The Last Flight of XM594 - A P&S Spin-off.

[JN1]

@Petike,
As a matter of principle the rebuilt cities are in the same place. To take the examples of London and Edinburgh significant sections of the cities survived. With London what has happened is that apart from a few symbolic buildings in the centre around Whitehall and Westminster the rebuilding has been from the outside in.
Edinburgh had a pair of GZs - one with a aim point of Leith to take out the docks and another over the airport. The air blast radii of both almost overlap but areas of the city like Saughton and Slateford would survive, if battered.

@Archangel,
I think that its more than possible. By then the UK will have had several decades to rebuild its industries and more importantly its population.

@butch4343,
Thanks very much.
I do have a couple of non-RAF stories that will hopefully see the light of day some time soon. However I may well use something like that idea, so thanks.

[PMN1]

Originally Posted by JN1

little more than piles of rubble, no real progress has been started on Glasgow, for example,

I wont post the obvious reply to that......

[Macragge1]

Great final update Jan; nothing like a little optimism to counterbalance all the carnage.

I've been thinking a lot about the nature of reconstruction recently; I started reading Austerity Britain: 1945-51 by David Kynaston (which is excellent), and in a lot of ways I think one could envisage the UK looking for a long time like a bleaker version of the country in 1947. It's risky to simply transpose one era into another, however; in terms of society and culture, for example, 1947 and 1984 are worlds apart. Still, there's a few themes - mainly ideas of 'reconstruction' and 'austerity' that could be transferred across the periods.

I've also been re-reading discussions on the subject in the main thread - these few pages have a lot of interesting exploration.

A lot of the post-war era is basically going to be unknown territory, however, which is both very exciting and pretty intimidating from an author's point of view.

[Dunois]

Originally Posted by JN1

Thanks, guys, appreciated.

After all the doom and gloom of the story and the other P&S stories I felt it needed an upbeat ending. The UK has survived and is rebuilding, eventually it will be back on its feet, not some sort of 'Mad Max' type collapse and chaos as some have suggested.

I wanted to give the characters some closure. However I had originally intended to have Tootal's wife stay at Scampton and have him one day just wander off, leaving a note that he was going 'home'. Instead I had her go to Winchester, or at least a village just outside there and survive.
I accept that this is a better end for the crew than a lot of people will have experienced, but I have grown to like them.

Very good ending Macragge1, you know that we are very much on the same wavelenght with regards to what happens after and it is good to hear and feel about this.

Emrarer deliberatley chose the name to emphasise a link with the past, especially since they chose to build the factory in Northern Ireland. If you were able to look at the other aviation and high-technology companies that exist in TTL 2012 in the UK you would see that most have names of companies that existed before The War, but just under the skin are foreign companies from places like Brazil and Chile. B-N certainly does exist, as does Westlands, but they are amongst a very small number of truly British companies that still exist.

As I have said, I would however expect Franco-British efforts in TTL 2012 to try and regain some market share and "power" in high technology fields.

Originally Posted by Archangel

Just thinking, is it possible that by 2040, Britain may have fully recovered to a pre-ww3 condition (with a few technological improvements, either created in the southern Hemisphere or derived from military technology)?

By TTL2040 I would expect the world to have the technology level of OTL2012 at worst.

Honestly, the pent up demand in consumer goods will litteraly explode once things are fully normalized. People will want TV, computers and cars once again and there will be room for a lot of entrepreneurs both in Britain and overseas to try and meet that demand.

Perhaps in this world some workers in a Brazilian factory will fumes that their jobs are being offshored to some exotic place like Germany, Spain, France or Britain ...

Originally Posted by Macragge1

Great final update Jan; nothing like a little optimism to counterbalance all the carnage.

I've been thinking a lot about the nature of reconstruction recently; I started reading Austerity Britain: 1945-51 by David Kynaston (which is excellent), and in a lot of ways I think one could envisage the UK looking for a long time like a bleaker version of the country in 1947. It's risky to simply transpose one era into another, however; in terms of society and culture, for example, 1947 and 1984 are worlds apart. Still, there's a few themes - mainly ideas of 'reconstruction' and 'austerity' that could be transferred across the periods.

I've also been re-reading discussions on the subject in the main thread - these few pages have a lot of interesting exploration.

A lot of the post-war era is basically going to be unknown territory, however, which is both very exciting and pretty intimidating from an author's point of view.

Glad to see that my essay from back then is still useful .

Austerity Britain alongside a lot of other titles is on my "books to read" list for Sword of Freedom.

[John Farson]

Originally Posted by Dunois

By TTL2040 I would expect the world to have the technology level of OTL2012 at worst.

Honestly, the pent up demand in consumer goods will litteraly explode once things are fully normalized. People will want TV, computers and cars once again and there will be room for a lot of entrepreneurs both in Britain and overseas to try and meet that demand.

