grain is far less likely to be picked up.

Originally Posted by phx1138

Aside "Night Gallery", which has a more horrific bent... (OTL "Outer Limits" went off the air in '65...) What about a twist? The "Mytery Movie" format with SF stories.

Serling's series is definitely going to focus more on the macabre, as it did IOTL, though he may well sneak in some "straight" science fiction if the mood strikes him. Your idea is also a very sound one.

Originally Posted by phx1138

Which reminds me of something else. Does the early end to the "V" butterfly "The Stunt Man"? IMO, this was one of O'Toole's best roles.

Sorry, that's too far ahead for me to answer right now with any kind of certainty.

Originally Posted by phx1138

Prosit.

In vino veritas

Originally Posted by Evermourn

Love it.

Thank you, Evermourn, and welcome aboard!

Originally Posted by Evermourn

PLEASE don't butterfly away Tom Baker's Dr Who, although I suspect that will be the result.

It's too early right now to say - first we'll have to see how this will affect the length of Pertwee's tenure. That said, ITTL, the Third Doctor is going to become the Doctor to American audiences, rather than the Fourth Doctor as IOTL. So from that perspective, it really doesn't matter who replaces Pertwee. Though it may still be Baker. Then again, it might be an American

Originally Posted by Evermourn

I think Jon Pertwee's doctor would clash with Kirk at first, not a great personality mix.

Well, Kirk doesn't like mysteries. They give him a bellyache, and he'll have a beauty right after he meets the Doctor.

Originally Posted by Evermourn

Any chance the Doctor picks up a new companion from the crew of the Enterprise? Would be a nice touch to have a nod to the departing show in the new one.

That's a cute idea, but I don't know. Why would any of the crew of the Enterprise want to explore they universe with a mysterious stranger when they already do that for a living, with all their friends aboard, and loved ones never more than a subspace radio hail away?

Originally Posted by Barbarossa Rotbart

Perhaps TTL can give us a second season of Raumpatrouille – Die phantastischen Abenteuer des Raumschiffes Orion?

A (West) German show? Which already ended before butterflies from the POD could even reach Europe? Doubtful, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by Glen

While I don't see the Doctor Who impact as inevitable, I certainly see it as a fun and plausible result of the changes ITTL

Thank you, Glen, that was precisely my intention

Originally Posted by Glen

my God, with the lead-in to Laugh In as their timeslot, I have no doubt that the good Doctor will implant himself in the consciousness of the youth of this nation perhaps as firmly as Star Trek!

I'm not sure about that - but I do definitely see something of a Beatles vs. Elvis situation developing vis-à-vis the two programs ITTL; one of those situations where everybody wins. (Well, except for Elvis. And the Beatles. But it's not a perfect comparison.)

Originally Posted by Glen

Damn better America where everyone remembers Doctor Who with nostalgia rather than the Brady Bunch (sorry those who love the Brady Bunch).

Don't worry; I don't think any of them are reading this TL. Otherwise I think I would have heard from them by now...

Originally Posted by Glen

A Doctor Who Star Trek crossover certainly has been contemplated (and even done in the comics) IOTL. Should be - interesting....

And, IOTL, there were tentative plans for one between the modern incarnation of Doctor Who and the most recent Star Trek series, before the latter was cancelled. I'm not sure how that would have developed; sounds like an interesting idea for a timeline!

Originally Posted by Glen

Love how you got the Queen of Reruns to save vintage Doctor Who, by the way!

I thought that was an appropriate touch. Look at all the good That Wacky Redhead can do!

Originally Posted by Falkenburg

Bravo Brainbin!

Thank you, thank you

Originally Posted by Falkenburg

An intriguing dilemma.
Higher production values and greater prestige at the cost of idiosyncracies and innovation.
A tough choice.

Yes, and very similar to the one that faced Star Trek ITTL. (Also, I hope you're not planning on driving. )

Originally Posted by Falkenburg

On the subject of a Crossover Companion, there can be only one possible choice.

She certainly fits the stereotype of a comely young woman, doesn't she?

Originally Posted by Falkenburg

Seasons Greetings and appreciative thanks for your work.

