An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion

[ElSho]

Originally Posted by Xavier

*looks suspiciously at Basileus* Did I just see an Ethiopian Jeanne d'Arc?

It was announced a while ago, though, because Basileus felt somewhat guilty to butterfly away such a cool historic figure.
So he made her come from somewhere else, and Ethiopia seemed to fit both her motives and his designs.
And she seems to be very cool too.

Go Brihan, go!

[eliphas8]

Okay thats just ASB, how on earth could there ever be a competent Angelos?

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

Okay thats just ASB, how on earth could there ever be a competent Angelos?

Perhaps he flubs up later and reveals who Maria's true killer is to Demetrios and Leo?

[Ze Kaiser]

Originally Posted by CobiWann

Yeah, what was that about a Crusade not being fatal?

Fatal to the Byzantine Empire. Speaking of which, I think Rhomania's recovered rather nicely. Best buds with uber Russia, fairly stable (especially now that the succession line has been sorted out) and prosperous, superior to the Ottoman Empire in virtually every way, surrounded by weak countries ripe for the picking, strongest military power in Eastern Europe, one of (if not the single) best navies in the world, etc.

[Arrix85]

Brihan is a total badass.

Does the marriage of Louis of Arles with an Hapsburg princess make the Arletian also look east? I understand that the main focus of Arles will be on the north, but...

I had a thought about the time of troubles, on the list I made we can add also the line descending from the sons of Andreas and Kristina (which claim would be supported by Russian armies, their intervention would be particularly easy to justify if the Ottomans invade "supporting" the anastasian line). What an incredible mess it's gonna be.

[Tapirus Augustus]

Originally Posted by Xavier

And I'm not sure what good 80 pikemen are on a battlefield, they work best in large masses, so having only thousand of them, spread out over the empire...eh, not sure.

I agree, what I think we're seeing here is s a nation which is too used to being in the ascent. The current super-complicated and spread-out system is working fairly well right now, because the Empire is mainly fighting offensive campaigns, and has time to collect its forces before waging war. Once the time of troubles sets in, which I hope will be soon, I think the empire is going to find that this system is too slow for the early-modern era. One tagma simply won't be as effective on its own as it was in the middle ages, when enemies couldn't martial large professional forces. And all the different troop types means that the army is going to get unwieldy and fragmented.
We've already seen that too much power is in the hands of the Strategoi, which will doubtless cause problems during the time of troubles. I think the current system will remain effective for the rest of Andreas' reign, since he is looks set to be a strong empire, and most of his campaigns are going to be offensive in nature, but the empire will be in for a whole slew of reforms on the other side of the time of troubles.

I would also be interested in seeing the formation of a Roman Secret Police, perhaps designed by Kristinia, which will play a big roll during the "bad" portion of Andreas' rule, when he goes on his reign of terror (This is coming up, right?).

Other thoughts: I'm looking forward to seeing what Russia will be doing in the near future. I imagine that it will want to liberate it's Orthodox bretheren in Galicia from Catholic Polish rule, and perhaps get rid of the Teutonic Knights (not that they seem like much of a threat at the moment, perhaps it will end up using them as the Romans have used the Hospitalers). Other than that, I see Russia mainly looking east towards Siberia and Central Asia, and possible Georgia. OTL, Russia had huge distractions in the west, in the form of the Ottomans and Poland-Lithuania, but since those problems don't exist ITTL, it could conceivably begin its eastern expansion sooner, and much more rapidly. Depending on when it acquires a Pacific port, it may be able to succeed where OTL Russia failed, and establish a colonial empire stretching from Alaska to San-Francisco.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing how things progress in Ethiopia, Joan d'Arc is a personal Heroine and I'm really excited to see how her African counterpart fares.

Last questions: Armenians. Where are they? Are there any left in Ottoman Armenia (I think it's possible, seeing as all the Turkomen were killed, perhaps the native population moved back in)? I imagine that they make up a considerable proportion of the Georgian population. Who owns the city of Van, and is it important? How are the Armenians doing in the Roman empire? Are they keeping their language and church? I'll be honest, it would make me very sad if they all got assimilated. In fact, it might be time to revive the Byzantine tradition of having an Armenian military dynasty on the throne.

