WI: No Axis Slovakia

Suppose that Tiso had not agreed to declare Slovak independence in 1939. Would Slovakia have been partitioned between Hungary and Germany as the Nazis suggested? If that happened, would it change anything major regarding the lead-up to the invasion of Poland?
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
The Hlinka Guard might be a headache and require some stomping on, but otherwise I don't see a German-Hungarian division of Slovakia affecting all that much.
 
This could very well lead to WW2 in March instead of September if Hácha's meeting with Hitler goes differently. Needless to say, the Germans are going to get royally screwed without the free booty they got from the Czechs.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
This could very well lead to WW2 in March instead of September if Hácha's meeting with Hitler goes differently. Needless to say, the Germans are going to get royally screwed without the free booty they got from the Czechs.
Eh? Nobody's doubting a German takeover of Bohemia and Moravia. It's Slovakia that's in question and, if not granted independence, is probably going to be annexed by an irredentist Hungary.
 
Eh? Nobody's doubting a German takeover of Bohemia and Moravia.

I am.

Hitler sheduled a German invasion of Bohemia and Moravia for the morning of 15 March.

On March 13 he invited Tiso.

On March 14, Slovak independence was declared.

On March 15 he summoned Hácha to Berlin and threatened a Luftwaffe attack on Prague. Hácha suffered a heart attack and gave in to Hitler's demands.


No Slovak declaration of independence might give Hácha enough balls to try and negotiate with Hitler, who might or might not order an invasion later that day to bully him into accepting. If he does and there is no stand-down order, then the Germna army will have to fight the Czechs.

That they will win is without a doubt. The fact that they won't get their hands on a ton of modern tanks, equipment, intact industry etc. should, in this scenario, IMO, also be clear.
 
I am.

Hitler sheduled a German invasion of Bohemia and Moravia for the morning of 15 March.

On March 13 he invited Tiso.

On March 14, Slovak independence was declared.

On March 15 he summoned Hácha to Berlin and threatened a Luftwaffe attack on Prague. Hácha suffered a heart attack and gave in to Hitler's demands.


No Slovak declaration of independence might give Hácha enough balls to try and negotiate with Hitler, who might or might not order an invasion later that day to bully him into accepting. If he does and there is no stand-down order, then the Germna army will have to fight the Czechs.

That they will win is without a doubt. The fact that they won't get their hands on a ton of modern tanks, equipment, intact industry etc. should, in this scenario, IMO, also be clear.

Much of that Czech materiel will have already been aquired via the anneation of Sudetenland.
 

MSZ

Banned
The Hungarians wouldn't want all of it - at that point, they were more less satisfied with what they had, thought they could push for more (not much) they got OTL. If Hitler takes Czechia in 1939 and the Slovaks would do nothing, it would most likely become a second protectorate, or part of one larger one with Bohemia-Moravia.

If Tiso would not declare independence, it's most likely somebody else would - Prague's authority over Slovakia was weakening by the month since Munich, and it was only a matter of time if Czecho-Slovakia (the post Munich version) would change it's constution de jure accepting Slovakia's autonomy, or if Slovakia would gather enough international support to declare independence on it's own.
 
My thought was that the country might get converted into Gau Pressburg and Gau Hauerland. Later, perhaps there is after all a Gau Beskidenland
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
My thought was that the country might get converted into Gau Pressburg and Gau Hauerland. Later, perhaps there is after all a Gau Beskidenland
Would the Germans want to bother incorporating it/holding it down? The great thing about client states is that they can keep things quiet(ish) on the homefront while you focus on the battlefront.
 
Would the Germans want to bother incorporating it/holding it down? The great thing about client states is that they can keep things quiet(ish) on the homefront while you focus on the battlefront.

True, but I'm not sure how likely the population is to resist, and it could remain a protectorate during the war to be incorporated if the Germans win, I suppose, like they had planned for Bohemia and Moravia.
 
Then this probably gets moved up a few days.

All Tiso's refusal does is buy CZS a tiny bit more time.

to quote the wiki article:

Hitler, made it absolutely clear that either Slovakia would declare independence immediately and associate itself with Nazi Germany, or he would let the Hungarians, who were reported by Ribbentrop to be massing on the border, take over the country. In fact, encouraged by the Germans, the Hungarians were largely massing on the adjacent Ruthenian border
Therefor, the Hungarians were in no position to invade CZS properly, only its most easterly province.

However, there was another army in the area prepared to invade CSZ, and they even had their invasion scheduled to begin that day. You guessed it: the Germans.

A German invasion that day with no order to stand down from Hacha would lead to open hostilities betwenn Nazi Germany and CSZ. This would trigger a declaration of war from London and Paris, since now Hitler is obviously using the Munich agreement as toilet paper.

