An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion

[Mathalamus]

one question. where is the Imperial palace supposed to be, since the great palace was described as a dump from the 11th century, and the 4th crusade only damaged it further.

and please don't say Blachernae, as its like a 15 minute walk from the north Constantinople walls. a very bad location for such an important palace. i know that the walls are the self replicating God types, but with the advent of gunpowder will render it useless.

[Basileus444]

Originally Posted by Mathalamus

one question. where is the Imperial palace supposed to be, since the great palace was described as a dump from the 11th century, and the 4th crusade only damaged it further.

and please don't say Blachernae, as its like a 15 minute walk from the north Constantinople walls. a very bad location for such an important palace. i know that the walls are the self replicating God types, but with the advent of gunpowder will render it useless.

I've been using the Blachernae palace. It is in a horrid position if an enemy attacks the city, but that palace is what the Palaeologids used up to the fall of the city. Also the Bucoleon was used by the Latin Emperors between 1204-1261 OTL, 1204-1272 TTL, so it had a sort of Latin 'residue' which made it distasteful to the Byzantines.

I think with the Bucoleon tainted by the crusader Latins and the Blachernae by Maria's Latins, a new construction project may be in order.

[Mathalamus]

interesting. in my timeline, the Byzantine engineers just demolished the great palace, and demolished the buildings in the area to build a new palace.

a new White palace, which looks like a larger version of the white house, sits where Tokapi church used to be. and tis surrounded by beautiful grounds.

the White palace is the Imperial residence for the Emperor, his or her office, and is also the home of the Emperors family, and the Emperors assistant. and his/her office as well.

[von Adler]

Industrialisation will probably not be a great problem for the revived Roman Empire. I foresee more problems during the 17th century, when the Portugese and Spaniards re shipping spices and silk around Africa, denying the Empire lots of revenue.

On the other hand, this is the time when the Ottomans were at their strongest. Perhaps the Orthodox and Muslim states can reach some kind of understanding, which means they do not pirate each others' vessels. This alone would give the Empire quite a trading advantage in the Mediterrenean, as the Knights Hospitaler and Barbaresk Pirates were doing their best to strange the trade for the other side.

[DuQuense]

von Adler: Thank you for the information. I believe Turkey has some oil deposits and it's close to some huge ones, so that it could help fuel a Byzantine Industrial Revolution once it gets to that stage. The problem is going to be to get that far.

It will depend on how much of Mosul & Syria this Empire holds on too.

[Basileus444]

Mathalamus: That sounds pretty cool...and shiny. I admit that I haven't given the Imperial palace much thought, but my outline for 1420-1450 is pretty sparse so far in terms of Byzantine events (Nearly all of the events planned so far are outside the Empire). Perhaps when I get there...

von Adler: Industrialization I haven't planned yet, so I'm not sure how that's going to go. However the Indian Ocean trade is going to be substantially different, with several players that weren't in it OTL. As for Mediterranean trade, the fifteenth century is going to see a whole lot of changes.

DuQuense: Agreed. Currently most of the Middle Eastern oil reservoirs are controlled by Muslim states, not the Empire, but that could change.

[Tyg]

Originally Posted by von Adler

Industrialisation will probably not be a great problem for the revived Roman Empire. I foresee more problems during the 17th century, when the Portugese and Spaniards re shipping spices and silk around Africa, denying the Empire lots of revenue.

At that point, Constantinople could be developing as a massive trade hub for the Black Sea basin in general. Maybe the Empire has limited industrial resources directly within its territory, but much of that is available through trade with other orthodox nations.

In the best case scenario, I'm thinking of it a little like the Netherlands in the period; only with a far greater available hinterland, and capacity for expansion. Sure, maybe it isn't dominant in the growing production of coal and metals, but with expert craftsmen, artisans, and organizational capital able to process and sell from imported raw materials, the Empire can still have a robust and advanced economy.

[TheShah]

Basileus, I'm just going to say I spent the last 5 hours or so going through the entire timeline, and I am hooked. I would consider myself a Byzantine History nut, but your finesse, breadth, and ultra-detailed analysis (the generous use of contemporary locations and landmarks ) blew me away.

This is my first time truly venturing outside the Moderated Shared Worlds corner of AH.com and I think you've got me hooked.

Thoughts on the matter:

1.) Continue this!
2.) I like Manuel.
3.) Perhaps a blip about the 90 year war and the HRE?

[Basileus444]

Tyg: That's a nice analogy; I like it. Plus with a much larger hinterland and population base, the Empire would still be able to field large armies, unlike the Netherlands or Sweden which failed to retain great power status largely through lack of numbers.

TheShah: Thanks very much; that really means a lot.
1) Will do.
2) I do too. He's developed a lot since his portrayal in the early drafts, where he was just another claimant.
3) Those will be coming up within the next few updates.