[Elfwine]

Unless the Western powers are considerably ahead of where they were OTL, they can't muster "large professional forces" even in the early modern era. Not without far more effort than it takes for Rhomania to do the same.

Even with mercenaries.

Not saying reforms wouldn't be a good idea - but the Empire shouldn't be too challenged by its external opponents at this point. Assuming it keeps good leadership and stays out of civil wars.

And it would be rather weird if the Armenians, who have been proudly "Roman by birth, Armenian by the grace of God." for centuries, to just be absorbed.

[Tapirus Augustus]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Unless the Western powers are considerably ahead of where they were OTL, they can't muster "large professional forces" even in the early modern era. Not without far more effort than it takes for Rhomania to do the same.

Even with mercenaries.

Not saying reforms wouldn't be a good idea - but the Empire shouldn't be too challenged by its external opponents at this point. Assuming it keeps good leadership and stays out of civil wars.

And it would be rather weird if the Armenians, who have been proudly "Roman by birth, Armenian by the grace of God." for centuries, to just be absorbed.

You're right about the "professional" armies. What I meant was that Rome's enemies are increasingly able to sustain relatively large armies in the field, and the Thematic System was, in large part, invented to counter decentralized Arab, Turkish, and Slavic raiding parties. Since these are probably going to be less common in the future, especially in the west, the Thematic system may not be as effective as it once was.

And if there's one thing that the empire is terrible at, it's avoiding civil wars.

I also agree with you about the Armenians, but I want to make sure that Basileus444 is on the same page.

[Basileus444]

CobiWann: I'll be honest; I don't remember making that comment.

Xavier: Yup. As for the kentarchiai, they're still in the very early experimental stage, so they have a lot of issues.

ElSho: Joan of Arc is a cool historical figure, and she seemed a good way to help push Ethiopia forward.

eliphas8: It's theoretically possible. But don't worry, the rest of the family is the 'Do you practice being that stupid or does it come naturally?' that is the OTL Angeloi.

Dragos Cel Mare: No, Andronikos is smart. He'd only do that deliberately.

Ze Kaisar: The Empire has a very strong base, which obviously helps a lot. The main issue right now is demographic, since both the Imperial population and army strength were hit hard in the 1450s, and neither has fully recovered.

Arrix85: The Habsburg Queen does make Arles look east, although acting it won't happen until France-England and Lotharingia have their falling out.

Tapirus Augustus: If you remember that quote an update or two back, from The Empire of Blood and Gold, that line is basically the descriptor of Andreas' reign.

Russia is going to look west very soon and I think you'll like what I have planned for Brihan. Regarding the Armenians, they are most definitely still around. Manuel III Doukas was half-Armenian, and they're still a major component in the Roman state and army and there are a lot in Georgia too. Most of the Roman ones live in Cilicia and still retain their own church (which is the first of the noble heresies) and language (although many know Greek). Van itself is in the Ottoman Empire (Romans control the west shore of Lake Van, the Ottomans the east), and is a border fortress, not a significant town. Timur went over that area twice. There are very few Ottoman Armenians, most got killed by Timur and the remainder emigrated to the Roman Empire or Georgia.

Elfwine: The Empire still has a good (although shrinking-look at Arles' lance system and the Black Army of Hungary) lead on the west. And the Armenians aren't going anywhere.

[Mathalamus]

a couple things:

1. Black Army of Hungary? do they have a LOTR fetish centuries earlier than they should?

2. so someone coined the word Byzantium and the noun Byzantine Empire. did andreas hear of it, and what does he think of it? personally, it makes sense, since its bastly different from Trajan's empire, and it did contain only half of it to begin with.

3. an Ethiopian revival? good. i wanted an orthodox power in Africa, especially in close proximity to the core of Islam.

[Dragos Cel Mare]

The Ethopians are Coptic, not Orthodox.

[Evilprodigy]

Originally Posted by Mathalamus

1. Black Army of Hungary? do they have a LOTR fetish centuries earlier than they should?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Army_of_Hungary

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Well, that's intresting. That said, I think that they woudn't survive the Time Of Troubles if Hungary interferes with Rhoman affairs.

[thekingsguard]

That was quite a meaty update! I can't wait for what's next!

