WI:Jean Charest Beats Kim Campbell to be PC Leader and Prime Minister?

This is something I've thought about for awhile now. I'm not sure what POD you would need to make it happen, but what if Jean Charest had been able to beat Kim Campbell to become the PC Leader, as well as Prime Minister to replace Brian Mulroney? People at the time did compare the two to the story of the Tortoise and the Hare, so perhaps the race goes on a bit longer, and Charest (the Tortoise) is able to defeat Campbell?

What effect would this have on the 1993 Federal Election? Would the PCs still be as devistated as they were in OTL, or might they do better under Charest? Heck, is their anyway he could give them the OO? Might they even do better than that?

Overall, what would be the short term and long terms effects of this on Canada? Would this have any impact on 1995? Could Charest still become Premier of Quebec?
 
This is something I've thought about for awhile now. I'm not sure what POD you would need to make it happen, but what if Jean Charest had been able to beat Kim Campbell to become the PC Leader, as well as Prime Minister to replace Brian Mulroney? People at the time did compare the two to the story of the Tortoise and the Hare, so perhaps the race goes on a bit longer, and Charest (the Tortoise) is able to defeat Campbell?

What effect would this have on the 1993 Federal Election? Would the PCs still be as devistated as they were in OTL, or might they do better under Charest? Heck, is their anyway he could give them the OO? Might they even do better than that?

Overall, what would be the short term and long terms effects of this on Canada? Would this have any impact on 1995? Could Charest still become Premier of Quebec?

Even with Campbell in that time frame they can retain OO or a weak 2006-ish minority with the proper PODs. Anyways, all you need to do is not have Team Charest snub third-place finisher Jim Edwards on the first ballot. IOTL he got offended and went to Campbell. Flip that, he wins by 5 points instead of her.

With Charest at the helm, the PCs probably form a strong OO or a weak minority. More likely is retaining OO with a seat count in the high 80s or low 90s. Another thing people forget is that Campbell turned the party hard-a-starboard on all aspects of policy, especially immigration and finance. Charest is a pure Red Tory, so forget that.
 
More likely is retaining OO with a seat count in the high 80s or low 90s. Another thing people forget is that Campbell turned the party hard-a-starboard on all aspects of policy, especially immigration and finance. Charest is a pure Red Tory, so forget that.

What do you think would happen to the BQ and Reform in that senario?
 
What do you think would happen to the BQ and Reform in that senario?

3-way split in Quebec like we had from 2004 until last May in Quebec, most likely with a PC plurality. In the West, PCs still dominate, though Reform gains seats in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Liberals will still gain a few Western seats because of vote-splitting, as happened IOTL in '93.

Long-term: depends what happens during those 4 years. In this scenario you might have a Liberal minority.
 
This is something I've thought about for awhile now. I'm not sure what POD you would need to make it happen, but what if Jean Charest had been able to beat Kim Campbell to become the PC Leader, as well as Prime Minister to replace Brian Mulroney?

Probably restrict Mulroney to one term (say, for example, the Karlheinz Schreiber/Airbus thing blows up way earlier than OTL), which calls for a snap PC leadership convention. Charest becomes the front-runner and wins the leadership round. Charest contests Mulroney's by-election and wins.

Hence, not only the 1993 election comes into play but also the 1988 election.
 
Probably restrict Mulroney to one term (say, for example, the Karlheinz Schreiber/Airbus thing blows up way earlier than OTL), which calls for a snap PC leadership convention. Charest becomes the front-runner and wins the leadership round. Charest contests Mulroney's by-election and wins.

Hence, not only the 1993 election comes into play but also the 1988 election.

I meant the 1993 PC Leadership Race.

Anyone have any thoughts on how a PC OO would function under Charest with a Liberal Minority?
 
While he'd probably do better than Campbell, the Tory leadership in 1993 is a poisoned chalice. The antipathy the country had towards Mulroney was remarkable and almost unprecedented, the country was in an economic recession, and the Liberal party was well-funded and had prepared very well for the election campaign, where they consistently outcampaigned the Tories.

Plus, after two majority governments, the theme of "change" was very easy to make resonate with voters, and finally Reform was eating into PC support out West (something a Red Tory Quebecois leader like Charest is definitely not going to help). Charest would probably avoid a total PC collapse in Quebec, but he isn't going to hold the whole province against Bouchard and the BQ either, so no salvation there.

Making a better Tory campaign (and it's important to remember that Campbell gave a huge polling boost to the Tories by virtue of being a fresh face and the first female PM - Charest wouldn't get that boost either, even if his overall campaign is less disastrous) is not going to change all that.

It might be a less one-sided blowout, and that would have more interesting knock-on effects for the future of the Progressive Conservatives, but I don't think any conceivable Tory leader is going to prevent a Liberal majority government in 1993. Hatred of Mulroney, fatigue with the Tories in power, and Reform and the Bloc eating into both their western and eastern power bases doomed them - the fact Chretien ran an excellent campaign (something this POD won't change) is just icing on the cake.

There are some interesting knock-on effects, though. Campbell's political life might not be at an end as a lot of people would consider her a huge "what-if" due to her personal popularity. She could (especially if she doesn't lose her seat in 1993) parlay that into another run at federal leadership, or she could return to BC politics. Charest, meanwhile, is basically done after a disastrous loss - leaving a huge gap in Quebec provincial politics. No idea who'd end up taking his place.

