An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Arrix85

So the initial fact makes the war fault fall entirely on the Romans? Andreas hastened things (which would have come in time), yes, but I cannot understand the final conclusion "the iberians where unjustly hurt"


edit: sorry, today seems I'm in "nitpicking" mode. Just seems strange the use of the word just or unjust when it comes to wars.

it's like US-Japan in WW II. The US provoked, but it was the Japanese that started the war. Does that mean that the US had to be condemned?

Edit OK, it seems it is becoming a common place lately: sorry I didn't see your edits guys! honestly!

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Originally Posted by Andreas

it's like US-Japan in WW II. The US provoked, but it was the Japanese that started the war. Does that mean that the US had to be condemned?

Edit OK, it seems it is becoming a common place lately: sorry I didn't see your edits guys! honestly!

It's not the same, in that the US provoked Japan to stop its actrocities in Eastern China. Byzantium, meanwhile, provoked Aragon-Sicily so that its Emperor can undermine his regent.

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by Dragos Cel Mare

It's not the same, in that the US provoked Japan to stop its actrocities in Eastern China. Byzantium, meanwhile, provoked Aragon-Sicily so that its Emperor can undermine his regent.

While I'd have disagreed about the US actions against Japan as "provoking", I wouldn't give them such moral high ground, was more or less them trying to contain Japanese expansionism. The problem of the analogy is that Aragon-Sicily did declare war on the Roman Empire, the Japanese did not.

[Andreas]

although I see the US policy against Japan as a matter of internal policy too(besides geopolitics and humanism Roosevelt thought that a war would prove beneficial in the depression field), I accept the criticism on my example and I rest my case

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Originally Posted by Arrix85

While I'd have disagreed about the US actions against Japan as "provoking", I wouldn't give them such moral high ground, was more or less them trying to contain Japanese expansionism. The problem of the analogy is that Aragon-Sicily did declare war on the Roman Empire, the Japanese did not.

I'm afraid I don't see the point of your argument there. Emperor Andreas had several Aragonese civilians killed in the incident that provoked the decleration of war. The US, whatever your opinion of it, did not slay Japanese merchants or diplomats when 'provoking' Japan. And let me make this clear: as a Southeast Asian (Filipino, actually), I view containing Japanese expansionism as something that needed to be done, especially after Nanking.

The Aragonese were not agressively taking over the Mediterrenean and visiting Black Days on the civilian populace there. Yes, they had tensions with the Byzantines, but that doesn't change the fact that Emperor Andreas struck the first blow, and with ultierior motives that involved political gain. True, I shouldn't use 'just' or 'unjust' when it comes to war, but the fact of the matter is that the Iberians were less in the wrong than the Rhomans. I hope my statement didn't sound overly cantankerous.

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Originally Posted by Andreas

although I see the US policy against Japan as a matter of internal policy too(besides geopolitics and humanism Roosevelt thought that a war would prove beneficial in the depression field), I accept the criticism on my example and I rest my case

The problem is that Andreas' motive basically boiled down to 'undermine Vlad and get together with Kristina', not 'make his country more prosperous by making war against a country that fricking deserved it'.

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by Dragos Cel Mare

I'm afraid I don't see the point of your argument there. Emperor Andreas had several Aragonese civilians killed in the incident that provoked the decleration of war. The US, whatever your opinion of it, did not slay Japanese merchants or diplomats when 'provoking' Japan. And let me make this clear: as a Southeast Asian (Filipino, actually), I view containing Japanese expansionism as something that needed to be done, especially after Nanking.

Just to clarify I wasn't making a comparison between Andreas and the US policy, I was just pointing out the problems of the analogy.

[Herzen's love-child]

Could be a first: romantic love compelling militarist expansion. Gotta say, it might be a mitzvah to the Western world if Andreas & Kristina are removed.

Trade between East & West now has very different middlemen compared to OTL. Only Genoa fills the same role. The Marinids could become a big player. The Catholic West may look to ways not to have to deal with Constantinople in the economic sphere--war or no war. Portugal---hurry up!

