Happy and Glorious.

[Astrodragon]

You do realise that if the German fleet is reversing course it passes in range of any British aircraft in Iceland....

Also, Holland is going to have something shadowing PE, he cant just let her break off into the convoy lanes. Although he could of course use an aircraft to do this until more surface units turn up.

[zert]

Well you have things coming done the wire now. Nice build up to the battle and I will wait to see how things may turn out. I will agree that at least some kind of ship/plane should follow PE so that other ships can be directed towards it or have convoys diverted away from its course.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

You do realise that if the German fleet is reversing course it passes in range of any British aircraft in Iceland....

Also, Holland is going to have something shadowing PE, he cant just let her break off into the convoy lanes. Although he could of course use an aircraft to do this until more surface units turn up.

I know but if he goes the other way then Holland simply follows and Tovey's force and eventually Force H are guided in. You have a massacre by carrier aircraft, battleships, cruisers and destroyers.

I am not sure how powerful anti ship capable air forces were on Iceland but I am guessing that they won't be all that much. If any one has info on Coastal command forces in Iceland in May 1941 I would much appreciate it.

[usertron2020]

On 24 May 1941 OTL the Admiralty ordered the Revenge class battleship HMS Ramilles to leave her convoy southwest of the of the battle and to engage the enemy. If Prinz Eugen, a heavy cruiser, engages her, the PE is in big trouble. Unless she scores a Golden BB. In which case we are officially in Germanwank territory.

Logic would dictate however that should the PE sight the Ramilles, she would run like hell.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

On 24 May 1941 OTL the Admiralty ordered the Revenge class battleship HMS Ramilles to leave her convoy southwest of the of the battle and to engage the enemy. If Prinz Eugen, a heavy cruiser, engages her, the PE is in big trouble. Unless she scores a Golden BB. In which case we are officially in Germanwank territory.

Logic would dictate however that should the PE sight the Ramilles, she would run like hell.

Ramillies could defend a convoy but not do much else because she was too slow. She was designed for 21 knots but I think they (Revenge class) were often only able to do 18 knots in WW2. Prinz Eugen could run rings around the ship but wouldn't engage.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Devolved

Ramillies could defend a convoy but not do much else because she was too slow. She was designed for 21 knots but I think they (Revenge class) were often only able to do 18 knots in WW2. Prinz Eugen could run rings around the ship but wouldn't engage.

All true. However, IIRC, Captain Martin on his own initiative had his heavy cruiser HMS Dorsetshire break off from her convoy and arrived just in time to administer the coup-de-grace to Bismarck.

[PMN1]

Originally Posted by sharlin

Regarding bombs, the RN also had the idea of using lots of smaller bombs which would 'sweep the decks' of their targets and knock out things like AA Guns (IE their crews) and sensative things like rangefinders etc. When some Blenheim's attacked the IJN they used 500lb bombs and groups of 8 much smaller weapons with that idea in mind to cause damage and confusion.

Courageous' smaller bombs were 144 x 100lb and 422 x 20lb.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by PMN1

Courageous' smaller bombs were 144 x 100lb and 422 x 20lb.

Jesus. That would knock out AA guns and that's about it. Unless they changed the magazines with the survival of Glorious?

[Aarone]

Well
i think kinda figured it wasn't an accident.
Thanks.

[Sandman396]

Subscribed

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Devolved

I know but if he goes the other way then Holland simply follows and Tovey's force and eventually Force H are guided in. You have a massacre by carrier aircraft, battleships, cruisers and destroyers.

I am not sure how powerful anti ship capable air forces were on Iceland but I am guessing that they won't be all that much. If any one has info on Coastal command forces in Iceland in May 1941 I would much appreciate it.

Wasnt the Catalina that found Bismark in OTL flying out of Iceland? IIRC there were also some long range patrol aircraft that could carry bombs. The Cat could carry torpedos (they did it in the Pacific),but I assume theyd need to be modded for it.

Now the RAF, of course, is going to be busting a gut trying to get anything they hvae in range in the air with bombs to prove to the world their wonderful theories of bomber supremacy... which could be amusing...