All the same to you, and thank you for reading, and your many wonderful comments!

Originally Posted by DTF955Baseballfan

Falkenburg, great minds think alike on the Doctor's companion.

I wonder if it's the miniskirt

Originally Posted by Glen

One warning is that series eight of Doctor Who sees the introduction of the Master. Keeping him as part of the crossover is awesome. Loosing him would be catastrophic.

Yes, I am aware that the crossover arc is replacing the OTL introduction of the Master arc. We'll have to see how the writers deal with it.

Originally Posted by anon_user

Perhaps he could be the 'mirror Doctor'? Incidentally, did TOS (or TAS) ever consider going back to the mirror universe?

Another intriguing suggestion. As far as I know, no they didn't; it took the later generation of writers to come up with that idea. (Though, as with "Space Seed", there's obvious sequel potential there.)

Originally Posted by phx1138

Fair warning, tho: aside praise for rescuing the history (destruction of which appalls me for anything much short of "Gilligan's Island"), I have no comment on The Doc. Not a fan.

Really? Colour me surprised. (I'm not a fan either, actually. But I just couldn't resist.)

Originally Posted by krinsbez

First off, I've been loving this crossover; prior to hearing about this I've been studiously sticking to ASB.

Thank you very much for that compliment I know how segregated the ASB section is from the rest of this forum (or at least, that's what I've heard, having never been there myself). I'm flattered that I'm the one who lured you over. I hope you continue to enjoy my TL!

Originally Posted by krinsbez

Second, I DEMAND a detailed summary of the abovementioned backdoor pilot!

I wouldn't dream of taking so long to build up to this and then not elaborate on it, don't worry about that.

Originally Posted by Glen

It seems likely that Robert Holmes and Barry Lett would be involved in the production from the Doctor Who side. The Master really is likely to be introduced in the crossover, and probably his machinations could be used as some of the impetous for the crossover to happen. We might see the Time Lords send the Doctor to the time/place of the Enterprise to deal with the Master.

One of the most vital questions to answer would be, would the Doctor and/or the Enterprise be thrown into an alternate universe (one to the other) to encounter each other, or will the crossover establish that, ITTL, the universes of Doctor Who and Star Trek are the same universe?

If they go same universe, then the two most difficult points of canon to reconcile will be the Dalek Invasion of Earth and the presence of the Cybermen. On the other hand, they didn't try real hard in either show to reconcile historical points, and as we are still relatively early in the development of both universes, it could simply be ignored by the writers of the time, and later writers would deal with it.

You're asking all the right questions, and making a lot of very logical hypotheses. So, naturally, I won't confirm or deny anything.

Thank you to everyone for your incredible comments! I can't believe I've made it to 10 pages already, even though, in the grand scheme of things, this timeline is really just getting started! The "coming attractions" post, outlining my plans for the next few updates, should be ready either today or tomorrow. I wish you all the very best of the season! Eat, drink, and be merry!

[Evermourn]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

That's a cute idea, but I don't know. Why would any of the crew of the Enterprise want to explore they universe with a mysterious stranger when they already do that for a living, with all their friends aboard, and loved ones never more than a subspace radio hail away?

Fair point. Maybe someone without many family ties, intrigued by the time travel aspect (or wanting to research it?). Or even someone sent by the Federation as a spy, after all the Doctor claims to come from a culture where time travel is commonplace, and he interferes with history all the time. That's going to be a priority to investigate.

[Space Oddity]

You know, most people may be mourning the premature death of M*A*S*H the series--but I'm just sad that McCabe and Mrs. Miller is never going to be made ITTL...

[ChucK Y]

I imagine that studio executives wanting to jump on the Star Trek bandwagon will want to play "safe" with near-clone programs. Smith's Galactic Patrol, Asimov's Foundation, Heinlein's Space Cadet, or Anderson's Polesotechnic League could fill this niche, with the advantage of prior publication to Star Trek to counter charges of just being a copycat.

Perhaps one of them will try to break the Star Trek mold of human-with-makeup aliens to gain a competitive advantage. It is too early for computer generated imagery, and stop motion animation is too slow and expensive. Perhaps Muppet-like puppetry would be tried.