If Hungary joins in, there is a big possibility Romania and maybe even Yugoslavia will join the Allies (little entente, containing Hungarian expansionism and all that..).

Question 1:
How would Poland and the Soviet Union react ?

Question 2:
What is the state of the Wehrmacht and its opponents at this time ?


Much of that Czech materiel will have already been aquired via the anneation of Sudetenland.

I doubt they left all their tanks (which were a lot better than most German models) lying around for instance.




If Tiso would not declare independence, it's most likely somebody else would - Prague's authority over Slovakia was weakening by the month since Munich, and it was only a matter of time if Czecho-Slovakia (the post Munich version) would change it's constution de jure accepting Slovakia's autonomy, or if Slovakia would gather enough international support to declare independence on it's own.

The thing is, if Tiso has doubts, the Slovak assembly might not reach a consensus in time. Que the German and Hungarian invasion, and there's nothing binding people together like enemies shooting up both of them.
 
Much of that Czech materiel will have already been aquired via the anneation of Sudetenland.
They didn't most of the equipment, for example tanks LT vz. 35 and 38 in numbers around 450 were acquired only after March 15th.

Anyway Czech parts of country were undeffensible after Munich. But maybe by refusing Czechoslovakia could get few days and maybe put some fight in mountains region of Slovakia. Hungarians still didn't had much against full might of Czechoslovak army. If Polanrom and stay away from that, they can even gain from that. Czechoslovak inteligence service was informed few days prior at least about parts of German plans. There were even speculation for Czechoslovak air force to go to Poland. Around 500 fighter planes B-534 could help a bit. And maybe even parts of the tanks German got in march could instead reinforce Poland after retreat.
And actually, Romania partially mobilized its army in march 1939 against Hungarians.
As it was said. WWII would start early because of France and Britain guaranteed Czechoslovak border after Munich.
 

MSZ

Banned
The thing is, if Tiso has doubts, the Slovak assembly might not reach a consensus in time. Que the German and Hungarian invasion, and there's nothing binding people together like enemies shooting up both of them.

If Tiso doesn't fold to the Germans, somebody could take his place. The SLS was hardly a very united party, and the "strive for autonomy/independence" sentiment was shared by many Slovak politicians. If Tiso doesn't do it, some other member of SLS can do so (Vojtech Tuka for example) at the first moment Germans move into Bohemia. Alternately, the Social Democrats could do it, hoping for Communist support. Public support was a non-issue - the population would most likely follow anyone who would give them hope of independence.

There were even speculation for Czechoslovak air force to go to Poland. Around 500 fighter planes B-534 could help a bit. And maybe even parts of the tanks German got in march could instead reinforce Poland after retreat.

Possible. Relations between Poland and the Slovak political parties was quite warm, as Poland considered Czechoslovakias dissoluton inevitable in the first place, and an independent Slovakia gave them more hope for a Intermarum Alliance (Slovakia without the Hungarian territories lost in 1938 no longer had reasons to block such a broad alliance, the Hungarians could be stopped from anexing more territories, and Poland was seen by some as a power capable of stoping the Germans without dominating Slovakia).

As for the Soviet Union - it would do nothing. It still would have to march through Romania or Poland to act, and neither would allow it.
 
Possible. Relations between Poland and the Slovak political parties was quite warm, as Poland considered Czechoslovakias dissoluton inevitable in the first place, and an independent Slovakia gave them more hope for a Intermarum Alliance (Slovakia without the Hungarian territories lost in 1938 no longer had reasons to block such a broad alliance, the Hungarians could be stopped from anexing more territories, and Poland was seen by some as a power capable of stoping the Germans without dominating Slovakia).

As for the Soviet Union - it would do nothing. It still would have to march through Romania or Poland to act, and neither would allow it.
Actually support for alliance with Poland among Slovak politicians was lost after Poland annexed small parts of Slovak territory in November 1938. After Munich and Vienna it was probably the last drop.
 

MSZ

Banned
Actually support for alliance with Poland among Slovak politicians was lost after Poland annexed small parts of Slovak territory in November 1938. After Munich and Vienna it was probably the last drop.

True, it was also what empowered SLS significantly. But with the choice of independence guaranteed by Poland or German occupation, the former is a valid alternative, even though significantly unpopular.
 
If Germany fights the Czechoslovaks, the Hungarians aren't going to be much in the way of the Allied (Rumania, Yugoslavia, France, Britain) troops attacking Germany. Poland will wind up fighting against Germany, or against the Russians rolling over them like in 1939 on their way to Germany.
Keep in mind, the Poles are only protected from instant annexation from Russia by the threat of war with the whole of Europe to contain the Russians, and if the French, British, etc, are asking the Rusians to invade Germany by way of Poland, then that's about that.
In the real world, the German army would shoot Hitler ten minutes after the British and French publically ask the Russians to mobilize.
 
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