"Not since the days of Xerxes as Asia sent forth such a vast and terrible host."-John Pachymeres

1411: In January Demetrios and Manuel meet at the old battlefield of Cappadocian Caesarea, at which they had both served. They are both accompanied by their Athanatoi contingents and their ‘home’ tagmata, the Thracesian for Demetrios and the Coloneian for Manuel. Combat operations between the two had ceased as soon as they heard the news about Timur’s advance, with the conference arranged via emissaries who met at Zephyrium in Cilicia in late November.

Both have grave concerns, besides the obvious. With the news of Timur’s approach becoming common knowledge in Anatolia, Demetrios is growing increasingly unsure of the loyalty of his troops, particularly the Anatolic tagma, who are favoring Manuel, the one claimant who has actively been opposing the warlord’s forces. Demetrios himself is also eager to strike a blow against Timur, the murderer of his uncle and the closest thing he had to a father.

Meanwhile Manuel, who turned fifty nine last December, is growing increasingly weary of fighting. And even if he does become Emperor of the Romans, he is worried about the succession. His healer son George has absolutely no desire to become Emperor, while he feels that his other son Michael lacks the requisite patience and wisdom to make a good ruler. He has also been growing increasingly estranged with Michael since the failed invasion of the Anatolic theme in 1405. Michael had attributed his lack of success to the supposed cowardice of his soldiers, rather than his utter failure to conduct a proper reconnaissance. Also Manuel knows that in Timur’s present mood, the suffering that he will inflict on the people of eastern Anatolia will be absolutely terrible.

Thus both are adamant that Timur cannot be allowed to enter Anatolia again. As a result, over a period of twelve days, the two claimants come to a comprehensive agreement designed to present an united Roman Anatolian front to Timur. Manuel agrees to recognize Demetrios as rightful ruler of the Romans with the succession to pass down his line, but Manuel is recognized as co-emperor. Also Demetrios’ son Theodoros, almost three years old, is betrothed to Manuel’s granddaughter Helena and the daughter of his son George. She is almost two. The wedding is to take place once Helena turns fifteen. At the end of the summit, the two revive an old Roman tradition. Both are raised on their shields, Demetrios by Manuel’s men and Manuel by Demetrios’ and publicly proclaimed by both armies as Emperors of Smyrna and Trebizond.

George, with his father’s permission, becomes archiatros of Demetrios’ Athanatoi formation and Demetrios’ personal physician. The two men soon become good friends. However Michael Doukas is irate over the agreement as it ruins his chances of ever attaining the throne. With the specter of Timur looming over the Empire, he keeps him mouth shut for now.

Demetrios’ troops are overjoyed at the conference’s result. Their candidate is recognized as the senior emperor and they get to finally strike a blow against the Timurids instead of against fellow Romans. Manuel’s troops are not so enthused, but Manuel convinces them to accept the agreement, saying to them that ‘as Romans, our responsibility is not to any one man, but to the Empire itself.’

Manuel marches east after the conference, pouring supplies and men into Theodosiopolis while the fortifications are strengthened. Part of the improvements are four bombards forged in Smyrna, a gift from Demetrios. As soon as Timur’s host, ninety thousand strong, enters Roman Armenia in late February, it is immediately engaged by Manuel’s skirmishers. As they have had many years of practice in the art over the course of the Anatolian civil war, they are very successful with the akritoi proving to be extremely deadly in ambushing horse archers in the foothills.

Also since the conference an intense propaganda effort has been waged to convince the common people to accept the Caesarean agreement. Alongside Manuel’s appellation of ‘Guardian of the Empire’ is placed Demetrios’ conduct at the Battle of Caesarea, where his seventh of the Roman army was responsible for one fourth of the Timurid casualties. The argument of the heralds is that together the two emperors can defeat the great Timur himself and then rule far better than those mismanaging warmongering Laskarids. John Pachymeres, Demetrios’ court historian, publishes the first book of his history, covering the reign of Konstantinos XI Laskaris, where the role of George Komnenos in the wars of his reign is heavily minimized.

Meanwhile Timur had been counseled to invade Anatolia by way of Syria and Cilicia, avoiding mountainous Armenia where Roman infantry would have the advantage. However he rejected that advice. He is concerned that a Timurid army in Syria might provoke a Mameluke response; the Egyptians have been increasingly difficult in regards to the tribute payments required of them in the Treaty of Jerusalem. Also an advance through Syria would make it very easy for Osman II to cut Timur’s supply lines, while a direct assault on Armenia would not present the same vulnerability.

Timur is also eager to get the campaign over with as quickly as possible. His leg wound from the assassination attempt in 1403 has never fully healed, and his old age and the rigors of the march only aggravate the pain, as well as his health. Timur’s poor condition is why it took him almost five months to travel from Samarkand to Armenia.

