An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by Dragos Cel Mare

Remember that post about Gregoria encouraging Caspian shipping to undercut the Ottomans' position in the Silk Road? That would be an incentive for the Romans to pursue a Personal Union some decades (or a century) down the line.

Got it. I agree also on the timeline. Also the whole georgian thing about modeling their state after the Romans could ease an eventual union. Obviously way down the road Romans would benefit greatly from having access to the caspian sea (oil fields and such).

To be clear, I don't have anything against Georgia remaining independent.

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Both Independence and a Personal Union are good.

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

May I ask why you don't think Italy, Serbia, or Georgia as part of the Empire don't fit as well in this TL as opposed to Isaac's Empire? Is it that here the conquest would be taking place a few hundred years later, allowing those areas to develop more distinct identities?

I recalled a question of Basileus to rldragon:

I understand that the situation is far different, but the formal union between England and Scotland happened in 1707, and they were ruled by the same monarch from 1603 so there is still time for a (working) union between the Roman Empire and Georgia (guessing which would be England and which Scotland is not that hard, even if it would be a more poweful "scotland").

[rldragon]

Well, I did already answer that as far as I am concerned the above mention scenario (the personal union) is certainly possible, maybe even likely, considering that Georgia is Rhomanion's cultural satellite...

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by rldragon

Well, I did already answer that as far as I am concerned the above mention scenario (the personal union) is certainly possible, maybe even likely, considering that Georgia is Rhomanion's cultural satellite...

Not to mention the dynastic ties between Georgia's current king and the Komnenoi.

[Evilprodigy]

Georgia in a personal union with Rhomania would be interesting to say the least, IIRC Georgians were stated as being horrible to the Muslims in their nation but Rhomanians are very tolerant of them but hate Catholics. That could lead to some interesting developments culturally speaking.

[Rich Rostrom]

Originally Posted by Dragos Cel Mare

Rostrom and Ain, are you by chance fanartists? From now on, I'm going to ask this question to any newbie that joins; I want my Dragos Cel Mare fanart and I'm going to get it!

Not even slightly. Amputation of both arms and going blind would not significantly reduce my drawing ability.

[Elfwine]

I'm not sure Serbia really would have all that distinct an identity from Rhomania. Serbia, OTL, was heavily influenced even after being politically independent (if not as strong) - why would it be less so here?

So I think the main problem is the military aspect - and Serbia is smack dab in the right part of the Balkans for guerillia hell.

Not impossible to overcome - see Basil II to Bulgaria four centuries earlier - but problematic.

And then there's administering it. Serbia's princes seem to have liked independence a lot more than submission (how this increases or not in this timeline is a good question, as a centralized Serbia neutralizes those tendencies, but a Serbia feeling it can stand on its own...so it balances out in my opinion).

[Rich Rostrom]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

Arrix85: It is, and you recall my words correctly.

Rich Rostrom: Thanks for your compliments and criticisms. I see what you mean. I've added a section to the post to help clarify the situation, which I'm also sticking at the bottom of this post. I hope it allays your concerns and that you continue to enjoy the TL.

Since there have been concerns over the German petition to Constantinople, the following section has been added. For readers' convenience I am also posting it here. Hope it answers your questions.

But Russia is not the only Orthodox state to which Hans Leopold turns in his hour of need. On the same day that the archontes arrive in Pomerania, a delegation representing most of the larger, secular, independent German princes arrives in Constantinople. Even without the archbishoprics and the minor German states, it is still an impressive delegation. There, in exchange for Constantinople forcing Bavaria to back down, they will recognize Demetrios Komnenos as the Holy Roman Emperor.