& it's going to be a very different Renaissance in the Catholic West--if it happens at all in the sense we understand it.

If the Avignon form of Catholicism continues to prosper, the Reformation itself could be butterflied away. Indeed, Avignon seems to be the Reformation a few decades before Luther.

[Arrix85]

A question for our Basileus: after the Crusade (which I'd suppose it will take quite some time, since I think It will involved the end of european Middle Ages) we'll get some ethiopian action? Me wants some Brihan

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Originally Posted by Herzen's love-child

Could be a first: romantic love compelling militarist expansion. Gotta say, it might be a mitzvah to the Western world if Andreas & Kristina are removed.

Trade between East & West now has very different middlemen compared to OTL. Only Genoa fills the same role. The Marinids could become a big player. The Catholic West may look to ways not to have to deal with Constantinople in the economic sphere--war or no war. Portugal---hurry up!

& it's going to be a very different Renaissance in the Catholic West--if it happens at all in the sense we understand it.

If the Avignon form of Catholicism continues to prosper, the Reformation itself could be butterflied away. Indeed, Avignon seems to be the Reformation a few decades before Luther.

Economic problems, remember? The Avingonese church still needs to get money from somewhere.

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by Dragos Cel Mare

Economic problems, remember? The Avingonese church still needs to get money from somewhere.

Ok. We really need un update focusing on Avignon.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Arrix85

But those papal finances didn't also come from the governing of the Papal States? the Popes in Rome acted and were temporal rulers with all that comes with it. Avignon so far never clashed with any ruler over temporal affairs (so far)... So at least those kind of problems are lessened.

The Popes in Rome and Avignon TTL still have the Church as an institution to fund. So . . . lessened, but not eliminated.

[Dunois]

Basileus444 I have just finished reading your excellent TL today and the only thing I can say is to congratulate you on how great it is. Both the narrative and "history book" sections are great, in the latter I really like your broad view of topics such as economics and such which allows for the underlying trends in the TL to become apparent and explain the whole.

On a lot of basis it looks like a lot of places will end up faring A LOT better than OTl, starting with obviously the Rhoman Empire itself. When the time of the industrial revolution will come, the Empire will have plenty of coal to fuel it and a lot of minerals accessible in Anatolia as well. Turkey has for example a majority of the world boron reserves, mainly mined as borax ore. One issue however is that a lot of the coal deposits in Turkey, Greece and Bulgaria are brown coal deposits. Brown coal is okay for power generation but not great for metal working, transformation into coke and efficient power generation. There are black coal deposits all across Rhomanion however, but smaller ones. Prospections will however be far wider and far more profund TTL than it was OTL so seams which may not have been found OTL may be found TTL.
The greatest energy resource of Rhomanion however but one which could lead to tensions with the Ottomans, is hydropower itself. All it would take to hugely develop the backwards Coloneian theme would be to build dams onthe Tigris and Euphrates river, to irrigate the land and create a better climate for agriculture. OTL Turkey is actually doing this as we speak.

Another place which well end up hugely better than OTL is Russia itself. Do you realise that you are having the colonisation of the Wild Fields taking place two centuries ahead of OTL? This means that Russia could end up with thirty or even forty millions inhabitants by 1600. This number will keep increasing as more lands become available further east. Frankly TTL Russia will have the demographic leverage to flood Siberia and Central Asia will settlers to an extent uncomparable with OTL Russia.
TTL Russia also won't be facing the same ethnic troubles as OTL Russia, since Belarus and the Ukraine will have been held much more tightly for much longer. Lithuania is already the junior partner in the union and it will keep becoming ever more junior as time fades.
Considering the southwards orientation of Russia, might Kiev eventually become the capital itself? Its geographic position is ideal for this and i would be a great compromise between the Lithuanian and Russian halves of the nation.

