Happy and Glorious.

[Shaby]

Originally Posted by Devolved

Just because the Japanese have surrendered it doesn't mean they will stop fighting everywhere immediately. Also Stalin will want to take as much as possible by any means possible.

I presume you don't think on few isolated soldiers on islands. What about Japanese in China? Could they perhaps join Chiang ITTL if Soviets appear to aggressive in Far East?

[Astrodragon]

I'm deeply dissapointed that the Yamato wasn't finished off by a bomber from Glorious that put a bomb down her funnel , setting off a magazine explosion that scattered the ship all over the Pacific Ocean..

SHAME on you!!!

[trekchu]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

I'm deeply dissapointed that the Yamato wasn't finished off by a bomber from Glorious that put a bomb down her funnel , setting off a magazine explosion that scattered the ship all over the Pacific Ocean..

SHAME on you!!!

I sunk her by a combination of British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand Carrier aircraft. At sea and underway. Happy?

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Some Bloke

I vote to continue this threat post war.

Some Bloke

I think it depends on what you consider post war. The current war is, just about, over but I think there's a small skirmish brewing.

Steve

[Torqumada]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

I'm deeply dissapointed that the Yamato wasn't finished off by a bomber from Glorious that put a bomb down her funnel , setting off a magazine explosion that scattered the ship all over the Pacific Ocean..

SHAME on you!!!

I guess the Mutsu will be used in the cartoon instead.

Torqumada

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Some Bloke

I vote to continue this threat post war.

Second that.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

I'm deeply dissapointed that the Yamato wasn't finished off by a bomber from Glorious that put a bomb down her funnel , setting off a magazine explosion that scattered the ship all over the Pacific Ocean..

SHAME on you!!!

The damaged Yamato is going to be a war prize.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by Shaby

I presume you don't think on few isolated soldiers on islands. What about Japanese in China? Could they perhaps join Chiang ITTL if Soviets appear to aggressive in Far East?

Many Japanese will fight on in China and South East Asia.

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued


September 21st to September 30th 1945





Japan


September 21st witnessed food riots in Tokyo in which 11 people were killed. On the same day the Emperor appointed his distant uncle Prince Naruhiko Higashikuni as Prime Minister. It was hoped that his standing as a member of the Imperial family and a General would help to ease the transition.

The Emperor was in profound despair for the next few days as the reality of defeat sank in. Japanese officials arrived on Guam to talk with Nimitz and his officials. The main purpose was to facilitate a US landing in Japan and the venue for the final surrender ceremony. They also asked about the status of the Emperor to which Nimitz replied "That's not my decision to make".

In Britain the case was clear cut. Hirohito was to be arrested as a war crimminal. The Soviet's agreed even though they had been fighting for less than 2 weeks. This position was supported by the other Allies and by US public opinion. Truman didn't care about Hirohito one way or another but the administration was concerned about law and order within Japan.

MacArthur had bombarded the President with messages in which he gave advice based on his knowledge of the 'Oriental Mind'. Truman sent a message thanking him for his input.

On September 23rd there was more trouble from some army units led by junior officers who couldn't accept what happened. More sporadic fighting broke out over the next 2 days in which the final rebels were defeated at the cost of 172 killed. Added to the death toll were the steady flow of ritual suicides. Among them were Admiral Nagumo.

On September 28th a party of 150 Americans arrived on Honshu to prepare the way for the rest of the American occupation forces.

On September 30th The US 3rd Fleet apeared in Tokyo Bay with Admiral Nimitz flying his flag in the Battleship Missouri. The British were represented by the Duke of York and carriers HMS Formidable and Indomitable, 3 cruisers and 9 destroyers.




Manchuria


The Russians had broken through the Japanese forces and reached the city of Harbin on September 22nd. Many of the Japanese were unaware of the surrender or were told by their commanders to ignore it. Stalin ordered his troops to keep advancing until the objectives are achieved. IF the Japanese surrender then good and if they don't destroy them.

