If Germany wins WWI, can a Fascist France and Russia gang up on Germny and win during

[MarioLuigi]

WWII?

The PoD for this is the Scheiffen plan succeeding in 1914.

[mrsandman]

Your new her aren't you?

[Tsao]

Depends on how this Fascist France comes to be. Oh yeah, in regards to butterflies, WWII may be averted after all. If it is an early CP victory, the likelihood that France and Russia goes fascist is, while not impossible, highly improbable. A much more likely way to achieve this would be with a late CP victory or bloody stalemate.

[Sultan John]

If Russia is somewhat industrialized (even if not much as Stalin's USSR) and doesn't purge its officers, maybe, just maybe.

[MarioLuigi]

Originally Posted by mrsandman

Your new her aren't you?

Yes, I am rather new here. I tried searching for this topic in the search engine, but for some reason the search didn't work (it yielded a server error).

[wcv215]

You have to be more specific. When does this war happen? Who else is involved? What were the events leading up to this war?

[MarioLuigi]

Originally Posted by Marshal Duan

Depends on how this Fascist France comes to be. Oh yeah, in regards to butterflies, WWII may be averted after all. If it is an early CP victory, the likelihood that France and Russia goes fascist is, while not impossible, highly improbable. A much more likely way to achieve this would be with a late CP victory or bloody stalemate.

The only realistic late CP victory that I see possible is for Germany not to implement the Schleiffen plan and invade Belgium. Then Britain doesn't enter the war, Germany can play defense with France, and then once Russia is defeated Germany can focus all its efforts on France and make significant military progress, thus demoralizing the French and forcing them to surrender and sign a very harsh peace treaty.

(If the Michael Offensive succeeds in 1918, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire can still be crushed, and thus it won't be a full CP victory.)

As for a bloody stalemate, the peace treaty will just reflect the status quo, so I don't think anyone would be in an angry mood afterwards.

[MarioLuigi]

Originally Posted by wcv215

You have to be more specific. When does this war happen? Who else is involved? What were the events leading up to this war?

I'll let you decide this part. I think that Fascism can only come to France and Russia during the Great Depression, though.

[Tsao]

Originally Posted by MarioLuigi

The only realistic late CP victory that I see possible is for Germany not to implement the Schleiffen plan and invade Belgium. Then Britain doesn't enter the war, Germany can play defense with France, and then once Russia is defeated Germany can focus all its efforts on France and make significant military progress, thus demoralizing the French and forcing them to surrender and sign a very harsh peace treaty.

(If the Michael Offensive succeeds in 1918, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire can still be crushed, and thus it won't be a full CP victory.)

As for a bloody stalemate, the peace treaty will just reflect the status quo, so I don't think anyone would be in an angry mood afterwards.

And there's the rub. For a fascist regime to arise in France, you need to have France humiliated in the war. Extremists don't rise to power out of no where, they play on the people's genuine grievances against the current regime. If the peace treaty restores the status quo, then why would the French people opt for Fascism? In any case, a proper cause for this change in government is needed.

[Tsao]

Originally Posted by MarioLuigi

I'll let you decide this part. I think that Fascism can only come to France and Russia during the Great Depression, though.

With a CP victory, the Great Depression as we know it would probably be butterflied.

[AlternativeHistory]

Originally Posted by MarioLuigi

WWII?

The PoD for this is the Scheiffen plan succeeding in 1914.

A fascist russia? this thread is more ludicrous then mine usually are.


PS: A fascist russia is impossible, also your vagina is in the sink.

[Tsao]

Originally Posted by AlternativeHistory

A fascist russia? this thread is more ludicrous then mine usually are.


PS: A fascist russia is impossible, also your vagina is in the sink.

Hey, let's not pointlessly insult people, okay?

Also, Fascist Russia, while not very possible, could have arisen with a White victory in the RCW.

[Sarantapechaina]

Originally Posted by Marshal Duan

If the peace treaty restores the status quo, then why would the French people opt for Fascism? In any case, a proper cause for this change in government is needed.

Well, the far right did get reasonably popular in the early thirties in OTL despite France having won the war. François de la Rocque and his ilk didn't just come out of nowhere, and the rioting of the far right and alleged coup attempts on their part led pretty much directly to the establishment of the Front Populaire. Croix de Feu, Action Française, and the other organizations were viewed as a legitimate threat to the Third Republic at the time. I don't really think it's too unreasonable.