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

A (West) German show? Which already ended before butterflies from the POD could even reach Europe? Doubtful, I'm afraid.

I know, I know. But if SF shows are4 much more common than in OTL, then it could be possible that the ARD revives the show.

[Orville_third]

Originally Posted by ChucK Y

I imagine that studio executives wanting to jump on the Star Trek bandwagon will want to play "safe" with near-clone programs. Smith's Galactic Patrol, Asimov's Foundation, Heinlein's Space Cadet, or Anderson's Polesotechnic League could fill this niche, with the advantage of prior publication to Star Trek to counter charges of just being a copycat.

Perhaps one of them will try to break the Star Trek mold of human-with-makeup aliens to gain a competitive advantage. It is too early for computer generated imagery, and stop motion animation is too slow and expensive. Perhaps Muppet-like puppetry would be tried.

Indeed...Muppets might be a good bet for future aliens...

Also, one wonders if this will lead Terry Nation to continue with BBC work beyond when he stopped OTL. (It should be noted that he worked on MacGuyver...)

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I've already been asked to earmark its predecessor series. It does look like a little nudge is all it needs to become a reality.

Without knowing more than I do about the genesis of the show (which is next to nothing), I hesitate to say, but IMO you could go a bit more optimistic in tone than the "invasion scare" approach of "UFO" OTL. How much of that was driven by fears of nuclear war & Sov infiltration & revelations about Philby & Co., IDK; that sort of thing was a quite strong influence on the '50s monster movies ("Body Snatchers" & "Puppet Masters" & "Day the Earth Stood Still" are pretty clearly influenced, & I'd say the OTL '53 "War of the Worlds", too.)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Remember, this timeline isn't a utopia, however much it may seem to be at the moment for some of you

Noted. If that means, frex, "Man From Atlantis" still gets made (& cancelled in Season 1), I could live with it, if it also means, frex, "Airwolf" was a bit less absurd.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

He consulted Gene Coon, did he? Well obviously I'm going to have to do something with that.

If you do nothing but make sure that ship design gets adopted somewhere, you've got my vote. (Galactica was even cooler than the D-7.)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

often remembered alongside it. "Hello world, here's a song that we're singing ~ Come on, get happy!"

Trivia fact: did you know Banshee was named Sean Cassidy? Named before the show went to air....

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Especially since the 1970s are the decade of politically conscious sitcoms, as we'll soon discover.

I'm sure we can all name at least one not "MASH". I could live with Alda not being anything like so big a star, what with "MASH" turning into "The Alan Alda Show"...

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I've heard of that show

I hadn't, tho apparently somebody else had. I can't help think it resembles X-Men, or "Heroes"... (Not to say that's necessarily a bad thing. "Heroes" was really faux Xmen {not a typo}, but better handled than I expected.)

Which has me wondering: can you get a good adaptation of a comics character in this era in the face of the campy "Batman"?

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Wow Those are an awful lot of links. Thank you for doing so much of the legwork for me!

Those were the easy, obvious ones. I also rejected Space Cadet & Starship Troopers as contrary to the national mood, & the likes of Duelling Machine as a bit beyond the SPFX state of the art. Maybe in the late '70s... I should also offer a health warning: I liked all of them, which makes their chances of commercial success depressingly small. (Cult hits like "Buffy" at best. Tho "Smallville" managed to go 10 years, somehow. Don't ask me how.)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I never promised you a rose garden. You're going to have to take the good with the bad, I'm afraid. There will be terrible adaptations of some works - if only because of Sturgeon's Law, not to mention the plethora of examples IOTL. (Besides, Buck Rogers has been done well. Duck Dodgers in the 24&1/2th Century, anyone? Yes, parody still counts.)

I confess never having watched any of the "Duck Dodgers" in their entirety. Nor do I expect all the suggested shows be smash hits. If some should replace other low-rated shows & never get out of the Bottom 50, but go more than their OTL duration, I'd like it. If they don't, so be it. What I think you'll find is, cultural changes will open timeslots. Frex, "Tour of Duty" is less likely to get made.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

The thing is, executives are going to want premises with positive, optimistic tones (similar to Star Trek, and reflective of the public mood ITTL). Anything which cuts against that grain is far less likely to be picked up.

