Happy and Glorious.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Devolved

One extreme view was to scrap ALL battleships within months and release the crews for carriers and escorts. The scrap metal would be useful too they said.

They argued that a navy built around carrier battle groups, protected by fast cruisers and destroyers made more sense and was more flexible. Aircraft would sink or disable any ship they encounter and cruisers and destroyers could finish off cripples, provide AA fire and shell beaches for the invasion of Europe.

This was rejected as too much too soon.

In the end they submitted their recommendations to Churchill.

The proposed battleship force for the end of 1942 was to be as follows:

5 KGV class battleships

3 fast battlecruisers. Hood, Renown, Repulse.

Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, Warspite.

Nelson and Rodney for home waters and shore bombardment for the eventual invasion of France.

Scrap the 4 surviving Revenge class and the HMS Malaya and HMS Barham and use their turrets for cheap monitors for shore bombardment duties.

Crews to be released for carriers, monitors and destroyers/escorts.

Churchill approved.

They are good for nothing else.[/QUOTE]

Well fine, if you say so...

Have you decided what to do about Centaur class?

I would propose that Malta class is built instead, better 2 Malta class than 4 Centaurs.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by abc123

They are good for nothing else.

Well fine, if you say so...

Have you decided what to do about Centaur class?

I would propose that Malta class is built instead, better 2 Malta class than 4 Centaurs.[/QUOTE]

Read a couple of pages back and your questions are answered.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Devolved

Well fine, if you say so...

Have you decided what to do about Centaur class?

I would propose that Malta class is built instead, better 2 Malta class than 4 Centaurs.

Read a couple of pages back and your questions are answered.[/QUOTE]

Now you KNOW you aren't allowed to build anything bigger than the Americans have.....

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Read a couple of pages back and your questions are answered.

Now you KNOW you aren't allowed to build anything bigger than the Americans have.....[/QUOTE]

I was waiting for a comment on my 55,000 ton 'Malta Class' carriers. Maybe the Americans will respond with 12 Forrestals.

[Sior]

Originally Posted by Devolved

Now you KNOW you aren't allowed to build anything bigger than the Americans have.....

I was waiting for a comment on my 55,000 ton 'Malta Class' carriers. Maybe the Americans will respond with 12 Forrestals.[/QUOTE]

The American's are always overcompensating; you know the saying Big Car, Small ****.

[Byzer Bob]

The most worrying development is in the worsening relationship between the UK and the USA. I sincerely hope that cooler heads are brought to bear on this issue soon.
Keep up the great work

[The Oncoming Storm]

OK, back on topic

Originally Posted by Devolved

The triumphalist narrator on movietone news said "They wanted to conquer the world but all they have to show is the world's longest conga"

Casablanca was another milestone in the decline in Anglo-American relations. It was to the credit of both leaders that they continued to give a facade of unity to the world.

An invasion date of March 25th was set. For Sicily.

Uh-oh, this could be another one of Winnie's bright ideas, given the frostiness of the Casablanca Conference if Sicily goes badly then Britain will lose a lot of influence in the alliance. Could be some interesting ramifications for the post war World.

New Guinea

January 1943

An attack by the US 32nd Division on Buna was defeated and then counter attacked as Japanese reinforcements were landed and rushed into battle. The American casualties were appalling with over 1,000 men dead from enemy action, disease and accidents. The divisional commander was fired by MAcArthur and an investigation was called for into how this could have happened. Soon questions were asked of MacArthur too.

The American attack, however helped the Australians. The Japanese on the Kokoda trail had their reinforcements diverted to fightingthe Americans. As a result the Australians were able to continue their slow painful push up the track and by the end of the month they were into the Owen Stanley mountains.

So Dugout Doug is on thin ice? Can't see him surviving another setback.

And the Germans managed to escape the Caucasus' they're still in at least as bad a situation as IOTL and as you said in a previous update Germany's fate is pretty much sealed at this point.

Great work as ever can't wait for the next updates!

[Shaby]

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

Uh-oh, this could be another one of Winnie's bright ideas, given the frostiness of the Casablanca Conference if Sicily goes badly then Britain will lose a lot of influence in the alliance. Could be some interesting ramifications for the post war World.

Yeah, but what happens if Limeys pull Sicily off, and Americans lose few of their divisions in some beach at Pas de Calais?

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Devolved

Read a couple of pages back and your questions are answered.

Sorry, I'm on page 30 right now.
I'm reading this TL for 3 days allready and I must say: sterling job!!!
Please continue, I hope that I will catch up by tommorow evening.

[Sam R.]

Its been quite obvious for a number of pages, a large number of pages, that Devolved believes the special relationship came about due to British weakness, as a result of OTL being a cavalcade of British failure and poor luck.