Also, I would argue that Germany's best moment for victory came in 1917 and had nothing to do with the war plan of 1914 (usually and incorrectly referred to as the "Schlieffen" plan), but that is of secondary importance.

[MarioLuigi]

Originally Posted by Marshal Duan

With a CP victory, the Great Depression as we know it would probably be butterflied.

Unlikely. The Great Depression was caused by the Fed keeping interest rates too low for too long in the 1920s (before starting to raise them in 1929). I really don't see that changing in a Germany wins WWI scenario.

[MarioLuigi]

Originally Posted by AlternativeHistory

A fascist russia? this thread is more ludicrous then mine usually are.


PS: A fascist russia is impossible, also your vagina is in the sink.

I don't have a vagina, and my girlfriend is way too civilized to pee in the sink.

And as Marshal Duan said--if the Whites won the Russian Civil War, a fascist regime could have took over in Russia in the 1930s once the Great Depression hit.

[Tsao]

Originally Posted by MarioLuigi

Unlikely. The Great Depression was caused by the Fed keeping interest rates too low for too long in the 1920s (before starting to raise them in 1929). I really don't see that changing in a Germany wins WWI scenario.

Hmmmm....if US stays out of the war, that may change. Butterflies, my friend, butterflies.

[MarioLuigi]

Originally Posted by Marshal Duan

Hmmmm....if US stays out of the war, that may change. Butterflies, my friend, butterflies.

To be honest, I'm not sure. The U.S. might not have had a recession in 1920-1921, but it would have eventually had one, and when the recession would have struck, the Fed would be very eager to use its new powers to try helping out and improving the economy.

[Sarantapechaina]

Originally Posted by MarioLuigi

Unlikely. The Great Depression was caused by the Fed keeping interest rates too low for too long in the 1920s (before starting to raise them in 1929). I really don't see that changing in a Germany wins WWI scenario.

I think most economic historians of any note have shied away from any sort of single-cause model for the GD. Interest rates weren't the only, maybe even not the primary, factor. It's a lovely cocktail.

But the Federal Reserve's interest rates were tied quite closely to the Allied war effort even before the Americans entered the war (and Fed policies are in fact one of the primary reasons the Germans could have won the war in 1917). America was the arsenal of democracy in a different sense in WWI, but it was a very real sense - American raw materials, food, and some finished products were a key part in sustaining the war effort already by the "shell shortage" days of 1914-5. Like Duan Qirui over there says, I can't imagine that there wouldn't be butterflies from a Central Powers victory.

[AlternativeHistory]

Let me show you what would happen, if a fascist france, and a fascist russia invaded a democratic germany, Let me show you via a map.

Basically, I will explain how everything would happen.

France -
Since you stated in this, Germany managed to win the war. France would become a satellite state and most likely, a facist resistance would boil and do a coup on the french puppet-government and establish a french-fascist government, in response. Germany being a mighty military power would most likely invade them and zeppelin-bomb there cities, ensuring a quick victory over france.

Italy -
Not much to talk about for this country, besides that they helped in the invasion of France and got a "slice of the pie" if I might add.

Austria-Hungary Empire -
Not much either besides that they helped in the WWI invasion and earned more land for it's vast empire.

Ottoman Empire -
Ottoman Empire collapsed in our world due to economic troubles (I think), But since Germany won WW1, with the help of Italy and Austria and Ottoman Empire, the Ottoman Empire managed to spread out more in the Middle-East and gain control of oil and that's how it would survive for some time, (I'm not sure how long it would survive, I might need a economic expert to help me here.).

Germany -
Germanys massive land-mast was created due to the France Blitzkrieg after the Fascist coup of France and WW1, It would cause the technology we have today, to come a bit earlier due to a war happening between Russia and the axis powers.

United States -
The United States, suffering a humiliating defeat at WW1 invades a Mexico, believing it cannot be trusted due to the Zimmermann Telegram
And the influence of America below in central America creates the United States of Central America, it wouldn't most likely play a role in the Russian-Axis war.

With all of this coming together, Germany would have a massive arms build-up after WW1 and would have no trouble invading Russia with the help of Ottoman Empire and Austria.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by AlternativeHistory

Let me show you what would happen, if a fascist france, and a fascist russia invaded a democratic germany, Let me show you via a map.

I must admit to being pleasantly surprised that the Netherlands haven't been absorbed by the gray cum stain on the map.

That aside, I have to assume that map is meant to be bad.