Oh, I don't mean anything with the paranoid '50s themes. I meant in terms of...approach. '30s & '40s was full of space opera which wouldn't look out of place in "Star Wars". That's why I say Doc Smith is likely. Adapting I Will Fear No Evil would give studio suits a stroke, cause riots in the aisles, & draw calls for a boycott from Catholic & Protestant pulpits everywhere not in New York City or Los Angeles. Even "Soylent Green" was pushing the edges. "Logan's Run" in 1970 would be, too, IMO. "Safe" SF of the '50s, put on film by a high-caliber team like Gene R's, would be like nothing any non-SF buff had ever seen before. Picture a "2001" that actually made sense. Or "Silent Running" where the screenwriter isn't a nitwit.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Serling's series is definitely going to focus more on the macabre, as it did IOTL, though he may well sneak in some "straight" science fiction if the mood strikes him.

I had that in mind, rather than trying to move him away from a perfectly good approach, & one I liked a lot.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Your idea is also a very sound one.

TY.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Sorry, that's too far ahead for me to answer right now with any kind of certainty.

Just something to consider. It's also possible it could be more directly critical of the "V", or of Hollywood. (I've never been able to confirm it, but I'd bet every clip of Eli's "epic" is a lift from a real film made the year before "The Stunt Man" was set... Make that explicit...?)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Then again, it might be an American

No, I'm sorry, that's a bit like casting an American as Bond. (Nor do I feature Vincent Price as The Doctor. Tho I wouldn't object to Gordon Jackson, except it would probably screw up this. Dare I suggest Patrick, seeing "TNG" is, at best, well in the future TTL?)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Really? Colour me surprised.

Needless to say, I've heard of him. Brit SF has never appealed to me much, after "Cap Scarlet" & "Thunderbirds" & "UFO". I liked "1999" more for the setting than the stories (already with hopes of doing my own stuff someday...), plus the fact bad SF beat no SF.

[Brainbin]

Since there are a few more comments, I'll provide a few more responses!

Originally Posted by Evermourn

Or even someone sent by the Federation as a spy, after all the Doctor claims to come from a culture where time travel is commonplace, and he interferes with history all the time. That's going to be a priority to investigate.

An ambassador from the Federation? That's much more plausible. We've certainly seen it on the series itself (Bailey from "The Corbomite Maneuver"). In this case, it would likely be a nobody; that way, the writers aren't beholden to a previous characterization or backstory.

Originally Posted by Space Oddity

You know, most people may be mourning the premature death of M*A*S*H the series--but I'm just sad that McCabe and Mrs. Miller is never going to be made ITTL...

Are you a Robert Altman fan in general, or just of that specific film? Because the interesting thing about Altman IOTL is that he was one of the few New Hollywood directors who staged a more-or-less complete recovery from his inevitable career downturn in the Blockbuster Age. For that reason, I'm reluctant to write him off entirely ITTL, but it would still be one heck of an uphill climb.

Originally Posted by ChucK Y

I imagine that studio executives wanting to jump on the Star Trek bandwagon will want to play "safe" with near-clone programs. Smith's Galactic Patrol, Asimov's Foundation, Heinlein's Space Cadet, or Anderson's Polesotechnic League could fill this niche, with the advantage of prior publication to Star Trek to counter charges of just being a copycat.

Now you're getting into an executive's frame of mind. These are all excellent suggestions (some of which have been made before, which makes them even better), and I love that justification. It sounds just like something they would actually say.

Originally Posted by ChucK Y

Perhaps one of them will try to break the Star Trek mold of human-with-makeup aliens to gain a competitive advantage. It is too early for computer generated imagery, and stop motion animation is too slow and expensive. Perhaps Muppet-like puppetry would be tried.