I'm enjoying this "realist" view of anglophone diplomacy.

yours,
Sam R.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

The OP is RIGHT about keeping Bomber Command on ASW duty. Not so much for killing subs as saving bombers for future operations. Imagine a Bomber Command running tactical strikes following D-Day in daylight with air superiority. 6000 heavy bomber sorties per day! Gotta luv it.

I hope this wouldnt mean the USAAF doing the same..which would make Normandy unsafe for anyone on the ground....

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

OTL they did. And you're right. Whole companies were smashed because of misguided bombs. OTOH, along with shelling, those strikes were forcing the Germans to feed their troops into a slaughterhouse. You actually had troops requesting transfer to the Russian Front! There at least it was man against man, and tank against tank.

I was thinking more of the (German) comment.
When the Luftwaffe comes over, the allies duck
When the RAF comes over, we duck
When the Americans come over, EVERYBODY ducks....

[Sam R.]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

I don't see Churchill, the Ameriphile (half-American, with an American mother), telling FDR (his best friend in American politics) to essentially Go. To. Hell. That's not Churchill speaking. Its the OP. The Battle of the Atlantic is still at its height, and there is still the little matter of US Lend-Lease keeping Britain economically afloat. Even the US ended WWII almost on the brink of bankruptcy. Anyone want to argue Britain was doing even as well, much less better? Churchill's behavior ITTL is what I would have expected of a surviving PM Neville Chamberlain, not Winston.

I cannot disagree more strongly than you. Your analysis of history is deeply flawed. Churchill is not his cabinet, nor is he his ministry, nor state. iOTL in interally bargaining the UK faced the US from a position of great weakness. iTTL, the UK is in a much stronger bargaining position. Historically, Britain was kicked around; particularly in the terms of trade during the war. These terms in Devolved's timeline are much more heavily weighted in the UK's favour. The UK being irascible about US inefficiencies and poor choices is well within the bounds of potential bargaining iTTL.

yours,
Sam R.

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by Sam R.

I cannot disagree more strongly than you. Your analysis of history is deeply flawed. Churchill is not his cabinet, nor is he his ministry, nor state. iOTL in interally bargaining the UK faced the US from a position of great weakness. iTTL, the UK is in a much stronger bargaining position. Historically, Britain was kicked around; particularly in the terms of trade during the war. These terms in Devolved's timeline are much more heavily weighted in the UK's favour. The UK being irascible about US inefficiencies and poor choices is well within the bounds of potential bargaining iTTL.

yours,
Sam R.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Britain is in a much stronger position so much as ITTL, so far at least, think of it more from the point of view of them being in a less weaker position.

The US and Russia will still come out the top dogs after the war in terms of global power and influence, but Britain might be able to moderate it's decline and be in a position to slightly better control post war recovery.

[Sam R.]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

1) Opinion.

No, you're using a great man theory of history; and it is whiggish in an extreme.

4) They are called U-Boats.

Cash and Carry; Lend Lease (which the UK honoured); and the underpricing of UK intellectual property.

Alt-UK is working their relationship far better, and has already put the US executive in an invidious position through British success, and American poor luck. There is every reason that the UK will "work" this relationship, far harder than iOTL. You seem to have no conception of the terms of trade of the Second War.

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued


North Africa

January 1943


Churchill had got most of what he wanted from the Casablanca conference but he knew he had exhausted a lot of political capital with Roosevelt in order to achieve it. It helped enormously that neither Roosevelt or Marshall seemed to have the faintest idea about strategy. Marshall in particular seemed to just think in terms of throwing countless men at a beach and everything else would just follow. Alan Brooke wrote in his diary that he found George Marshalls lack of military knowledge appalling for a man of his position.

On technical details too Roosevelt's team lacked knowledge and expertise. Questions put to them about landing craft, airpower and logistics were answered to the effect of let's make the committment first and they will be made available. As a result the British team quickly learned that if they wanted to win an argument they only had to turn the discussion to technical details.

To many of the Americans the British Mediterranean strategy was a giant trap where the British were trying to bamboozle the US into using their immense resources to achieve British Imperial aims. There had also been a suspicion that the British were scared of the Germans and that the British army wasn't up to fighting. This attitude had diminished significantly after Gazala but there was still a feeling that the British would lead them into a Gallipoli style sideshow which would prolong the war.

In the end what clinched it was that the earliest a cross channel landing could happen would be June 1943. That would mean 5 months of inactivity in which the Russians would be doing all the fighting. This was politically unacceptable to everyone. So Sicily it would be.

Finally as a flourish Churchill said that taking Sicily would open up the Mediterranean to merchant shipping and half the journey times to Asia. This would mean more supplies for the Chinese and British and thereby helping them to tie down more Japanese divisions. Churchill of course couldn't care less about 'Generalissimo' Chiang and was only fleetingly interested in the sideshow of the war against Japan but he thought it was important to make the point.