The offer is not made because of any sort of love or good will between the northern Germans and the Romans, for there is none. However the Germans have nowhere else to turn. Denmark, Poland, and Hungary are not trustworthy, and neither is Lotharingia. Hans Leopold will absolutely not tolerate a Lotharingian emperor, as the then-duchy of Burgundy extorted Frisia from Saxony in the 1410s, when the German duchy was busy conquering Brandenburg while Andrew III invaded Austria for the first time. The Plantaganet Empire (as the kingdom of England-France is often called) is an option, but King Edward VI is a personal friend of King Louis I of Lotharingia, which automatically earns him Hans Leopold’s hatred. Arles and the Iberian kingdoms are too far away or weak to force Bavaria to back down. With approaching Constantinople, the princes also hope that Conrad II’s touchiness over the Imperial title might prompt the Bavarian monarch to grant concessions in exchange for re-recognition of his title.

This is a valiant attempt to salvage the proposition, but it's just not possible.

First, the secular princes of the Empire cannot act without reference to the clerical princes; not unless they are engaged in a religious transformation comparable to the Reformation. Most of the clerical princes are sons, brothers, uncles, or nephews of secular princes.

Second, OTL Friesland was awarded to the Duke of Saxony in 1499; previously it had no overlord.

Third, the Duke of Burgundy is the most important secular prince in the HRE, being Count Palatine of Burgundy (Franche-Comté), Count of Artois, Count of Flanders, Count of Holland, Duke of Brabant, Margrave of Antwerp, Duke of Luxemburg, Count of Zeeland, Count of Hainault, Duke of Limburg, and Margrave of Namur. (Roughly - ATL Burgundy may have different fiefs. Plus more of France, after the Anglo-Burgundian victory and breakup of the kingdom.) Is he going to back this?

(A side note here: IIRC, the Anglo-Franco-Burgundian settlement left the Duke independent in his major French fiefs: Burgundy and Nevers. Picardy would be held of the Plantagenet King of France. The Duke could proclaim himself King of Lotharingia (consisting of Burgundy and Nevers). But attaching his HRE fiefs to this new title would violate his obligations as vassal of the Emperor, and interfere drastically with the status of his vassals as noblemen of the HRE. It would take immense political and military skill to pull it off.)

Fourth, the second most important secular prince in the HRE is the King of Bohemia. He's not allied with the Emperor, but he's not at war with him, either, AFAIK. He won't touch this with an 18-foot pikestaff.

Seriously - this idea is beyond salvage. Retcon it out and go on. I don't want to be so imperative when I've just become active here - but this is a really, really, really bad idea.

If the Duke of Saxony is as desperate as indicated - then he bites the bullet and submits. The Emperor has a lot of other things on his plate, and can't afford to focus exclusively on killing Saxony. He's already suffered one costly defeat. So they make a deal.

BTW, this is mainly his problem. I really don't see how the other secular princes come to view this conflict as a life-and-death matter for them. Saxony overreaches; the Emperor puts him down. This doesn't translate into a constitutional crisis threatening the autonomy of every prince.

I say again: I don't wish to throw my weight around - but this is way too much to be overlooked. I just can't.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Rich Rostrom

I say again: I don't wish to throw my weight around - but this is way too much to be overlooked. I just can't.

Why is it impossible?

Your arguments suggest that it happening IRL would be incredibly unlikely to put it mildly, but with a POD two centuries earlier, why would the circumstances of 1400 or so look the same in terms of how the princes react (which seems to be the primary issue)?

And picking "OTL Frisia had no overlord" as if that couldn't have been different TTL...

I'm just left feeling less than convinced. Especially by the idea that the memories of the crusades will be a real influence on German attitudes now. In 1200? Yes. In 1300? Maybe. 1400? How much is anyone going to remember about Conrad III? How much will anyone remember about Barbarossa's problems with the "Greeks"? (After that we get into ATL events)

[Basileus444]

brokenman: Ah, okay. I understand. That is a possibility, however I stand by an earlier statement that Ethiopia can't make too much headway into Muslim east Africa (Ethiopia is more powerful than the local Muslims, but they can draw on a huge pool of ghazis-this is based on my understanding of OTL Ethiopian history) unless Islam is significantly distracted.

