Alterntive History Armoured Fighting Vehicles

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Claymore

Claymore

The premise for this thread is for folks to come up with ideas for realistic alternative-history-AFVs. I will say right from the start that I am not looking for the loony nazi-like ideas of sticking battleship turrets on monstrous tracked movers. Rather I am looking for believable developments, variants or new models that would support some of the excellent TLs in this forum or indeed any other AH TL.

Pretty much anything is fair game, except that ideas should be justified with suitable developmental lines and be within the bounds of practicality - turret ring sizes are usually a good limiting factor for AFVs - so no fitting Panther turrets onto Mk1 Panzers please!!!

My ultimate aim will be to build some of your ideas in 1:35 scale, if possible, but if there are any other modellers out there or CGI gurus please feel free to post your work.

To get the ball rolling, I already have some AH AFVs for your consideration…
 
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Claymore

Claymore

Panther III

This design started as a concept within an AH wargame that I designed way back in 2002 and which saw a Nazi Germany survive WW2 only to be embroiled in WW3 later in the early 1990s. I needed an AFV that filled the gap between the Panther I / Panther II and the Leopard I where IOTL the Germans used the US M-47 and M-48. (Note: I also posted this design as a suggestion for CalBear’s The Anglo-American - Nazi War Panther III)

The logic for my design is as follows:
· The original Panther's excellent combination of firepower, mobility, and protection served as a benchmark for other nations' late war and immediate post-war tank designs, and it is frequently regarded as one of the best tank designs of World War II. However, some design flaws, such as its weak final drive units, were never corrected. The Panther's suspension was also complicated to manufacture and the interleaved system made replacing inner road wheels time consuming. The turret was also relatively small and did not easily allow for upgrading its main gun.

​
· The Panther II was never really a development of the origenal Panther, rather it was a parallel development which intended to share many of the components of the Tiger II. It continued to have many of the same design flaws of the Panther I but was heavier and underpowered. WW2 finishes before any major advantages of the Panther II design are realised and as a design it is quickly dropped in favour of the more numerous and reliable Panther I.

· With the end of WW2, German defence plans call for an improvement in the quality of their AFVs over the need for mass production and so the design bureas look at improving the Panther I to meet and exceed Soviet and Western tanks.

· The Germans are first to embrace the MBT concept of a universal tank which will combine the very best aspects of armoured protection, firepower and maneouveability. The Panther III is conceived.

· The interleaved suspension is replaced with a more reliable single bogey and torsion bar system with return rollers for a better track ride.

· The turret ring is enlarged to accept an entirely new turret mounting a 105mm rifled cannon whch out performs the US 90mm, British 20pdr and the Soviet 85mm of the day. The turret also accommodates a sterioscopic sighting system.

· The bow gunner’s position has been removed to allow for more ammunition storage. Crew reduced to 4.
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The end result is a tank that looks right. This particular Panther III is 2nd tank, 3rd platoon, 4th company of the 31st Panzer Regiment of 5th Panzer Division circa 1954. The Panther III was eventually replaced, in German service, by the Leopard 1 which, ITTL, starts life looking more like the OTL Leopard 1A3.

The model itself contains parts from a Tamiya Panther Ausf D (what I had available), Academy M-60 Patton, Italeri Leopard 1 and various bits of scratch build.

Panther III.jpg
 
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Claymore

Claymore

Stug Sherman

The StuG Sherman as a concept initially came to my attention from Life in Black as mentioned in Hairogs’s TL World War III in May 1946 although he also has his own thread, AHC: StuG Sherman which goes into greater detail and discussion. The idea immediately caught my imagination and rekindled my interest in AH AFVs.

Although I initially built and painted the model in US Army colours, I could not really come up with a good enough reason as to why the US would have gone down this particular route given their OTL preference for turreted tank destroyers. I could be persuaded though if someone can up with a TL where the US instead decided to copy the German concept and produced fixed larger gunned tank destroyers on standard tank chassis.

I eventually, repainted my model in IDF colours, postulating that the Israelis, with their ability to adapt just about anything to their needs, may have developed a StuG type Sherman as a relatively cheap way of utilising their existing stock of redundant Shermans to increase their AT defences. A similar use of old Shermans as the IDF Makmat 160mm mortar carrier and L-33 155mm SPG.

Just suppose that in the early 60s as the Centurion is entering front line service a number of Sherman hulls are made available for conversion into dedicated tank destroyers. Knowing that they face potential enemies on many fronts and that their armoured force cannot concentrate on more than one at a time, a plan is developed to increase the AT firepower of the Infantry formations who will have to conduct holding actions until relieved by the hard pressed armoured divisions. Enter the 90mm armed "StuG" Sherman; although not many were ever produced, they were a firm favourite of the infantry in the early phase of the 6-Day War.

Depicted is the 1st vehicle of the 2 platoon, 2nd Company, 2nd Battalion, Tank Destroyer Command attached to the Golani Brigade.

The model itself contains parts from an Academy Sherman M4A3E8, Revell Kanone Jadgpanzer, and various bits of scratch build.

IDF StuG Sherman.jpg
 
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Claymore

Claymore

T-50/M-47 Patton

This idea comes thanks to Mad Missouri who introduced the design into Hairogs’s TL World War III in May 1946.