Many Japanese began surrendering in large numbers from September 21st. The Russians reached Port Arthur on September 24th. On the same day they crossed the Yalu river into Korea where they already found a country in disorder as Koreans tried to claim their independence on September 19th. It was also on September 24th that the Americans went public with their decision to hold Korea south of the 38th paralell. The Russians continued their advance against sporadic Japanese opposition until they halted on the paralell.

The fighting after the surrender cost the Russians 4,500 dead and 11,000 wounded. The Japanese lost 13,000 killed, 20,000 wounded and 470,000 captured.



Singapore

The Americans had wanted a simultaneous surrender across the entire theater of war but the situation in Singapore was considered too serious.

General Slim asked for Singapore's surrender on September 19th. Initially the Japanese commander refused to surrender until the formal ceremony in Tokyo. The result was serious disturbances in Singapore in which hundreds of Singaporeans were killed. An uprising by the small resistance organization began on September 21st and was swiftly crushed by the Japanese. They then executed the prisoners. This action guarranteed that the Japanese commander would be hanged after the war.

In order to spare the lives of his troops when the war had already finished Slim refused to resume the attack on Singapore and reluctantly decided to wait for the formal surrender.

In the rest of Malaya, however, many hungry Japanese troops began to emerge from cover to give themselves up. About 4,000 Japanese troops surrendered in the final week in September.

Indochina


The British led forces now controlled most of Cambodia and Laos. In Vietnam there were serious disturbances as various nationalist groups cam e into the open. In Hanoi Ho Chi Minh read the Vietnamese declaration of independence to a jubilant crowd. Most of the declaration being copied from the American declaration of Independence. In a conciliatory gesture to the British forces not too far away he had ordered his men to liberate two small POW camps containing British and Commonwealth prisoners.

Dutch East Indies

The new Indonesian Nationalist government was proclaimed on September 21st. Sukarno would be President and Mohammad Hatta as vice President . The proclamation was read in central Jakarta with Japanese troops maintaining order.

The Dutch had sent messages to the Japanese urging them to maintain order until they arrived. The Japanese replied that they took their orders from the government of Japan and the were working to maintain order with the administration in Jakarta.

The Dutch were furious and pressurred the British to make a landing as soon as possible. Unfortunately the British were fully committed to Indochina and Malaya and informed the Dutch that they had little to spare.

News of Indonesian Independence spread slowly but by September 30th the new government controlled Java and was spreading to the other islands.

TBC

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued


October 1st to November 1st 1945


Germany

The US withdrawal gathered real momentum after the end of the Berlin Conference. By the end of October there were 35 American divisions in Europe. SHAEF was dissolved and Eisenhower handed over command of US forces and the governorship of the American occupation zone to George Patton. Mark Clark was confirmed as governor of American forces in Austria and General Devers was replaced as governor of Czechoslovakia by General Keyes.

It was also during this time that the Allies agreed to hand over senior Russian officers who had fought with the Nazis but had refused to hand over lower ranks.

De Nazification was also initiated although very quickly the Allies gave up doing this after the senior Nazis had been arrested or replaced.

another problem were the masses of refugess. Among these were 450,000 Jewish holocaust survivors, 2,500,000 displaced West Europeans, 1,200,000 from the Soviet Union who didn't want to return and approximately 2,000,000 Germans from the East.

(this was less than OTL but it still seemed like a huge problem).

Germany in this T/L was less damaged than OTL. Berlin fell without a street battle. Dresden was only bombed by tactical aircraft and the Allied bomber offensive had not targetted cities as much as OTL. However, there has still been a lot of damage. Approximately 200,000 less German civilians and 150,000 less soldiers had been killed in WW2 than OTL. Only the Kriegsmarine had suffered higher losses.

Hungary

The British began to withdraw their troops from western Hungary. Tens of thousands of Hungarian and German refugees were leaving too.

Bulgaria

The Russians began their withdrawal from Bulgaria as the British pulled out of Hungary. The Bulgarian government decided to call elections for early December.

Greece

Greek government troops supported by RAF Beaufighters attacked communist encampments in Epirus.