Dragos Cel Mare: The princes are motivated by desperation more than hatred. Hopefully the edit to the edit at the bottom of the post will make their reasoning clear.

rldragon: That makes perfect sense. Conquering Georgia would be exceedingly difficult. Storming the Caucasus mountains that are guarded by Georgian skutatoi and dismounted kataphraktoi, that'll go well. That's what any would-be invader of Georgia, at least of the heartland would face. A personal union is much more likely, considering the extremely strong cultural and diplomatic ties between Tbilisi and Constantinople. However I do have a very large soft spot for an independent, powerful Georgia.

Arrix85: The Caspian trade has already been pointed out. I don't know, maybe the resorts? Villas on Georgia's Black Sea coast are becoming popular amongst the dynatoi (deliberately encourages by Tbilisi since it brings Roman coin into the region). However until the exploitation of the Baku oil fields, there isn't a big pressing need for Constantinople to expand in the area.

eliphas8: That's a big thing in favor of a personal union. The Laskarids build up a tradition of marrying the Georgian royal family, and the Komnenoi are continuing it.

Evilprodigy: That is one big difference. If the Roman Empire-Georgia thing remained solely a personal union (this is not to be taken as an implication it will exist, mind you), you might see the ruler as King of Georgia persecuting Muslims while at the same time as Emperor using them in his administration.

Rich Rostrom: I see your point, but I'm still convinced the idea is feasible, even if the details needed to be worked on. I've made an edit to the edit, which is posted at the bottom. The delegation got shrunken and more specific in composition, and I made it explicit that Conrad is the one turning this into a constitutional crisis and a life-and-death struggle. As for Frisia, I'm chalking that up to butterflies, mainly because I don't want to have to go back and edit the maps. I hope you understand.

Elfwine: Yeah, Serbia is perfect terrain for guerrillas. Ironically, the best way for Constantinople to rule the area is to restore the Serbian princes. Essentially do a Bulgaria and break it up into a series of vassals; the Serbian princes prefer independence to submission, but they prefer submission to the non-existence they've gotten under the centralized Serbian monarchy.


Edit to the German edit: Has also been put in the appropriate update.

But Russia is not the only Orthodox state to which Hans Leopold turns in his hour of need. On the same day that the archontes arrive in Pomerania, a delegation representing the Duke of Saxony, the Landgrave of Hesse, the Duke of Westphalia, the Count of Mark, and the Duke of Julich-Berg arrives in Constantinople. There, in exchange for Constantinople forcing Bavaria to back down, they will recognize Demetrios Komnenos as the Holy Roman Emperor.

The offer is not made because of any sort of love or good will between the northern Germans and the Romans, for there is none. However the Germans have nowhere else to turn. Denmark, Poland, and Hungary are not trustworthy, and neither is Lotharingia. Hans Leopold will absolutely not tolerate a Lotharingian emperor, as the then-duchy of Burgundy extorted Frisia from Saxony in the 1410s (who had inherited it in the 1380s), when the German duchy was busy conquering Brandenburg while Andrew III invaded Austria for the first time.

The Plantaganet Empire (as the kingdom of England-France is often called) is an option, but King Edward VI is a personal friend of King Louis I of Lotharingia, which automatically earns him Hans Leopold’s hatred. Arles and the Iberian kingdoms are too far away or weak to force Bavaria to back down. With approaching Constantinople, the princes also hope that Conrad II’s touchiness over the Imperial title might prompt the Bavarian monarch to grant concessions in exchange for re-recognition of his title.

This option is made after Hans Leopold had already sued for peace. However Conrad, smarting after Austria’s exit from the Empire, is in no mood to be generous as Saxony’s resources now appear to be utterly spent. Conrad demands that Hans Leopold will step down as Duke of Saxony and Brandenburg, retiring to a prepared estate in Tyrol, signing over the duchies to Conrad himself. Hans’ response is simple: “I was born a prince; I will die a prince.” The war would go on. The other German princes who comprise the rest of the delegation join because they realize that a united Bavaria-Saxony-Brandenburg could take on the rest of the HRE combined (with the caveat that one excluded Lotharingia/Burgundy, but that could be easily done by Bavaria-Saxony forming an alliance with Arles, as Charles I of Arles has already started complaining about Lotharingian harassment of Rhone River traffic).

