How far can you destroy the 'great russian' identity

[Warsie]

in OTL Ukraine and Belarus became separate then 'great russians'. how far can you create new national identities? no dialect leveling?

e.g. can you build a novrogodia or arkhanelsk identity or preserve it? can identities come out of principalities that last longer? Can you use the old dialects as good places to build new countries?

[The Ubbergeek]

On related notes, I'd like to see an 'Alt Russia' where 'Ukrainians' or 'Belarusians' are the core of 'Russia', instead of...

How they are called in Russia? 'Big Russians'?

[Michael Wittmann]

This:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomors

Pomorye AKA Northern Russians.

[Tsao]

Originally Posted by The Ubbergeek

On related notes, I'd like to see an 'Alt Russia' where 'Ukrainians' or 'Belarusians' are the core of 'Russia', instead of...

How they are called in Russia? 'Big Russians'?

They are usually called 'Great Russians'.

[The Ubbergeek]

Originally Posted by Marshal Duan

They are usually called 'Great Russians'.

Humility is a russian quality.

[Russian]

Originally Posted by The Ubbergeek

How they are called in Russia? 'Big Russians'?

Originally Posted by Marshal Duan

They are usually called 'Great Russians'.

Nowadays in Russia the Russians are called 'Russians' by non-Russian people. And the Russians themselves call themselves 'Russians'. Never 'Big Russian', no 'Great Russians'.

If in everyday ordinary conversation some Russian called himself 'Great(big) Russian' the other Russians would laugh their asses off.
Because it sounds very old-fashioned and actually funny.

I was about twelve years old when I first got to know (learned) during a History lesson at school, that the Russians were called Velikorossy (великороссы) in the 19-th century and early in the 20-th century.
I was quite surprised.

Historically there was 'Little (small) Russia' - Ukraine. And the Ukrainians were called 'Small(little) Russians' - malorossy (малороссы). It is definitely about the size of the country, not about 'inferiority' or 'insignificance' or 'defectiveness' or anything like that.

As opposed to them the inhabitants of 'Proper Russia' which was definitely bigger in size were called 'velikorossy' (великороссы). But it is about the size of the country, it has nothing to do with 'grandeur' or 'majesty' or 'mightiness' or anything like that.

So if after reading the above you still want to translate ‘Velikorossy’ into English the better choice is 'Big Russians'. In my opinion.

[The Ubbergeek]

Originally Posted by Russian

Nowadays in Russia the Russians are called 'Russians' by non-Russian people. And the Russians themselves call themselves 'Russians'. Never 'Big Russian', no 'Great Russians'.

If in everyday ordinary conversation some Russian called himself 'Great(big) Russian' the other Russians would laugh their asses off.
Because it sounds very old-fashioned and actually funny.

I was about twelve years old when I first got to know (learned) during a History lesson at school, that the Russians were called Velikorossy (великороссы) in the 19-th century and early in the 20-th century.
I was quite surprised.

Historically there was 'Little (small) Russia' - Ukraine. And the Ukrainians were called 'Small(little) Russians' - malorossy (малороссы). It is definitely about the size, not about 'inferiority' or 'insignificance' or 'defectiveness' or anything like that.

As opposed to them the inhabitants of 'Proper Russia' which was definitely bigger in size were called 'velikorossy' (великороссы). But it is about the size of the country, it has nothing to do with 'grandeur' or 'majesty' or 'mightiness' or anything like that.

So if after reading the above you still want to translate ‘Velikorossy’ into English the better choice is 'Big Russians'. In my opinion.

Ah, thank, I see... and about Belarussians? (I have an odd foundness for them, always neglegated.)

[Russian]

Originally Posted by The Ubbergeek

Ah, thank, I see... and about Belarussians? (I have an odd fondness for them, always neglegated.)

I have a fondness for them too. But it is not odd at all. It is quite natural.
My mother is pure 100% Belorussian!

And on top of that father of my dad (my grandfather) is an Ukrainian.

You may wonder why I consider myself Russian, but it is common for this country.
Any Russian ultra-patriotic, nationalistic, fascist organization would accept me as it's member if I wanted to. But I don't. I think any ultra-patriotism and nationalism to be repulsive.