Yugoslavia

The cruiser HMS Glasgow and 2 destroyers returned to shell Yugoslav artillery positions. On October 9th a bomb explosion in Zagreb killed 2 of King Peter's ministers and a British Foreign office official.

Italy

A conference opened in Rome to decide the final peace treaty between Italy and the Allies. The sticking points were reparations, the Dodecanese, Zara on the Dalmatian coast and Istria. The Italians pointed out their role as being members of the Allies for over 2 years.

In this T/L Italy is also better off than OTL. Rome and Central Italy was liberated by the summer of 1943 and most of the rest cleared by 1944. This meant that the country had been less bombed, less looted by the Germans and was politically more stable. The country was still in a poor state but much stronger than OTL.

UK

If an opinion poll had been published at the beginning of the UK General Election in September 1945 it would have put Labour on 46.5%, Conservative and National Liberal 40%, Liberal 9% and others 4.5%.

Labour's popularity had actually peaked in 1942 between the fall of Singapore and the battle of Gazala when it reached an 18 point lead. Since then, despite Churchill's neglect of domestic affairs there was a grudging admiration from even his enemies. Also the better performance of the Allies in general and the British in particular reinforced faith in the ability of the government to get things right.

During the election 3 things happened. Firstly the Beaverbrook press capitalized on the leadership crisis in the Labour Party during the summer. Then came VJ Day and then the American announcement that Lend Lease would end On October 2nd.

VJ Day brought more celebrations in Britain and an upsurge in goodwill towards Churchill. Of course the problem wasn't Churchill it was the Conservative Party. By mid point in the Election campaign an opinion poll would have put Labour on 44.5%, Tories, 41.5%.

The ending of Lend Lease highlighted the financial position. Until then the money just seemed to flow at the governments will and most ordinary people believed it would continue.

Now questions were asked about Labour's spending promises. above all was the worry that a future Labour government would produce another 1931 financial crisis.

On election day the share of the vote was Labour 43%, Conservative 43%, Liberal 9.5%, others 4.5%.

In seats this meant.

Labour 297

Conservative 303

Liberal 15

National Liberal 10

Independent 7

National 1

Commonwealth 2

Communist 2

Others 7

Churchill was shocked. His majority was gone and he found himself relying on National Liberals and perhaps the Liberal themselves. In talks with Liberal leader Sinclair he was told that he would have to implement the Beveridge Report as a minimum condition for a coalition government.

Attlee did better than he expected and it was Labour's highest vote. He told a press conference that Labour could be in power within 2 years.


TBC

[The Oncoming Storm]

This obviously means no "NHS" as we know it but rather more of a health insurance scheme with the hospitals not being nationalised, also no mass nationalisation apart from perhaps coal and the railways. Can Atlee hang on? With the strong chance of an early GE that will shore up his position to an extent but Morrison will be biding his time, so will Bevan and others, especially if the new Coalition proves durable.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

This obviously means no "NHS" as we know it but rather more of a health insurance scheme with the hospitals not being nationalised, also no mass nationalisation apart from perhaps coal and the railways. Can Atlee hang on? With the strong chance of an early GE that will shore up his position to an extent but Morrison will be biding his time, so will Bevan and others, especially if the new Coalition proves durable.

Attlee is fine. Remember that OTL the Labour victory was a shock. He has done better than he or anyone else thought he would. Morrison I think could be blamed by senior labour leaders as someone whose actions damaged Labour's chances of winning.

The NHS as we know it may not happen unless Labour win an early election but all three parties were committed to a better society than pre war. The doctors will fight almost any change and with no Bevan they will have more success.

To be honest I am sad that Labour didn't win but IMO the T/L of a later election combined with the end of Lend Lease and VJ day would have benefitted the Tories.

[stevep]

Devolved

Damn, that could be bad. As The Ongoing Storm says that could drastically reduce the NHS and also other services. Possibly most importantly in the longer term education. Britain could end up being a lot poorer and more socially divided than OTL, and that was bad enough.

I'm going to be away for a week or two but will catch up when I get back.