Meanwhile dreams of uniting the Roman Empire, of restoring the unity destroyed by Charlemagne, dance in the eyes of the Greeks. But cold reality soon puts a stop to that dream. The German princes here are willing to accept an emperor in Constantinople because he would be too far away to threaten them. But that distance means that the Romans cannot hurt the Bavarians. If they used the Adriatic to ferry an army, they would have to pass through Venetian territories. A march overland all the way to Bavaria would be slow, consume huge amounts of supplies, and be at the mercy of Hungary. While relations with Buda are good, Demetrios and Theodoros are not willing to risk an army on them. Thus the Germans are turned away empty-handed.

There is also the fact that the princes here represent a minority of the lords of the Holy Roman Empire, an admittedly wealthy and powerful minority, but still a minority. Maintaining real Imperial rule in Germany would be virtually impossible even if distance wasn’t a factor, for the Kings of Bohemia and the Dukes of Burgundy (as the Kings of Lotharingia are in the HRE-their royal territory pertains to their French territories) have not weighed into the contest, but would immediately oppose a Greek army dispatched to the region.

[Basileus444]

All that talk about Germans has made me tired. I want to sit down; oh, look, ottomans!


"According to Ioannes Pachymeres, on the field of Cappadocian Caesarea as Timur's army overwhelmed the Athanatoi and Emperor Theodoros III Laskaris, Demetrios Komnenos swore that Rhomanion would not die on his watch. He kept that oath."-Excerpt from The Life of Demetrios Megas

1439: Osman II, despite poor health, is personally present at the fall of Hormuz. The pesky emirate had fought extremely well on both land and sea, preventing the Ottomans from ever being able to fully blockade the city. Due to that failure, the great port had managed to hold off an Ottoman siege for the last eighteen months, even though the attackers were supported by fifteen Ottoman cannons, their first use of the weapons. Their technique is improving though and experiments have begun to create hand cannons.

More immediately promising though is the performance of the urban azabs. The program has since expanded, with every town in the Ottoman domain with a population over five thousand having to field a certain quota of troops. Although not as well armored as their Persian opponents, being mostly clad in mail armor from the Roman Empire, they are far superior to the rural azabs. Still drilled by old janissaries, they are proficient at pinning smaller but heavier Persian formations, allowing janissaries to make a killing blow on the flanks and rear. With rural azabs, the anvil often broke before the hammer could get into position.

Although only Mazandaran and the Persian Gulf coast have fallen into Ottoman hands, the sipahis and janissaries are also showing equipment improvements, both through trade with the Georgians and Venetians and the acquisition of Persian foundries and equipment. Many of the janissaries in the first few ranks are now equipped with a steel lamellar cuirass, although further back they remain clad in leather lamellar. As a result of these reforms, the Ottomans are performing better in the field, although due to the size of Persia and the martial skills of its inhabitants, progress is still slow.

In Constantinople, as a corollary to the recently begun military reforms, the Emperor Theodoros conducts a substantial restructuring of the tax districts. During the War of the Five Emperors, the various contenders had managed to gain the loyalty of their troops because they were able to pay them without Constantinople. They had been able to do that because every nine tax districts were completely bounded by one theme. With no territorial overlap between the economic and military districts, it was distressingly easy for the latter to gain complete control of the former.

Now the Empire is divided into ten prefectures, each of which is divided into ten provinces. These are deliberately designed so that no one prefecture is entirely within one theme. The tax gatherers, who still have the right to call up tagma soldiers to enforce tax payments if needed, report to the prefects. The prefects are given a handsome salary, but are forbidden to purchase any country land (including renting), engage in another form of business or trade, and may not purchase a townhouse in any city other than the capital (renting is allowed). Also they are required to keep their primary residence and family in Constantinople.