Quebec not becoming a monolithic, well, Bloc might butterfly a lot of how the next few elections go. And if the Tories manage to hold on to at least 40 seats, they'll be seen as a far more viable party going forward. They'll still likely end up merging with Reform (the conservative vote in Canada simply isn't big enough to be split between two parties), but the resulting merger is likely to both be perceived as a continuation of (and have a lot more elements from) the Progressive Conservative party.

That probably means no Stephen Harper - quite possibly Peter Mackay ends up on top, though it's hard to say if he'd prove to be as good a campaigner as Harper. On the plus side, there'd almost certainly be less reliance on personal attack ads in the future. I'd say Mackay probably ends up as PM due to self-inflicted wounds from the Liberals, but isn't going to be nearly as successful at it. I'd say Martin wins another majority in 2004, but due to the general unfairness of how that election was called, Mackay hangs on and becomes PM in 2009, probably with a minority, which sets up for a 2011 election against Dion, Rae or Ignatieff. My guess is Rae, because Dion (much as I like him) was a product of very fortuitous circumstance, and Ignatieff was a horrible campaigner. With a Liberal party that wasn't looking for a saviour/Trudeau replacement, and against perceived weaker opposition, they'd be less hesitant to go for Rae, who continuously gained on Ignatieff during the OTL leadership campaign but never could shake the "Ontario hates him" hesitation.

How 2011 would go depends entirely on how good a campaigner and minority leader Mackay is. He could absolutely rout the Liberals if they're still weak in Quebec and he can play on Ontario's fears of Rae, but if he's been seen as a bumbling PM or doesn't run a decent campaign, the Libs are likely to get in with a minority. Lots of possible butterflies by that point, though.
 
While he'd probably do better than Campbell, the Tory leadership in 1993 is a poisoned chalice.

Coincidentally, Poisoned Chalice: The Last Campaign of the Progressive Conservative Party? is a fantastic book.

I can't recall if I did post some of them on the board but there were a number of PODs in that book and enough discussion of the campaign, staff, and even a little counterfactual talk about Charest to muster a reasonable alternate outcome.

Given Charest's nine lives in Quebec IOTL (seriously, it's getting f*cking ridiculous at this point) it's quite possible for the Progressive Conservatives to remain in a pretty good position.

Reform and the BQ will hurt, but Charest will cut the BQs legs out in a number of places and the overall improved position in a Charest PC Party (when there was a chance, rather than '97) will help.

If one could get Dave Barrett to the leadership of the federal NDP instead of Audrey McLaughlin (a 1989 POD centred there that has knock-on effects in '93 perhaps) then the NDP and PC Party should, as traditional, split what would be Manning's reform vote.

So a weakened PC Party, a stronger NDP, a stronger Liberal, weak Reform, and weaker BQ, and any result you want in the 1993 election.

probably with a minority, which sets up for a 2011 election against Dion, Rae or Ignatieff. My guess is Rae, because Dion (much as I like him) was a product of very fortuitous circumstance, and Ignatieff was a horrible campaigner. With a Liberal party that wasn't looking for a saviour/Trudeau replacement, and against perceived weaker opposition, they'd be less hesitant to go for Rae, who continuously gained on Ignatieff during the OTL leadership campaign but never could shake the "Ontario hates him" hesitation.

Nah. We're too far out. Butterflies from different provincial governments, a totally different Quebec, altered federal governments, etc…. I can think of half a dozen more likely politicians than those guys that might be there and the same goes for whatever the alt-Conservative Party is versus your use of McKay.

Mixing Liberals and Tories, but still: John Tory, Bernard Lord, Maxime Bernier, Jim Prentice, Dalton McGuinty, Gerard Kennedy, John Manley, Allan Rock, Sheila Copps, Frank McKenna, Brian Tobin and Martin Cauchon.
 
The Liberals I'll grant have a lot of butterflies between 1993 and 2011, but I'd still say Mackay is likely to rise to the top in the Conservative mix after a 1993 disaster. Good looks, good speaker, broadly ideologically acceptable to the party, and his election is unlikely to be butterflied. I suppose a less destroyed PC party might throw up another contender, though - obviously he benefited from the paucity of PC members.

Still can't see any other plausible option than a Liberal majority in 2003, though. Sure, Chretien wasn't personally popular until the Tory attack ads made him the sympathetic little guy, but he's a sharp campaigner going against a governing party dragged down by the most unpopular federal leader in modern Canadian history, that was on its second majority and was running 15% in the polls before Campbell briefly brought them to parity with the Liberals. This was the Liberal's election to lose, not the PCs to win.
 
Bump...


Okay, here's a question I had. Let's say Charest loses the election and is no longer Prime Minister, but has enough seats to be the LOTO. Would he still be able to stay on, or does he resign or get forced out? Would it make a difference if this was a Liberal Majority or Minority?
 
Bump...


Okay, here's a question I had. Let's say Charest loses the election and is no longer Prime Minister, but has enough seats to be the LOTO. Would he still be able to stay on, or does he resign or get forced out? Would it make a difference if this was a Liberal Majority or Minority?

He'll stay on. Nearly the entire Mulroney cabinet was retiring from active poiltics, and Charest was by far the best choice of those who stayed. Perhaps the best example is Harper in 2004: everyone expected Martin would win around 185 seats, if not more, in those last pre-Adscam days. As it turned out, but for a couple of tactical errors, Harper could have become PM 2 years earlier than OTL with a similar seat count to OTL '06. Reducing Armageddon to a respectable OO is certainly cause for applause.


As for what happens in the long term, it's a crapshoot. If Martin is less overtly ambitious than OTL then Chretien retires after two terms in Martin's favour- and Martin wins because he has the organization in place despite a crowded field (every Grit EM mentioned). Just like Turner in '84.
 
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