[sharlin]

sending a Cat against a fully armed and manouvering warship is just asking to sacrifice the crew of the seaplane. In 1941 there was no major strike force at Iceland, I don't think there was enough Beauforts and Beaufighters to go around and costal command would not have been involved in this apart from as recon.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Wasnt the Catalina that found Bismark in OTL flying out of Iceland? IIRC there were also some long range patrol aircraft that could carry bombs. The Cat could carry torpedos (they did it in the Pacific),but I assume theyd need to be modded for it.

If you mean the plane that sighted the Bismarck before it's sinking IOTL, that was operating out of Castle Archdale on Lough Erne Co Fermanagh, I don't think any aircraft based on Iceland sighted but I may be wrong.

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued

Admiral Holland hoped for an outright victory but he didn't expect it. He didn't share this with the officers around him. It wouldn't be good for morale. What he really hoped for was to inflict heavy damage on the enemy and perhaps force them to turn away to the south and into the arms of other British units. He felt he had the firepower to at least do that.

The problem Holland faced was the weak deck armour of the Hood. She would be vulnerable to plunging fire from the Bismarck until she closed the range. He decided that with the Prinz Eugen gone and the Hipper having only one rear turret operable (confirmed by air reconaissance) he would set the two County Class Cruisers plus the destroyer on to the Gneisenau. Their job was simply to keep her busy rather than fight to the finish. Hood and Prince of Wales would attack Bismarck together until Hood was out of the 'vulnerable zone'. Prince of Wales would then take on Gneisenau.

Finally he would break off the action when the Glorious told him they were ready to launch another torpedo attack.

Admiral Marschall saw the British force trying to manoeuvre into position. He gave his order to the Hipper.

'Toward the enemy battlecruisers. Give it everything. Heil Hitler'

The irony of the order was not lost on the captain of the Hipper. He doubted, however, that he would be as lucky as the real Hipper.

Prince of Wales opened fire first. The shells landed a little short.

One and a half minutes later the Bismarck returned fire. She was firing on the Hood.

[sharlin]

A death charge by the hipper, interesting, she could try laying down smoke but that would blind the germans as well and degrade gunnery on both sides which plays into the hoods hands as she wants to get close.

[PMN1]

Originally Posted by sharlin

sending a Cat against a fully armed and manouvering warship is just asking to sacrifice the crew of the seaplane. In 1941 there was no major strike force at Iceland, I don't think there was enough Beauforts and Beaufighters to go around and costal command would not have been involved in this apart from as recon.

Quite an interesting discussion on the airbase on Iceland.


http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...164228&start=0

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued


Admiral Hollands' face looked grim. The German commander knew what he was doing. 15" shells from the Bismarck had now straddled the Hood. The Hood herself had now opened fire with her forward turrets. The Fulmar was spotting for her. He had also noticed the Hipper approaching. He guessed she was trying to stir things up a bit and perhaps try to launch her torpedoes. At the moment he determined that she was no threat.

A hit.

Captain Leach smiled broadly. His ship with its green crew, mechanical problems and civilian contract workers still on board had struck the Bismarck.

Gneisenau opened fire on the British Cruisers at extreme range. The captain was annoyed that he was being distracted from the real fight. He wanted to ignore the cruisers but there were two of them approaching fast as though they were destroyers. Talking of destroyers he had just seen one of them too. His ship could only do 22 knots so his options were not what he would have liked them to be.

A 15" shell strikes the Hood. It hit the barbette of the front turret and knocked it out. Luckily it was one of the best armoured parts of the ship. Two more 15" shells struck the sea close to the Hood and exploded. No serious damage was done but there was minor flooding in the bow section.


Another 14" shell hits the Bismarck. Like Hood she now has sea water leaking into the bow. Bismarck turns to broadside. Hood is doing the same.


Suffolk is hit by an 11" shell. It plunges deep and blows a hole below the waterline. Norfolk is straddled. She is now within 8" range and quickly scores a hit on the Gneisenau.

Hipper has closed the range and prepares to launch its torpedoes on the Hood. Admiral Holland knows all about this. Hood's secondary armament opens fire though without much effect.

Another 15" hit on the Hood. This time the shell strikes close to the conning tower. Hood now has 10 killed.

"About bloody time!" Cries Admiral Holland.