To the south Barsbay finally manages to break the deadlock in the Mameluke Civil War when he succeeds in capturing the port of Aqaba. More importantly though, he gains the allegiance of the Hedjaz. Not only does it give him substantial prestige as defender of the Holy Cities of Islam, but also the Hedjazi fleet. Although small it is more than a match for the primary Mameluke Red Sea fleet which has yet to recover from its defeat at Sajid Island. However the support of the Hedjaz does come at the price of certain promises to the Hedjazi imams. However because of the Roman attack on Tripoli, they are not conditions Barsbay finds distasteful.

Over the past twenty years a movement has been growing amongst the Hedjazi imams, which received a significant boost when Turkmen chiefs fled south after the Harrowing of the North. Its main tenets are a stricter, more literal interpretation of the Koran and a much greater emphasis placed on the lesser jihad, the struggle against the infidel.

It is born out of a sense in Sunni Islam that the tide is going against them. In the west the Marinids have lost ground for the first time in a hundred years. To the north, the Blue Horde has been dismembered by the infidel, who even now is turning his gaze east across the Volga. To the east, the Empire of Vijayanagar continues to shine strongly, not only fighting Islam in India with distressing effectiveness, but also dispatching subsidies and fleets to Indonesia to bolster Hindu princes against the shoots of Islam in the Far East. There those efforts are joined by two expansionist Hindu kingdoms, Champa and Majapahit. It is highly possible that Islam will lose both India and Indonesia.

But most of the rhetoric is directed against one state, the Roman Empire. Not only did it expel Islam from Anatolia and Armenia, but it is also the closest threat, with the possible exception of Ethiopia, to the Holy Cities of Islam. There is also the worrying fact that its over a million Muslims seem perfectly content to be ruled by a Christian Empire. That is, of course, due to the extremely high degree of religious toleration for Muslims in the Empire, a wisely maintained feature from the days of Manuel II Laskaris. Except for a few high-ranking positions, the bureaucracy and army are open to Muslims. Soldiers participating on the hajj forfeit their pay because of the reviews they miss, but are not otherwise penalized.

Nevertheless, the realities of living in a Christian state still led to conversion. Now the Empire is 10% Muslim; in 1300 it was 35% Muslim. That makes the Romans a grave threat in the eyes of the Hedjazi imams. For if anyone could turn back Islam in its heartland, over which the Empire looms ominously, it would be them.

However for the moment Barsbay’s attention is focused on Egypt, not Anatolia. With the use of the Hedjazi fleet, he is able to ferry troops to Suakin, outflanking the Mameluke forces barring the Sinai. After a forced march, he is hammering at the gates of Cairo. After a three week siege the city capitulates, and with it all of Egypt. The armies in the Sinai surrender shortly afterward, although Barsbay takes the precaution of having their generals poisoned shortly afterwards. The Mameluke Sultanate is once again whole.

The speed of Egypt’s fall prevented the Roman government from coming to the aid of the Cairo government as had been planned. A convoy from Rhodes bearing supplies for the Mameluke armies arrived at Alexandria to find that Barsbay’s forces were already in control of the port. For the sake of appearances, the convoy commander made a show of trying to sell the supplies to the Damascenes/Mamelukes. After haggling over the price, the convoy left, not fooling Barsbay for a second.

In Constantinople, Demetrios can no longer hide his rapidly failing health. Despite his best efforts, Giorgios Doukas can do nothing to halt the Emperor’s decline. Just a few days after his sixtieth birthday, he breathes his last. Like his co-emperor Manuel Doukas, the last words on his lips are “Manzikert, victory.” He is buried at the Monastery of Aghios Theodoros Megas just outside Constantinople. Shortly afterwards, he is accorded the title Megas by Patriarch Adem (Adam), the first to be so honored since Theodoros II.