Well, to be fair to Star Trek, it did occasionally break away from shoe polish and prosthetic ears. Full-body costumes were fairly common, courtesy of this individual, as were full masks (the Tholians) and simple props (the Tribbles). ITTL, Star Trek is making tentative steps into puppetry, as the sehlat from "Yesteryear" was deemed too large and complex to be portrayed by one man, even in a full-body costume.

Originally Posted by Barbarossa Rotbart

I know, I know. But if SF shows are4 much more common than in OTL, then it could be possible that the ARD revives the show.

From what it seems, the show was prohibitively expensive, and it would probably just be easier for the network to commission a new, cheaper program - especially as the original will have been off the air for a number of years. But I'll be perfectly honest, here - this is going to be an Anglosphere-centred timeline. I don't know nearly enough about foreign-language shows, and all the best material for researching them is in a language that I can't understand (French excepted). If you're interested in a Germanocentric side story set in TTL, then you're more than welcome to write one. Just let me know and we'll hammer everything out first.

Originally Posted by Orville_third

Indeed...Muppets might be a good bet for future aliens...

Certainly it would make an invaluable stepping stone for Jim Henson and his crew on the road to legitimizing them as "adult" entertainment.

Originally Posted by Orville_third

Also, one wonders if this will lead Terry Nation to continue with BBC work beyond when he stopped OTL. (It should be noted that he worked on MacGuyver...)

He did eventually return to the BBC and to Doctor Who IOTL (in 1973), and I see no reason why that wouldn't happen ITTL as well.

Originally Posted by phx1138

I hesitate to say, but IMO you could go a bit more optimistic in tone than the "invasion scare" approach of "UFO" OTL.

I'm actually willing to keep British science fiction more cynical and pessimistic, because Britain in the 1970s will not bask in the same glow of renewed optimism that affected the United States ITTL. (Though they'll still be able to see it across the pond )

Originally Posted by phx1138

Noted. If that means, frex, "Man From Atlantis" still gets made (& cancelled in Season 1), I could live with it, if it also means, frex, "Airwolf" was a bit less absurd.

I'll take your "compromise" suggestions into consideration.

Originally Posted by phx1138

If you do nothing but make sure that ship design gets adopted somewhere, you've got my vote. (Galactica was even cooler than the D-7.)

I think it's safe to say that Battlestar Galactica (which, even IOTL, was the #3 science fiction franchise of the 1970s, even if it was something of an RC Cola vs. Coke and Pepsi situation) will be existing in some form ITTL.

Originally Posted by phx1138

Trivia fact: did you know Banshee was named Sean Cassidy? Named before the show went to air...

That's an interesting coincidence, although I don't think "The Partridge Family" would affect the comic a great deal, as the lead actor's name was David Cassidy (His younger brother Shaun would not hit it big until 1977 IOTL.)

Originally Posted by phx1138

I'm sure we can all name at least one not "MASH".

One that we'll be hearing about in greater detail shortly.

Originally Posted by phx1138

I could live with Alda not being anything like so big a star, what with "MASH" turning into "The Alan Alda Show"...

You and me both. I have absolutely no regrets eliminating his shot at stardom.

Originally Posted by phx1138

Which has me wondering: can you get a good adaptation of a comics character in this era in the face of the campy "Batman"?

From what I understand, the animated "Spider-Man" series on the air at this time actually started out as relatively faithful to the original comics. It was hampered by the cheap animation (par for the course in this era), which only got worse after the inexplicably celebrated Ralph Bakshi took over the production. So I imagine it's theoretically possible.

Originally Posted by phx1138

I liked all of them, which makes their chances of commercial success depressingly small.

I'm lucky in that respect. I never watch shows until they're in syndication, unless they're certifiable hits in no danger of cancellation.

Originally Posted by phx1138

What I think you'll find is, cultural changes will open timeslots.

That's the idea

Originally Posted by phx1138

'30s & '40s was full of space opera which wouldn't look out of place in "Star Wars".

Those serials were George Lucas' childhood!

Originally Posted by phx1138

"Safe" SF of the '50s, put on film by a high-caliber team like Gene R's, would be like nothing any non-SF buff had ever seen before. Picture a "2001" that actually made sense. Or "Silent Running" where the screenwriter isn't a nitwit.