Hood has scored a 15" hit on the Bismarck. Seconds later another 14" shell lands from the Prince of Wales. Bismarck has two dead.

Suffolk is taking in water and withdraws from the fight making smoke. A 11" shell passes through the bows of the Norfolk without exploding. She scores another 8" hit on the Gneisenau. The Destroyer has now started firing even though she's out of range.

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued


The captain of the HMS Glorious sent a message to Admiral Holland. It told him he could launch another attack in the next 45 minutes.

By the time Admiral Holland read the message his ship was burning in many places. There had almost been an explosion in the magazines but quick action had prevented it.

Hood had now been hit 7 times by 15" shell and twice by smaller calibre shells. Luckily she was now in the 'safer zone' meaning that plunging fire was no longer a problem. She was also able to avoid the single torpedo so far launched by the Hipper. So far one 15" turret was out of action but Hood was still in the fight. She had hit the Bismarck 3 times.

The Prince of Wales was now coming under fire too. Bismarck had been forced to divide it's fire due to the Gneisenau falling behind and being baited by cruiser and destroyer forces. So far Bismarck had failed to hit POW and indeed Bismarck was having targetting problems due to acumulating damage. POW had hit Bismarck 4 times with 14" shell. One of POW's 14" turrets had stopped firing due to mechanical problems but as she was firing broadside she still had 6 14" guns operating.

Gneisenau had hit the cruiser Norfolk two more times with 11" shell. Three of Norfolks' turrets were now knocked out and the ship was on fire along half its length. She withdrew. The smokescreen produced by the Suffolk was used by the solitary British destroyer to close on the Gniesenau. The Gneisenau knew she was there and was firing all of her secondary battery. However Norfolk had hit her 3 times with 8" shell and damaged her fire control. The destroyer was able to charge through a curtain of splashes and got close enough to launch her torpedoes.

**************

Note

For those interested in the body count for The Battle of Iceland so far it is as follows;

British Losses

One destroyer sunk by Hipper 107 dead

One destroyer heavily damaged by Hipper 28 dead

one destroyer slightly damaged 5 dead

Suffolk leaking water but still capable of 20 knots 28 dead

Norfolk heavily damaged 63 dead

Glorious Fulmar 2 dead

Hood 59 dead

Prince of Wales 0

British Total = 292 dead

German Losses

Admiral Hipper 3x8" turrets out 77 dead.

Gneisenau 4 dead

Bismarck 22 dead plus 2 pilots

Prinz Eugen 1 dead from fulmar strafing.

Total German loss 104 killed.

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued.

"Withdraw. Make smoke" Admiral Holland gasped. The air was acrid and he knew Hood was already making quite a lot of smoke.

Two turrets were now out of action. Bismarck's 15" shells were tearing into the side armour. Hood had been hit 10 times and she had been hit below the waterline allowing sea water to rush in.

Captain Leach saw Hood's predicament through his binoculars and tried not to feel disappointment with Holland's order to withdraw. The Prince of Wales was performing beyond his expectations of even a day ago. Bismarck had finally hit her but the damage was minimal.


Admiral Marschall looked at the mangled features of what had once been Captain Lindemann. He had been killed by a piece of flying metal. Some of his blood was on Admiral Marschalls' coat. Bismarck had now lost a turret and had been hit 5 times by 15" shell and 6 times by 14". He didn't reply when he was told that the Hood and Prince of Wales were withdrawing.


Gneisenau had dodged all but one of the torpedoes launched by the destroyer. It wasn't bad for a big ship restricted to 22 knots he thought. He smiled ruefully when a 5.9" shell from his ship hit the British destroyer as it turned away.

The torpedo strike had also been against the strongest part of the ship but this was the third strike and the cumulative damage was having a serious effect. Within a few minutes the Gneisenau was reduced to 18 knots. By then the British ships had broken off.

The Suffolk was leaking a lot of water now and her speed declined rapidly. Soon she was making 16 knots and it was beginning to look like she wouldn't be getting home.

The Hipper tried again to attack to the Hood but this time she came under fire from Prince of Wales. The Hipper turned away but as she was doing so a 14" shell hit her amidships.

[PMN1]

Normally suggest this would be good music the final scene if they ever made a film of HMS Ulysses but this would also sound good here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-rHd...eature=related