One final victory won by Churchill was to persuade Roosevelt not to push for a public declaration on 'Unconditional Surrender'. Churchill argued that it would strengthen the Axis not weaken them and that it was unnecessary. He went further and said it was insulting to Britain that had refused a conditional peace in 1940 when she was alone to now commit to no negotiation when final victory was in sight. He knew that the declaration was for Stalin's benefit but after the insults he had been forced to endure in early 1942 he was in no more mood to kow-tow to Stain. "He will have to be content with the sacrifices made by our brave seaman to deliver much needed materials to him" he told Roosevelt.

The President was anxious to please Stalin so he cabled his own message to the dictator telling him that

'You have my word of honor as President of the United States that the US government will never make any seperate deals with any Axis power. You can rest assured that we are as one in this struggle and I share your conviction in creating a better world free from the twin evils of Fascism and Imperialism'

-------

Churchill couldn't help but cry as he visited British troops in the old Roman Amphitheatre in Carthage. It appealed to his love of history and his role in making it. He noticed that the morale of the troops seemed to be much higher than a year earlier when they often appeared sullen and cynical. In some cases he remembered hearing the officers ordering the men to smile for the newsreel cameras. But now it was different. The smiles were genuine, they marched a little faster and saluted with more conviction.

He gave a typical Churchillian speech using flowery phrases that the average British soldier didn't understand but no one seemed to care. They cheered and shouted and said they were ready to pursue the Germans to the Reichstag.

Churchill then went to Tripoli where he marvelled at the statues of Mussolini. "Do you think anyone will make a statue of me?" he joked with the journalist entourage that followed him. He was in Tripoli to visit the 8th Army and again made a speech to the troops gathered in the Roman Amphitheatre of Leptis Magna. He then cried more tears as the pipers of the 51st Highland Division marched past and then got down to business.

Churchill was generally satsified with the 8th Army but he was less than impressed by Auchinleck. He had received numerous reports of his poor choice of subordinates and odd decision making that had confused the troops. He was also aware of how close the army came to losing Gazala and it was only the last minute appointment of Maitland Wilson that had saved the day. On the other hand Auchinleck was still a good general and he had delivered victories. Unfortunately he was not the man to lead the British into Europe.

After a difficult meeting he informed Auchinleck that he would be the CinC of all forces in the Middle East and North Africa. This was a kind of promotion but as Auchinleck knew only too well, a promotion away from the war. He then informed Maitland Wilson that he would lose 8th Army. Instead he would be the new Army Group commander for the Sicily invasion with 8th Army going to Montgomery. As commander of the invasion he would have the British 8th Army and the newly formed US 7th Army (Fredendall) under his control. Eisenhower would remain Allied Supreme commander but in a role that would be purely political. Meanwhile the First Army would exist as a feeder army under the command of Gott who although liked by Churchill had also failed to shine in his control of troops and armour.

TBC

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued

Germany

January 1943

Life in Germany for the average citizen was better than in Britain. The rationing and shortages were not as bad as those in other countries and everywhere their troops stood on conquered soil. Apart from the occasional raids on coastal towns the skies above were clear of bombers. It was easy for many to forget that there was a war at all.

The victories between September 1939 to December 1941 had already catapulted Hitler to the realms of immortality and the German people overwhelmingly loved him. The setbacks between December 1941 and February 1942 were just that, only setbacks. First Rommel and then the army in the east pushed the enemy back and the business of victory had been resumed.

The news of Gazala had barley registered as the German army resumed its offensive in the east pushing the Bolsheviks back to Stalingrad. Then Stalingrad continued to be mentioned even though they had been told it had fallen. Then came El Agheila. This was the first time the Afrika Korps had lost TWICE. Then Stalingrad stayed in the news. Why hadn't the army moved on? Then Tripoli fell. Then the Allies landed in Algeria. Still Stalingrad was in the news. Then surrender in Africa. Ten days later came confirmation that Stalingrad was the scene of a fight for survival. Then defeat. Between October and January the war had changed everywhere.

Goebbels now had made speeches calling for total war.

Glory would now lie in sacrifice for the Fatherland rather than in celebrating victories.

The German economy now went into overdrive.

TBC

[Astrodragon]

The USA enacted L-L because it was in Americas best interest. If it had been for Britains, the terms would have been quite different. It was quite in their rights for them to do so, but please dont put it forward as some noble heroic thing done with no thought to the cost.

And it took a LONG time to get much of it. And when we did, they reneged on a lot of it. In fact, they also reneged on a lot of paid-for-in-cash contracts.

While there were exceptions, the general political US attitude at the time seemed to be that the USA would fight the Nazis to the last Briton...

[Some Bloke]

Will Gott have a chance to prove himself ITTL?