As for Belorussia:
it is easy and simple. White Russia. And 'White Russians'. That is a common knowledge. Historical naming.
They are much closer to the Russians than the Ukranians.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Russian

As for Belorussia:
it is easy and simple. White Russia. And 'White Russians'. That is a common knowledge. Historical naming.
They are much closer to the Russians than the Ukranians.

If I am not mistaken, this comes from having various "color" Rus, and the other colors (red, for instance) just got forgotten (or obscured).

Is that correct?

[Russian]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

If I am not mistaken, this comes from having various "color" Rus, and the other colors (red, for instance) just got forgotten (or obscured).

Is that correct?

You know that is a very very complicated issue.

As far as I know the terms 'Red Rus' and 'Black Rus' are of the western origin. In Russian sources these names appeared as borrowing from the western sources.

It is very obscure, there are a lot of versions. May be even the term 'White Russia' for Belorussia is of western origin as well.

In the 13-15-th centuries Moscow was considered 'White Russia' in some Russian sources.
Even in the 19-th century (early 20century) the Russian tsar was called 'White tsar' by the Russians. Go figure!

[Tangerine]

The "Great Russian" region could be culturally fractured if the rise of Muscovy or a Muscovite-analogue can be butterflied away, and the region remain politically disunited. Ideally an even balance of power can be maintained between Novgorod/the northwest and the upper Volga/Oka region, the two of which essentially constituted our "Velikorossiya" in the 14th/15th centuries.

Although how this can be achieved is a mystery to me. It seems inevitable that some principality would emerge as a national unifier eventually... Perhaps the only way is to ensure that even more of Russia remains under foreign rule for a long enough time to cause a cultural divide. Maybe Sweden conquers Novgorod, or a stronger Tatar state maintains control over Vladmir-Suzdal's remnants? To be honest, neither seems very likely.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by The Ubbergeek

Humility is a russian quality.

It's geographic, like 'Great Britain' or 'Upper Egypt' or 'Germania Superior' or whatever and comes from Greek geographers. "Little Russian" was not considered at all belittling before, oh, the 1860s at the earliest and indeed in the earlier 19th century lots of conservative men of letters in Russia declared that they preferred the Little to the Great: inclement weather, nice scenery, sophisticated gentry, stout peasants, and a history supposedly jam-packed with bastard Catholics being beaten off in the name of the Tsar.

Originally Posted by The Ubbergeek

On related notes, I'd like to see an 'Alt Russia' where 'Ukrainians' or 'Belarusians' are the core of 'Russia', instead of...

Probably doable with a bit of a stretch. There was a common literary language and identity as 'Ruthenians', one of the two heirs to old Rus along with the Moscow-centred tsardom, pretty much up until the Cossack Hetmanate. So say that carries on, then the PLC breaks up down the line and 'Ruthenia' becomes a state. Meanwhile have the tsardom fall on some sort of hard times Swedes or something - and fracture or be joined in the main to Rutheia, which decides it's the legitimate heir of Rus (Khmelnytsky tried his damnedest) and hence presumably, in English, Russia

[The Ubbergeek]

Originally Posted by I Blame Communism

It's geographic, like 'Great Britain' or 'Upper Egypt' or 'Germania Superior' or whatever and comes from Greek geographers. "Little Russian" was not considered at all belittling before, oh, the 1860s at the earliest and indeed in the earlier 19th century lots of conservative men of letters in Russia declared that they preferred the Little to the Great: inclement weather, nice scenery, sophisticated gentry, stout peasants, and a history supposedly jam-packed with bastard Catholics being beaten off in the name of the Tsar.



Probably doable with a bit of a stretch. There was a common literary language and identity as 'Ruthenians', one of the two heirs to old Rus along with the Moscow-centred tsardom, pretty much up until the Cossack Hetmanate. So say that carries on, then the PLC breaks up down the line and 'Ruthenia' becomes a state. Meanwhile have the tsardom fall on some sort of hard times Swedes or something - and fracture or be joined in the main to Rutheia, which decides it's the legitimate heir of Rus (Khmelnytsky tried his damnedest) and hence presumably, in English, Russia

You missed the - smileys are used to denote humor and half seriousness. But yeah, its the bigger state (now).

Could be interesting!

[Zioneer]

You could have the Khazars survive; that would definitely destroy the Russian identity, and would probably create an all-new Ukrainian nationality.