The fact that the crowns of France and England are now one will have huge ramifications down the line. I would also caution against England breaking away from no reason at all. In fact the diversity of the Anglo-French realms may actually strenghtens institutions like the Parliament and the Magna Carta. The fact is also that population wise the French part of the nation will only account to 9 million people or so. The reason for that is that Burgundy, the Rhone Valley and southern France are part of other kingdoms. The ratio between England and "France" will therefore be only 1:3 and it could change in favor of England as time goes actually.
One hugely important thing to consider is that the lifeline between the two parts of the Anglo-French kingdom will be maritime. In fact we can expect previously established trade patterns of wine going north and woll going south, to carry on and be reinforced TTL. This could fuel the development of a huge merchant navy, possibly larger than the OTL British one, making overseas colonisation easier.

Lotharingia potential is good but "ethnic tensions" between the Romance and Germanic parts of the nation will happen at some point down the line. Burgundian French won't be germanised and Dutch/Flemish won't be frenchified and its too late to a merger of kinds.

The Iberian states will fare worse than OTL down the the line I reckon, save for possibly Portugal. The Reconquista ideology is still there and there is a lot of evidence than this ideology was destructive OTL, channeling energies otherwise spent in economic improvement, towards martial and religious pursuits instead. Castille without its Andalousian outlet could become very backwards as time progresses and competition in the wool trade raise its head (an obvious one is England/France). Aragon has historically (up to today) always been the most prosperous part of the peninsula, but facing Byzantine and Arletian competition their star could wane.

Scotland-Norway is an interesting creature, a side effect of which will be further "Norwegianisation" of Scots. We already have words like bairn of Norse origin in Scots OTL anyways.
Still its economic base is absolutely horrible made up of fish and not much else. The North Sea oil is still a very far away thing. I honestly wonder how long such a state can survive.
Ireland will probably end up being a prey of England/France. Fully integrating it into the "English" part of the kingdom could actually help balance things somewhat in the union.

[Tapirus Augustus]

Originally Posted by Dunois

Another place which well end up hugely better than OTL is Russia itself. Do you realise that you are having the colonisation of the Wild Fields taking place two centuries ahead of OTL? This means that Russia could end up with thirty or even forty millions inhabitants by 1600. This number will keep increasing as more lands become available further east. Frankly TTL Russia will have the demographic leverage to flood Siberia and Central Asia will settlers to an extent uncomparable with OTL Russia.

Consider also that the western border is about 300 years ahead of schedule. If they can take Galicia then they'll have recovered all the lands of the Kievan Rus.

Question: Are the Cossacks coming into existence as they did OTL?

[Basileus444]

Tongera: It could, but that's both expensive and difficult.

Dragos Cel Mare: Yeah, the Black Army cares about your coin, not your family name. Although it couldn't take on the rest of the Hungarian army by itself.

And yes, Andreas did provoke an incident that got people killed so he could outmaneuver Vlad. But he did pick a target that shouldn't be too dangerous, and does strengthen the Empire. So he's semi-evil there in my opinion.

Esopo: This is actually the last stage of the Italian-screw (and I will admit that TTL has been one, although not as bad as OTL-the Italian Wars TTL will be much shorter). And Andreas is serious about his promise to liberate Jerusalem.

And part of where I'm going with the Magna Graecia is to turn Southern Italy and Sicily to what they were in the ancient world and early Middle Ages, up to the time the Angevins drove it into the ground, a wealthy, populous region. Greek immigration brings in more people, more expertise, more capital, managed by a government that favors lower and middle classes over uppity nobles and has the power to squish the latter if they try anything...I think great things are possible here.

And before the Italians were treated worse, a lot worse, than Muslims. Andreas' new policy is actually just to treat them as the Empire treated Turks in the early 1300s, a policy of be nice, keep them happy, and try to integrate them in the Empire, particularly the army, in order to quietly assimilate them. For instance, a tagma soldier is a good deal for a peasant, they get land and pay, but they have to learn Greek.