The initial thrust into Armenia is not opposed except with skirmishers and scorched earth tactics. Manuel deliberately allows himself to be bottled up along with his heavy troops in Theodosiopolis, which is invested on March 28. Timur cannot allow such a powerful fortress to remain unconquered in his rear. Well fortified and supplied, Manuel repulses three furious attempts to storm the city with the bombards plus twenty five trebuchets proving very effective at smashing up the Timurid siege artillery. Meanwhile clouds of light Roman troops hang around the engagement, vigorously attacking foragers. On April 7 they even stage a small raid into one of the smaller Timurid camps, starting a fire which ends up killing over two hundred Timurid soldiers.

Since the Caesarea conference, Demetrios has been gathering his forces, setting up supply depots to the west of Theodosiopolis, and vigorously training his troops in how to counter Timur’s tactics. In May he begins maneuvering to cut off Timur’s supply lines. With foraging proving to be extremely difficult, the heavily guarded supply caravans coming from Persia are Timur’s only reliable source of provisions. With Demetrios maneuvering to intercept those caravans, along with the continual attacks of the light troops and Theodosiopolis’ defiant resistance, Timur is forced to abandon the siege on May 20.

His retreat allows Demetrios’ army to link up with Manuel’s troops. The supply depots stationed to the rear are what allows the combined Smyrnan-Trebizondian force of some seventy five thousand men to pursue Timur’s army without having to disperse and give Timur the opportunity to defeat them in detail. Since Demetrios is the senior Emperor, he is the commander of the combined army with Manuel as his second. Timur is unaccustomed to retreating in the face of the enemy so once his supply lines are secure on May 27 he turns and challenges the Anatolian army at a field infamous in Roman history: Manzikert.

[MerryPrankster]

Oh wow. Good update.

Manzikert 2.0 is going to be epic.

[TheShah]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Oh wow. Good update.

Manzikert 2.0 is going to be epic.

Awesome...

Will this be yet another miracle, or the beginning of the end?

And so much for Timur ever invading China, in either timeline.

Not to mention the foreboding of foolish Michael's continued but repressed intransigence....

[Mathalamus]

oh wow, the Romans demonstrate their power very well. great update, i bet Timur will be massacred, with every last enemy solider killed. this will be one for the history books. even in civil war, the romans are not to be trifled with.

also, has the news of the timurid invasion reached thracia or Greece yet?

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by Mathalamus

oh wow, the Romans demonstrate their power very well. great update, i bet Timur will be massacred, with every last enemy solider killed. this will be one for the history books. even in civil war, the romans are not to be trifled with.

also, has the news of the timurid invasion reached thracia or Greece yet?

Don't count Timur for dead, you can never ever ever ever underestimate the level of cruel tricks and strategic genius he had at his disposal, the man invented psychological warfare and probably could survive the battle and in the very least die giving the Romans a bloody nose.

[SavoyTruffle]

If Second Manzikert is a victory for the Romans just as Second Mohacs was a victory for the Holy League, then I will be amazed.

[TheShah]

Originally Posted by SavoyTruffle

If Second Manzikert is a victory for the Romans just as Second Mohacs was a victory for the Holy League, then I will be amazed.

However, if Timur, god forbid wins (and the odds could be in his favor), then Byzantium is likely done for.

It'll wipe out Manuel and Demetrios, leaving Anatolia wide open. Good for Thomas, not so good for the Empire.

Even if they win, the Anatolian claimants will be so exhausted that Thomas could shank them in the back, although that would take someone of a very nasty Alexios IV Angelus fashion.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

Don't count Timur for dead, you can never ever ever ever underestimate the level of cruel tricks and strategic genius he had at his disposal, the man invented psychological warfare and probably could survive the battle and in the very least die giving the Romans a bloody nose.

I wouldn't say he invented it (attempts to scare one's opponents have been going on longer than we've been riding horses), but I'd still say he's a tough opponent.

Any Roman victory will be hard fought. Doable - but as the defeat at (Cappadocian) Caesarea shows, Roman armies can lose battles despite all their toughness and canniness.

The worst part is that Timur likely has a powerful enough force to be a very hard blow on the winners, even if they do kick his tail. Big battles mean big causality lists.

[SavoyTruffle]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

I wouldn't say he invented it (attempts to scare one's opponents have been going on longer than we've been riding horses), but I'd still say he's a tough opponent.

Any Roman victory will be hard fought. Doable - but as the defeat at (Cappadocian) Caesarea shows, Roman armies can lose battles despite all their toughness and canniness.

The worst part is that Timur likely has a powerful enough force to be a very hard blow on the winners, even if they do kick his tail. Big battles mean big causality lists.

I think the Romans get a better chance if Timur's age catches up with him, or he is felled.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by SavoyTruffle

I think the Romans get a better chance if Timur's age catches up with him, or he is felled.

No doubt, but I think that has more to do with his empire being quarreled over or the usual chaos at the death of a leader in battle than Timur's own merits.

His successor might be worse than him, but he might not be (though I doubt he will be better).

[thekingsguard]

Asweome work on the Roman Civil War, and I look forward to seeing how the Second Battle of Mazikert goes down!

[frozenpredator]

awesome chapter, and it seems that the Roman's best bet for victory is intervention by the Mamelukes, Osman 2 or both