The premise is that in a renewed war against the Soviet Union, the USA are not impressed with the poor performance of their M-26 Pershing (nicknamed the ‘Pushing’ after its numerous mechanical problems). In a radical move to improve their heavy armour, the US decide to adapt the new British designed Centurion to their own needs. With the already proven 90mm gun, the US blend a new turret design onto a modified Centurion hull.

Essentially, a T-42 turret (as was fitted to the OTL M-47) is mounted on a Centurion hull which has been modified to house a Continental diesel engine with side mounted air filters.

The model itself contains parts from a AFV Club Centurion Mk 5, Italeri M-47 Patton, Academy M-60 Patton and various bits of scratch build.

T-50.jpg
 
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Claymore

Claymore

WII StuG Sherman

The British were the first to field the US designed M7 Priest in North Africa in 1942 and found it extremely useful. However, the design was by no means perfect; the biggest drawback being the US 105mm Howitzer's ammunition that had no match in the UK inventory. Ammunition supply was therefore problematic and an unwelcomed burden on the logistics supply system. This situation was never really resolved until the introduction of the 25-pdr armed Sexton, which like the M7 was intended to be built on an M3/M4 platform. In the end most Sextons were built on Canadian Ram & Grizzly hulls - themselves copies-ish of the M3 and M4 respectively.

Virtually all of the now redundant M7 Priests in UK/Commonwealth service were converted into Kangaroo troop-carrying APCs. Given the retasking of these vehicles, it is not inconceivable that some may have been converted into SP AT vehicles mounting the excellent 17-pdr gun.

Unlike the US who preferred open-topped turreted tank destroyers, the UK did dabble in fixed gun AT armoured vehicles, such as the SP 17-pdr, Valentine, Mk I, Archer. This is probably as close to a StuG Sherman or StuG Lee/Grant as the Western Allies were ever likely to get.

<No photo - On the drawing board>
 
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Claymore

Claymore

Hetzer APC

I have been looking at possible Nazi German APCs to sit along side my Panther III. Essentially there is a gap between the aging Sd.Kfz. 251 type of half-track and the later Hoskis APC and Marder IFV.

Inspired by the prototype BMM Vollkettenaufklärer 38(t) Kätzchen, I looked at the chassis of the Hetzer as a likely candidate for a fully tracked and enclosed APC. It is by no means big and somewhat aged but with a bit of stretch and pull it is still probably the most viable option.

I am, however, looking into the possibility of a Panther-based heavy APC too!

Hetzer APC.png
 
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omega21

Hey, let me just say that your ideas and models look awesome. I used to build models, but 'kitbashing' was always beyond me!
 

Color-Copycat

After buying scale models, I'd never have enough money left to get paints or primer, so my collection is all drab grey plastic :eek:
 

Life In Black

I've got several ideas. First, how about turning an M48 or Leopard 1 into an APC? Second, would it be possible to turn one of them into an MLRS or AMRAAM launcher?:D
 

omega21

Life In Black said:
I've got several ideas. First, how about turning an M48 or Leopard 1 into an APC? Second, would it be possible to turn one of them into an MLRS or AMRAAM launcher?:D
Click to expand...

On that note, perhaps these tank hulls could be made into artillery and logistics platforms. Leopard-mounted mortar or M48 fuel carrier anyone? Trying to be offbeat here.
 

Life In Black

omega21 said:
On that note, perhaps these tank hulls could be made into artillery and logistics platforms. Leopard-mounted mortar or M48 fuel carrier anyone? Trying to be offbeat here.
Click to expand...

Well, for a story I'm working on, I was trying to figure out some use for the thousands of hulls sitting around Europe gathering dust while the Leopard 2A6s and M1A2s have their fun. What better place than here, right?:p
 

omega21

Haha, yup. If they can keep up with the 'classic' armored advance behind the shiny M1s and Leos, bringing them out is an option! Still, are there that many hulls left behind?
 

Life In Black

omega21 said:
Haha, yup. If they can keep up with the 'classic' armored advance behind the shiny M1s and Leos, bringing them out is an option! Still, are there that many hulls left behind?
Click to expand...

Quite a few actually. Going off Wikipedia for the Leopard 1 in Europe:

Germany: 2437 originally
Italy: 720
Greece: 700 (I think. Wiki is a bit confusing here.)
Netherlands: 468
Denmark: 230
Norway: 172
Belgium: 132

As to the M48, Greece has about 470 according to Wikipedia, while the countries Spain, Germany, Norway and Portugal all used it before, no mention though of what happened to them. The M47 was used by Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Austria and Belgium. Throw in a couple hundred AMX-30s as well.
 
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Claymore

Claymore

Color-Copycat said:
Is there a difference between a Hetzer chassis and a Panzer 38(t) chassis aside from the design of the exterior armor?
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No, they are basically one and the same although the Hetzer represents a later evolution of the design.

CalBear said:
Not a Forum Rule question.

Seems like a NP Chat subject.
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OK. As this is my first thread, I was not really sure where it would sit. I take it that you have moved it, looking at the thread address. Thanks :)

omega21 said:
Hey, let me just say that your ideas and models look awesome. I used to build models, but 'kitbashing' was always beyond me!
Click to expand...

Thank you :)

Color-Copycat said:
After buying scale models, I'd never have enough money left to get paints or primer, so my collection is all drab grey plastic :eek:
Click to expand...

Ah yes, release of funds from 'she who must be obeyed' can at times be problematic! :D
 
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