Herzen's love-child: I think too we're just used to Italy being the battleground of Europe in this time period.

I'm thinking of having Avignon butterfly away the Anglicans and Lutherans, the moderate Protestants, but have the TTL Calvinists and Anabaptists, the more extreme, appear in a TTL Reformation (although considering how it comes up, the use of that word is debateable at best). There's a reason why the Hussites are increasingly being mentioned.

Arrix85: Yeah, no Romans in Piedmont. That's be ASB in my mind. I believe that the Empire can hold southern Italy directly and central Italy as vassals, but the north is too far away, wealthy, and populous (Egypt is similar, but the Copts are available as a fifth column, Lombardy doesn't have something like that).

Don't worry, there will be lots of Brihan stuff.

Elfwine: There are a couple of reasons for that. First, the Emperor Manuel II Laskaris who instituted the tolerance policies liked Turks and Muslims (he fought alongside them) while the Pope called him the spawn of Satan. Also initial the Byzantine Turkish policies were harsh, but Manuel II changed them to what they are currently. Due to the major fluctuations Roman Italy has had ITTL compared to the stability of Roman Anatolia, the Italians are behind the curve so to speak. But the plan is for Andreas I to be to the Italians as Manuel II was to the Turks.

30% is high, but it's 10% now. With over five hundred less years of Islamization, there would be more Copts anyway. Plus the mere existence of a powerful Christian Empire might make Islam less appealing to potential converts. It probably wouldn't butterfly too many, but it adds up. But if anyone knows historical figures of the Coptic population, please let me know.

Regarding Avignon, both Gregory XI and XII were powerful, but good men who did work to correct abuses and took the title 'Servant of the Servants of God' seriously. That's really the one difference between the Avignon and Roman Papacy (which has been getting the typical Renaissance Pope). So the issues afflicting Rome have only been suppressed, not destroyed, in Avignon. I have every intention of elaborating on this in the future, since I still have plans for a TTL Protestant Reformation I'd like to use.

PlayerOne: One thing I do like about a Byzantine revival is that it makes some other cool ideas possible, such as Georgia, Ethiopia, and Copt-wanks.

Copts are the majority in Alexandria (55%), and are considered noble heretics, the same as Armenians. Andreas has been too distracted to do much, but Coptic migration is #1 on the list of Roman 'ways to boost Alexandria's pop'.

Evilprodigy: An Egypt that is half-Coptic, half Muslim would be very interesting to see. I think it would be closer to the west, the big thing depending on how the British view the Copts (assuming butterfly nets, the British would still grab Egypt to protect the Suez route to India).

Andreas: One thing that's better for Italy TTL is shorter Italian Wars. While now it's in a bad way, my original draft had Italy follow a similar route to Syria. Both saw huge wars, but they were fifty years apart or more, much easier to take than fighting every generation.

And Southern Italy won't turn completely Greek, but something that is more of a Italo-Greek bent. I think the differences between north and south Italy actually help that development, since the Apulians, Campanians etc. don't view Lombards and Tuscans as quite like them, and thus have little incentive to imitate them.

elkarlo: Thanks.

Dunois: Thanks. I appreciate your comments. I'm definitely beefing up Russia here. Besides what's you've mentioned, it's much more open to trade and foreign ideas, making up much more technologically advanced. Imagine a Russia with OTL resources but USA technology.

I would like to keep France-England together. One idea I'm thinking of using to lessen the French-English divide is for Arles to take Aquitaine sometime in the future, so it's more of an even split. That way the Plantaganets will pay more attention to England since it's a much bigger piece of their resources.

Norway-Scotland isn't meant to be a permanent fixture. It's mainly to give Arles an ally to counterbalance France-England, and so I can call Canada Vinland ITTL.