Now I think you're getting the picture. I think everyone is. And now I'll have to go through everything and find what fits my timeline best.

Originally Posted by phx1138

No, I'm sorry, that's a bit like casting an American as Bond.

Remember, we came perilously close to an American Bond IOTL. (And indeed, only two of the six "official" Bonds have been English, though five were from the British Isles.) I suspect that even idle speculation of an American Doctor would throw the British media into an uproar. It was just a little bit of mischievous postulation...

Originally Posted by phx1138

Dare I suggest Patrick, seeing "TNG" is, at best, well in the future TTL?)

Patrick Stewart going onto the very show he warned Lalla Ward against IOTL... well, you can't get much more ironic than that!

Originally Posted by phx1138

SF has never appealed to me much, after "Cap Scarlet" & "Thunderbirds" & "UFO". I liked "1999" more for the setting than the stories (already with hopes of doing my own stuff someday...), plus the fact bad SF beat no SF.

That's an interesting perspective you're taking. I don't know if I share it. Something you love, being warped beyond recognition, rather than having only your memories of the old stuff? Being a Star Trek fan, and looking at the franchise's course the last decade or so OTL, you've experienced both extremes (so the prevailing opinion tells me), and I guess you can say which one you would rather have.

The Coming Attractions post should be ready tonight. It's like waiting to see a movie trailer - people actually do that, too!

[Glen]

Your timing for the end of the original Star Trek is impeccable in that the 7:30 pm time is about to go away under the Prime Time Access Rule, unless the political changes in the timeline have somehow altered this. Note that since Doctor Who is in half-hour installments, it still fits just fine at the 8 pm timeslot for a lead-in for Laugh-In at your 8:30 pm timeslot.

[Brainbin]

The "present date" is April 15, 1971 (a Thursday). In Hollywood, the 43rd Academy Awards ceremony is underway.

Elsewhere in Tinseltown, Desilu Productions has four series on the air: Star Trek, "Mission: Impossible", "Mannix", and "Night Gallery". In addition, they hold the syndication rights to numerous past series, including "The Untouchables" and "The Lucy Show", as well as the British series, Doctor Who, as the result of negotiations held with the BBC in order to provide the show with revenues from the United States. The studio next door, Paramount, which leases surplus production space from Desilu, also has four series on the air: "Barefoot in the Park", "Room 222", "The Odd Couple", and "The Mary Tyler Moore Show". In societal news, Moonshot Lunacy is in full swing, as was Alan Shepard's golf club during the Apollo 14 mission. The mainstream popularity of science fiction as a genre is at an all-time high, with many such television series and films in development. However, it isn't the only game in town. The film industry is undergoing dramatic changes, with a whole new generation of filmmakers taking inspiration from foreign creative movements, and asserting unprecedented control over their projects. The television industry, though still kept under the auspices of a strict hierarchy, is producing challenging social commentary, moving away from fantasy and slapstick to focus on realistic, character-driven programming.

So, what can we expect next, and all on account of that wacky redhead?

We'll be taking our usual general overview of the next production and broadcast season: 1970-71.

There will be one more production appendix, this time for the fifth (and last) season of Star Trek.

We'll have an in-depth look at the production, broadcast, and reception of the landmark crossover between Star Trek and Doctor Who.

Our exploration of pop culture will continue with the science fiction programming on-air and in development during the early 1970s.

We'll tackle the long and incredibly convoluted development history of an incredibly important and influential sitcom, in its early years.

And, finally, we'll be delivering a eulogy to classic television...

All this and more, coming up on... That Wacky Redhead!

Thank you everyone for reading, and for your many wonderful comments! You can expect the first of these updates in the next few days.

[Glen]

Eulogy to Classic Television, eh....I suspect we'll also be seeing the 'rural purge' ITTL as well.

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

An ambassador from the Federation? That's much more plausible. We've certainly seen it on the series itself (Bailey from "The Corbomite Maneuver"). In this case, it would likely be a nobody; that way, the writers aren't beholden to a previous characterization or backstory.