Steve

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by stevep

Devolved

Damn, that could be bad. As The Ongoing Storm says that could drastically reduce the NHS and also other services. Possibly most importantly in the longer term education. Britain could end up being a lot poorer and more socially divided than OTL, and that was bad enough.

I'm going to be away for a week or two but will catch up when I get back.

Steve

I partially agree. OTOH the story isn't over yet.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Originally Posted by stevep

Devolved

Damn, that could be bad. As The Ongoing Storm says that could drastically reduce the NHS and also other services. Possibly most importantly in the longer term education. Britain could end up being a lot poorer and more socially divided than OTL, and that was bad enough.

I'm going to be away for a week or two but will catch up when I get back.

Steve

Who's he?

Actually it could work out better, this is closer to the model for the NHS that people like Morrison wanted, a more locally organised service primarily run by the cities and counties, Bevan's NHS eventually resulted in a mammoth bureaucracy that takes resources away from the frontline. Politically I am a Localist who believes in services being accountable to the people who use them and I regard the way local government in Britain has been downgraded since 1945 and particularly during the Thatcher years as a major mistake so it will be very interesting to see how this NHS model turns out.

[Sam R.]

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

This obviously means no "NHS" as we know it but rather more of a health insurance scheme with the hospitals not being nationalised, also no mass nationalisation apart from perhaps coal and the railways. Can Atlee hang on? With the strong chance of an early GE that will shore up his position to an extent but Morrison will be biding his time, so will Bevan and others, especially if the new Coalition proves durable.

You do realise that this means that the CPGB _and_ Labourites in the left wing unions will attempt to challenge UK capitalism in 1949, probably in the mines.

It'll mean that the same lessons learnt at FIAT in the late 1950s will be learnt in the UK in this time line. These are lessons that the United Kingdom as a capitalist nation under Westminster can ill afford their working class to learn.

"Interesting."

At the minimum it makes the CPGB Historians Group fairly central to the development of post-"reformist" leftism and changes UK Trotskyism fundamentally.

yours,
Sam R.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by Sam R.

You do realise that this means that the CPGB _and_ Labourites in the left wing unions will attempt to challenge UK capitalism in 1949, probably in the mines.

It'll mean that the same lessons learnt at FIAT in the late 1950s will be learnt in the UK in this time line. These are lessons that the United Kingdom as a capitalist nation under Westminster can ill afford their working class to learn.

"Interesting."

At the minimum it makes the CPGB Historians Group fairly central to the development of post-"reformist" leftism and changes UK Trotskyism fundamentally.

yours,
Sam R.

I think that OTL there were major challenges by rank and file workers anyway. The Unions accepted wage restraint, especially after 1947 but the Labour government still had to use emergency powers against strikers.

I admit that industrial relations will be more confrontational especially in the late 40's.

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued


October 1st to November 1st 1945



Japan

The surrender ceremony took place in Tokyo Bay on October 2nd 1945.

Before the ink was dry the first US troops landed. The Japanese army was ordered to lay down all arms and surrender. The Imperial Japanese Navy was to surrender all ships to the Allies and no Japanese aircraft were allowed to fly. The Americans were shocked to find that the crippled Yamato had 18" guns.

The Emperor was confined to the Imperial palace and was effectively under house arrest. Hirohito offered to abdicate in favour of his young son Akihito. Nimitz was told that the Emperor should stay for a few months until the transition to Allied occupation was complete. The Emperor secretly agreed to step down on March 1st.

The Russians now demanded Hokkaido as their own occupation zone. Truman said that it was too late for that. Stalin half expected this and immediately announced that the USSR would be annexing Southern Sakhalin and the Kurile Islands.

The British and Australians were also denied their own exclusive zone but they did agree that 40,000 Commonwealth troops would be included in the occupation force and they would also have a say in the Allied governing council.

Singapore

British troops marched into Singapore on October 2nd and disarmed the Japanese garrison. The British had indicated that the new Japanese POWs would be retained to carry out reconstruction work in Singapore and Malaya.