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Tapirus Augustus

You're right about the "professional" armies. What I meant was that Rome's enemies are increasingly able to sustain relatively large armies in the field, and the Thematic System was, in large part, invented to counter decentralized Arab, Turkish, and Slavic raiding parties. Since these are probably going to be less common in the future, especially in the west, the Thematic system may not be as effective as it once was.

And if there's one thing that the empire is terrible at, it's avoiding civil wars.

I also agree with you about the Armenians, but I want to make sure that Basileus444 is on the same page.

I'm not sure it's a whole lot worse than the West, to be honest. Looking at OTL England up to the Tudors. . . .

William I: Usurper (or we can start the list with him, your call)
William II: Mysterious death
Henry I: Usurper
Stephen: Usurper
Henry II: His fights with his own sons have to count as a civil war.
Richard I
John: His fights with his barons are definitely a civil war.
Henry III: Same, and worse.
Edward I
Edward II: Overthrown and killed.
Edward III
Richard II: Overthrown and killed.
Henry IV: Turbulent rule
Henry V: Nearly usurped.
Henry VI: Messy, messy, messy
Edward IV: Usurper
(Edward V): Disappeared
Richard III: Usurper

Certainly the Byzantine record isn't that good either, but compared to this? I don't think we can really say it's worse, either.

Not much disagreement on the themes. They're a good system up to a point, but they're increasingly not enough to be more than a supplement to the main forces. Still, the Romans do have a formidable standing army, they should be able to deal. The Byzantine tradition that crisis means reform, as opposed to a conviction that tried and true should be leaned on, makes them an odd duck as old states go.

Basileus444: Makes sense, and good to know on the Armenians.

It wouldn't be the same Byzantium without their presence. They - and it may just be the historians calling our their presence - seem to have had more than their fair share of talented generals and capable emperors (counting the Macedonian dynasty as Armenian-blooded, and I seem to recall reading the Komnenoi are of Armenian stock).

[Mathalamus]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

(counting the Macedonian dynasty as Armenian-blooded, and I seem to recall reading the Komnenoi are of Armenian stock).

i still have no idea how that's possible. did a colony's worth of Armenians immigrate to Macedonia in the 700s or so?

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Mathalamus

i still have no idea how that's possible. did a colony's worth of Armenians immigrate to Macedonia in the 700s or so?

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ro...ianDynasty.htm

http://i-cias.com/e.o/basil1.htm or http://isthmia.osu.edu/teg/hist60702/4.htm if you prefer

That help?

[Mathalamus]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ro...ianDynasty.htm

http://i-cias.com/e.o/basil1.htm or http://isthmia.osu.edu/teg/hist60702/4.htm if you prefer

That help?

yeah it does. we need more rulers like Basil II. regardless if he kept the administration in his own hands, there's always trouble when the Emperor dies.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Mathalamus

yeah it does. we need more rulers like Basil II. regardless if he kept the administration in his own hands, there's always trouble when the Emperor dies.

That's a curse of monarchy though. Even with a well developed bureaucracy, unless said bureaucracy turns into the government like it did in China - the Emperor (or King) is a key pillar of the government.

And when he's gone, those who want to cause trouble have an opportunity while his successor is setting things up so that he can run the show.

I genuinely think in a lot of ways Byzantium's problems - here and elsewhere - have gotten exaggerated relative to its Western contemporaries, because they pulled through and it didn't (OTL). Which is not to say its not serious, but if England could handle all of what happened between William I and Henry VII, there's no reason the Byzantines can't potentially weather their own troubles.


But still. We need more Basil IIs and less Alexius IIIs, for that to work. So far so good . . . so far.

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Not much disagreement on the themes. They're a good system up to a point, but they're increasingly not enough to be more than a supplement to the main forces. Still, the Romans do have a formidable standing army, they should be able to deal.

IMO, the theme system, perhaps with some adjustments, can work just fine until the advent of the levée en masse & general conscription. Sweden's allotment system isn't that different and worked just fine in the 17th-18th centuries*. Also, the theme system + a standing army also means that the Romans will be able to mobilise a larger army in the short term than someone with only a larger standing army, who will have to hire mercenaries & train new troops to expand, which will take more time than the mobilisation of the themes.

* as far as organisation goes, the Great Northern War did result in Sweden losing an entire generation's population growth on the battlefields of Russia