Doesn't that run afoul of "City"? I always imagined there'd be a permanent research station established on the Gate's world. (Hmm... How old is Richard Dean Anderson?) That being true, sending somebody with The Doctor would be a bit unnecessary. It might also run afoul of the Prime Directive.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I'm actually willing to keep British science fiction more cynical and pessimistic, because Britain in the 1970s will not bask in the same glow of renewed optimism that affected the United States ITTL. (Though they'll still be able to see it across the pond )

Fair enough, seeing you've got good reason not to change it.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I'll take your "compromise" suggestions into consideration.

TY. I'll leave which make it in your capable hands, since you know better which fit your plans.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I think it's safe to say that Battlestar Galactica (which, even IOTL, was the #3 science fiction franchise of the 1970s, even if it was something of an RC Cola vs. Coke and Pepsi situation) will be existing in some form ITTL.

"Galactica" the show had its flaws, prime among them making Earth & humans more important than I thought we deserved, & the usual bad "space fighters" (treated like they were in atmosphere), but nothing that couldn't be cured by a little more awareness by the producers & writers.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

That's an interesting coincidence, although I don't think "The Partridge Family" would affect the comic a great deal, as the lead actor's name was David Cassidy (His younger brother Shaun would not hit it big until 1977 IOTL.)

No, it just struck me an odd coincidence (especially if you know the comics character is a fan of country music), & for some reason always I always think Shaun was on the show...

Originally Posted by Brainbin

One that we'll be hearing about in greater detail shortly.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

You and me both. I have absolutely no regrets eliminating his shot at stardom.

Not a bad guy, & not a terrible actor, but way more ego than one person needs.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

From what I understand, the animated "Spider-Man" series on the air at this time actually started out as relatively faithful to the original comics. It was hampered by the cheap animation (par for the course in this era), which only got worse after the inexplicably celebrated Ralph Bakshi took over the production. So I imagine it's theoretically possible.

You mean the one voiced by Paul Soles? Actually, I had in mind live action adaptations treated as like "X-Men" was lately, or "Lois & Clark" awile ago: fairly straight, with a dose of humor.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I'm lucky in that respect. I never watch shows until they're in syndication, unless they're certifiable hits in no danger of cancellation.

That's one approach. Most of the shows I've liked the best would make a Top 10 list of "fastest cancellations". If they go one whole season, it's often a miracle.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

That's the idea

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Those serials were George Lucas' childhood!

It shows.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Now I think you're getting the picture. I think everyone is. And now I'll have to go through everything and find what fits my timeline best.

That's what I'd intended all along, 'cause I got the sense you wanted "pulpy" SF to go with the really good stuff to be done by the Trek alumni.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Remember, we came perilously close to an American Bond IOTL. (And indeed, only two of the six "official" Bonds have been English, though five were from the British Isles.) I suspect that even idle speculation of an American Doctor would throw the British media into an uproar. It was just a little bit of mischievous postulation...

I doubt the producers ever seriously considered an American any more than you did. My suspicion is, they did it to throw everyone off while they did their interviews & cut their deal.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Patrick Stewart going onto the very show he warned Lalla Ward against IOTL... well, you can't get much more ironic than that!

I'd forgotten about that... Then again, do we know why he warned her off?

Originally Posted by Brainbin

That's an interesting perspective you're taking. I don't know if I share it. Something you love, being warped beyond recognition, rather than having only your memories of the old stuff? Being a Star Trek fan, and looking at the franchise's course the last decade or so OTL, you've experienced both extremes (so the prevailing opinion tells me), and I guess you can say which one you would rather have.

Did I drop a "Brit" in there, somewhere? I haven't ever been a particular fan of Brit SF at all, from Triffids or On the Beach to The Doc, nor any since, & I was quite young watching "UFO" & "1999"; by "1999", I was already watching more to get good ideas from it than because it was good. (I especially liked the idea of Alpha as a place {& do still, which may help explain why I liked "DS9" so much}, & the Eagles.) I don't think I'd yet really figured out what "good" should look like. I did like the Tripods (also Brit IIRC), but it's been long years since I read those...