The British Far Eastern Fleet returned to Singapore Harbour.

Hong Kong

A British naval force consisting of the light carriers Colossus and Glory plus HMS Hood arrived at Hong Kong to accept the surrender of the Japanese garrison before Chiang Kai Shek's men tried to get there first.

Indochina

The Japanese surrendered to General Philip Christison in Saigon on October 2nd. Two days later he travelled to Hanoi and met Ho Chi Minh who presented him with 400 British, Australian and Indian POWs as a 'gift'. The British general did not tell Ho to disperse his troops but instead allowed them to secure Haiphong for the arrival of Allied ships.

Indonesia

It wasn't until October 12th that Field Marshall Auchinleck arrived in Jakarta to accept the Japanese surrender. By this stage there were thousands of armed Indonesians in the city. The main concern of the British were the Allied POWs, especially the Dutch. Sukarno had already opened 1 camp but there were many others. There was reports of Japanese and Indonesians firing on Allied planes dropping food on the POW camps.

Sabang was the only part of the East Indies with a Dutch flag flying. A group of 140 Dutch commandos relaeased from UK service landed on Aceh on October 17th. They arrived in two merchant vessels. The Japanese opened fire as they disembarked. The result was a firefight after which the Dutch were forced to withdraw losing 9 killed and 4 captured. The RAF responded by strafing Aceh the next day killing 2 Japanese and 13 Indonesians.


TBC

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued


November 1st to December 1st 1945




UK

Churchill was exhausted and looked it. Anthony Eden was now being openly talked of as taking over within weeks but Eden himself knew that Winston had no intention of stepping down when he felt he had to win the peace.

Britain was almost as exhausted as their 72 year old leader. Just how bad their situation was no one wanted to face.

The Chanceller of the Exchequer Anderson highlighted the country's plight at a cabinet meeting. The end of Lend Lease could spell economic disaster and the end of Britain as a great power. Churchill thought that was a slight exaggeration and ended the meeting by saying that he would lead a delegation to Washington in person to 'get a gift' from Truman.

ITTL Britain had lost 10,500 less killed than OTL despite achieving far more on the battlefields. There had also been around 80,000 less British and Empire POWs in the war. The biggest savings came in ending the North African campaign 4 months early and not losing Burma. There was also the easier start to the Italian campaign.

This balanced out the negatives of the North West Europe campaign lasting 2 months longer and landing and fighting in Malaya. Finally the saving of life that resulted from not losing Glorious, Hood, Repulse and Prince of Wales.

The UK economy also benefitted from slightly less German bombing in 1942 plus keeping Burma (thereby making India more secure and prosperous) and opening up the Mediterranean to shipping sooner. Italy was also needing less aid and being a better market for exports. This didn't make all that much difference from OTL but it was still an improvement.

The demobilization of the British army was now under way. They now had 10 divisions in Germany. This plus the withdrawal from Hungary helped to alleviate the manpower crisis as the Far East needed more men.

HMS Audacious began sea trials. The cruiser HMS Superb was also commissioned.

Germany

The Americans were down to 25 divisions in Germany. The Allied authority had decided that German steel production should be reduced to 19 million tons. This was considered enough for Germany to be a major economic power in Europe without being a military giant. The French finally withdrew from German soil in return for reparations rom the Saar region in the form of coal production.

The Russians however were stripping Eastern Germany of anything that could move in order to rebuild it's own shattered economy.

Czechoslovakia

The Russians kept their word about withdrawing their troops. The Americans prevented mass expulsion of the Sudeten Germans although about 500,000 eventually left by the end of the year.

Hungary

Hungary was now a Soviet satellite.

Bulgaria

Bulgaria agreed to pay reparations to Greece and Yugoslavia in the form of food.

Greece

The RAF carried out 200 operational sorties against communist guerillas in November.

Yugoslavia

The Yugoslav conference was finally under way in Zagreb.

TBC

[Shaby]

French might get really piss*d with British over Ho and Indochina (or is it Viet Nam already?). Though this outcome might be better than OTL.