He had restored the empire’s unity and power, guarded her against the Lord of Asia, and sent Roman armies to lands and seas untouched even by Justinian himself. In all the lands of Orthodoxy, now fully recovered from the disastrous 13th century, he is mourned and remembered. He had also founded the Second Komnenid Dynasty; like the first, it would see the greatest and vilest of men wear the purple, take the Empire to heights of glory and the edge of ruin, embodying all the best and worst aspects of man.

End Part 5: Twilight of Heroes

Next: A Timurid Interlude, Part 1: The Fall of China, and Part 2: The Dance of Destruction

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by The Guy Whose Byzantines Finally Did Something about Bulgaria*

Yeah, Serbia is perfect terrain for guerrillas. Ironically, the best way for Constantinople to rule the area is to restore the Serbian princes. Essentially do a Bulgaria and break it up into a series of vassals; the Serbian princes prefer independence to submission, but they prefer submission to the non-existence they've gotten under the centralized Serbian monarchy.

If they do that, this rests on them being small princelings, however - otherwise that just means OTL's problems (as in, the things Alexius II took twenty years to, between this and other things, beat into a state of submission that will pass on to his heirs in my timeline). Serbians are like Armenians without the fact the Armenians find serving the Byzantine state to be good employment.

Namely, ornery, canny, and quite capable of learning from how good Romans are at politics.

As for the HRE situation as it stands now, my thoughts:

So what we have here are the princes who find so-called Emperor (there can only be one true Roman Emperor, and he resides in Thrace, not Bavaria) to be capable of doing exactly what they don't want him to do with the Imperial title. So if they offer it to the Greeks, they can use this to their advantage - the ideal situation would be having the Greeks seem serious about it, seem able to do something about it, but if push comes to shove either it involves Conrad backing down before anything comes of it, or the Greeks accepting and him being forced to worry about that rather than worrying them about their position.

The majority of the Empire might reject this. But that's not the point. This isn't about what the majority of the Empire wants. It never was about that. It's just a move to weaken the Wittelsbachs (Correct?).

And since I love your stuff on how the Romans are grappling with the problems of their day, this caught my eye:

Now the Empire is divided into ten prefectures, each of which is divided into ten provinces. These are deliberately designed so that no one prefecture is entirely within one theme. The tax gatherers, who still have the right to call up tagma soldiers to enforce tax payments if needed, report to the prefects. The prefects are given a handsome salary, but are forbidden to purchase any country land (including renting), engage in another form of business or trade, and may not purchase a townhouse in any city other than the capital (renting is allowed).Also they are required to keep their primary residence and family in Constantinople.

Now let the Emperor try to enforce this. Still, if they're paid a sufficiently generous salary, this should work for a given definition of success - not flawlessly, but no state has ever had or ever will have a perfect solution to this problem. It's just too much for human nature.

But this probably keeps that down to the levels of corruption and abuse of any system, rather than how the older systems seem to make the class the Imperial bureaucracy is built to check and the Imperial bureaucracy the same class.

* It had to be said.

[Dragos Cel Mare]

@Basileus444 That was great! I like how you whet our appetites with the promise of more Kommenids.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Dragos Cel Mare

@Basileus444 That was great! I like how you whet our appetites with the promise of more Kommenids.

I'm not looking forward to the next brink of disaster, but it's nice to see Rhomania's tradition of living in interesting times is held dear by the two most prominent timeline writers.

[Dragos Cel Mare]

if you're talking about the other Basileus, I've fallen out of his fandom the moment Mr. 444 wrote about The War of the Five Emperors and Second Manzikert.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Dragos Cel Mare

if you're talking about the other Basileus, I've fallen out of his fandom the moment Mr. 444 wrote about The War of the Five Emperors and Second Manzikert.

Yep.

As stated in my sig, my timeline being written is inspired by BG's.

But I'm definitely borrowing more ideas from 444's.

[Grouchio]

Are there any other siblings of Theodoros III?

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Reading the AHC about Ancient Indian Democracy, what would be the chances of a Swati Monarch reestablishing the Gana Sangha as a form of local government?

[thekingsguard]

<applauds> Wonderful update! Can't wait for the next part!