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued


Guadalcanal

January 22nd - Janauary 24th 1943

The Japanese fleet left Rabaul carrying 11,000 troops and escorted by the carriers Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu and the returning Zuiho. Taiyo had been sent home. They also had the battleships Kirishima, Hiei, Fuso and Yamashiro. along with 4 Heavy and 3 Light cruisers plus 17 destroyers. The plan to use 6 battleships was abandoned due to lack of destroyer escorts.

The Americans had observed the build up in Rabaul with anxiety. They had launched a raid consisting of 7 B17's losing 3 bombers in the process. However, they did shoot down a Zero and one of their bombs hit an oil tanker causing a fire. The US Navy mobilized a fleet to counter and Admiral Fletcher again led his fleet consisting of Wasp and Saratoga plus the battleships South Dakota and Alabama along with 3 heavy and 2 light cruisers plus 15 destroyers. The Renown had been sent to the US for repairs and a refit.

Fletcher knew that with the Hood and Formidable on their way plus the Yorktown coming available soon and the USS Essex close to undergoing trials he could now be more aggressive.

On the island the Marines and the Japanese shelled each other and raided each other in ways that an earlier generation on the western front would have found familiar. In this battle the Americans had better artillery with the 75mm pack howitzer being particularly useful.

On January 23rd the Japanese were attacked by 2 US submarines. The Japanese destroyers sank one in a long battle that pulled them out of position allowing the other to get in amongst the fleet and put 2 torpedoes into the Akagi. As a result the Akagi was forced to return to Rabaul escorted by 2 destroyers.

The Japanese force was then bombed by a force of 9 Australian Hudsons. The Japanese CAP shot down 4 of them for the loss of a Zero. The raid did no damage.

Fletcher was too late to launch a day strike so he had to wait until morning. To do this he had to get closer to Guadalcanal. To intercept the invasion convoy he took the risk of sending his Battleships with 3 cruisers and 9 destroyers ahead to Cape Espearance and catch them by surprise. This had all been agreed in advance. The time had come to take risks and start fighting the enemy.

The risks became all too apparent when in the darkness the USS Augusta was hit by 3 torpedoes from a submarine and went down after 40 minutes. The submarine also warned the invasion force and the Japanese battleships went to intercept. The dilemma for the Japanese was whether or not to land the troops as planned. In the end they decided to hold back and wait for the enemy to be dealt with.

The Japanese were worried about sending their capital ships into the straits but if the American battleships were there then they considered it worth the risk. As often happens in surface engagements it was the destroyers that collided first. The Japanese launched their Long Lance torpedoes and soon a USN destroyer was blown apart by two hits. The Americans and Japanese now opened fire. The cruisers then joined in and again the Japanese scored hits without reply. The USS Alabama was the first battleship to fire, sending a 16" shell into the heavy cruiser Takao followed quickly by 3 more. Then the Japanese battleships arrived.

Soon the sea was full of shell splashes and debris. The South Dakota was hit by 6 14" shells and the Alabama by 4 14" shells. In return the Kirishima was hit 3 times by 16" shell and the Fuso hit 6 times and Hiei once. Around them 4 US and 2 Japanese destroyers had been sunk with one American light cruiser crippled. Very soon the US cruiser was finished off by 2 torpedoes while the Fuso was hit by a torpedo too.

Meanwhile the invasion convoy had held its position while the carnage raged. This made them a perfect target for another US submarine. Soon a troop transport was hit by a torpedo followed by 2 torpedoes hitting a supply ship carrying howitzers. Both ships sank while the submarine made its escape.

The sea battle continued with South Dakota being hit by two Long Lance Torpedoes. By now she had been hit by 9 14" shells while the Alabama had been hit 7 times. In reply the Kirishima was hit 5 times and was on fire, the Fuso was forced to withdraw after 8 16" hits including one to her huge tower. Hiei had been hit 3 times plus a torpedo hit. Only the Yamashiro was untouched. The Americans had now lost 2 cruisers and 5 destroyers but had sunk 3 Japanese destroyers and crippled a heavy cruiser. With the Fuso withdrawing and the captain of Kirishima dead the Japanese suddenly turned away and headed north and as they did so they scuttled their crippled heavy cruiser which turned out to be the Takao.

With the sea full of screaming sailors and burnt bodies the Americans had won. The Japanese invasion convoy was ordered to proceed and land their troops as the Japanese knew the American force would be too damaged to stop them. However, they had lost 450 of their 11,000 men and all their artillery.

Eastern Front

The fall of Stalingrad (although isolated units refused to surrender and fought on) released large Soviet forces for use against the Germans who were now being pushed back from the Don. By this stage the Germans had only 500 operational tanks on the whole front and were 450,000 men below strength. The Italians had lost all but one division as the Soviets extended the scope of their operations. The Germans were now used to this style of waging war and they waited for the Russians to burn themselves out.

TBC