Tapirus Augustus: My plan is for Cossacks, but instead of being in the Ukraine, they'll be in OTL Kazakhstan, and being border guards not against the Crimean Tatars/Ottomans, but against the Timurids/Ottomans.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

30% is high, but it's 10% now. With over five hundred less years of Islamization, there would be more Copts anyway. Plus the mere existence of a powerful Christian Empire might make Islam less appealing to potential converts. It probably wouldn't butterfly too many, but it adds up. But if anyone knows historical figures of the Coptic population, please let me know.

I think the problem is that the conversion process had already been pretty damn through by this point, but I don't have conclusive figures - I've looked at things mentioning it on this site before and it winds up as a debate every time with no final answer.

Regarding Avignon, both Gregory XI and XII were powerful, but good men who did work to correct abuses and took the title 'Servant of the Servants of God' seriously. That's really the one difference between the Avignon and Roman Papacy (which has been getting the typical Renaissance Pope). So the issues afflicting Rome have only been suppressed, not destroyed, in Avignon. I have every intention of elaborating on this in the future, since I still have plans for a TTL Protestant Reformation I'd like to use.

Good. I think seeing how an energetic, determined pope can make a difference for the better is worth swallowing Avignon being a bit too good for my (pessimistic) suspension of disbelief. Both Gregories have set good examples.

Which probably means if/when an Avignon pope who isn't so holy comes along, people will be that much more shocked . . .

[Tongera]

Just wondering, could Italy end up devastated, like it was during the Gothic War during Justinians Reign? If it is, i could led to interesting developments in Italy.

[Avitus]

Very interesting stuff. I find it difficult to believe that the Romans could hold back the crusaders on mainland Italy, but their navy should easily be able to protect Sicily and Venetia.

And how dare the Lotharingians! I always did dislike Burgundy (and they are such jerks in EU3 too), and now I do TTL too. I want Arles to do something, since they are close Roman allies, and could benefit greatly from this war if they capitalize right.

[Derekc2]

So Romano and Papa Eastern Rome are once again getting along.

You know the fact that the Milanese and genoens have been fighting Venice and all the nations in Northern Italy, I've came up with an answere to how that works in Hetalia terms. Chibitalia has moutiple bosses. His bosses are all of the leaders of each Italian states. So he's really scared and intimidated by the Venitian boss who makes him do assholish stuff like the 4th crusade and the black day. When Milan came and kicked Venice's butt, that was when Chibitalia had enough and gave the Venitian doge the proverbial middle finger and joined in with his milanese boss, which is his primary boss now when it was Venitian doge (who was very mean to him). Also he's used this oppertunity to reconnect with Papa Eastern Rome a little with Romano getting fully reconnected with Papa Eastern Rome.

Papal state is Eastern's rome brother and the uncle to the Italian siblings. He and Eastern Rome hate each other. The reason I think that is becouse he is the catholic church as well as Papal state so he's pretty old all things considering (with him being born before the Ostogothia came into Italy, who is the Itallian siblings mother). How ever he is the youngest of Grandpa Rome's children. Chibitalia calls him "Uncle Papal". Romano calls him "bastard uncle" becouse that's how Romano rolls.

Romano boss is officially Papa Eastern Rome sence the Eastern Roman Empire rules Southern Italy. For a whille he and his papa didn't see eye to eye (with what the Eastern Roman Empire did to the Itallians and all) but sence Alfredo became an stragois and what Andreas did (with him making Apulians and Italians in general equal) he and his Papa are much more understanding with each other. How ever the two still get into arguments a lot. That just what happens when there are two Tsunderes living together.(My headcanon is that the Eastern Roman Empire is/was an tsundere becouse where else would Romano get his tsundereness?) Also before any incestuss Yoai girls reading this thread ask, no they only have an Father/son reletionship, nothing more as far as I consern.

As for sicily I've decided that it was Romano when he was living with Aragon.

I think I've summed up the Hetalian situation quite nicely. Do any fellow hetalians think so or am I missing something?

[Evilprodigy]

Originally Posted by Derekc2

Romano calls him "bastard uncle" becouse that's how Romano rolls.

I laughed hard at this part