First you have to have the appropriate infrastructure and economy for it, not a war economy where everything imaginable is rationed and reconstruction, resettlement and maintaining law and order are the top priorities.

I think 2040 would be about right, anything earlier would be a bit too optimistic, in my mind. It will take longer to recover from WWIII than from the previous two.

[JN1]

@ PMN1,
With some bits of Glasgow it might be hard to tell the difference between pre and post bomb. Joking aside I do remember from some of the scenes I saw in that recent programme about the '70 that some places back then did look like the Bomb had already been dropped.

@ Jack,
Thanks very much.
I think that it is difficult to say what society and the world will look like in 2040 in @ never mind ITTL. I do take the view that as a species humans are pretty robust and we have in the past survived previous blows to civilisation. Just think of the Black Death, in England alone something like 50% of the entire population was killed. In modern terms that would be about 30 million people! I'd say that's comparible to the losses from the nuclear strike we see here.

My view is that the survivors would want to rebuild to pre-war levels, even if that takes several generations. Government would also want to get back to normal as soon as possible as much because of the fact that dispersed Regional Government and Emergency Powers are a pain as anything else.

[Dunois]

Originally Posted by John Farson

First you have to have the appropriate infrastructure and economy for it, not a war economy where everything imaginable is rationed and reconstruction, resettlement and maintaining law and order are the top priorities.

I think 2040 would be about right, anything earlier would be a bit too optimistic, in my mind. It will take longer to recover from WWIII than from the previous two.

I think that it will take about ten years for a "take off" to really start taking shape economically speaking. The take off will also be far more gradual than the post WW2 Economic miracle, so no 6% growth a year, but maybe 3% or 4% which is still huge. The reason for that is that obviously there is no donor and export market to play the role the US played post WW2.

The more I think about it, the more I actually find that rebuilding the infrastructure may not be as hard as it seems at first sight. The majority of the road and rail infrastructure will still be present in the countryside, which is a fair bit of a help to be fair. Most electrical lines are also bypassing large cities/targets both in Britain and France and power stations won't get hit in a large extent.
Telephone infrastructure will also be mostly intact outside of large cities that is.

Now the "nodes" of the network won't be there and that's where the critical rebuilding will take place. This will take a few years, but as we are starting from a near clean sheet, it could be easier than we think. Plus planning permissions and administrative obstructions will be a thing of the past too.

Brunel built the Great Western Mainline on the backs on mens and beasts back in 1840. When say Bristol station is rebuilt in 1987 or so, there will be a few bulldozers and steam shovels the help the job.
Workforce won't be a problem at all, since we a semblance of organisation exist, anyone with no clear skills or trade could be affected to an unskilled labour pool.

[JN1]

In a way urban planners will have a great time. They can build the sort of roads and rail links that the UK has needed for decades without needing to worry about planning enquiries, or the trouble of compulsory purchase, or demolition of buildings in the way.

Germany post 1945 gives some indication what opportunities for reconstruction after near total destruction will be possible in the UK.

[sloreck]

One advantage "recovery" will have is that in this scenario the knowledge is not lost - books, computer records etc will survive and therefore when it comes time to rebuild/replace a lot of fiddling about is bypassed. Also, the "advantage" of this sort of destruction, as has been mentioned, is that you start with a clean slate in many ways. "Old" factories are gone (bad) but unlike "real life" where something old may be used til totally useless because that's cheaper than making it new (and more energy efficient and cleaner) here everything is new.

IMHO once the worst of the post war crisis is past there will be a real drive to make everything more energy efficient and also "greener" - not because of a mass conversion to "tree-hugging" but because it will be necessary. A fair bit of the world's energy resources (oil fields, coal mines, etc) will have either been targets or secondarily affected & therefore either tight & truly destroyed or too hot to use for some times. This applies to some mines of various sorts as well, making efficient use of energy and raw materials critical. With the lingering radiation making certain croplands and fresh water sources unusable, preserving the remaining clean land & water is not just nice, its essential.

[Jukra]

Originally Posted by sloreck

IMHO once the worst of the post war crisis is past there will be a real drive to make everything more energy efficient and also "greener" - not because of a mass conversion to "tree-hugging" but because it will be necessary.

The post-war world would not be greener not just symbolically but also in concrete way. Fisheries would recover thanks to drop in fishing, even though fish would be important food source for diminished populations, forests would regrow, swamps would come back to many areas they have been dried etc. As callous as it may sound viewed in pure ecological terms a nuclear war would be a disaster in short term but a blessing in long term.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Just managed to finally read this, well done on an excellent TL! As others said earlier the scenes during and after the scramble from Elvington and Scampton were very poignant.

[Hörnla]

I'd say that there will Be a Lot of decision Making about what is to Be rebuilt, to what extent and when. Are so Many Cities in the midlands or the Ruhr necessary? How big is London Slated to Become again? Which Landmarks are affordable?

@jukra
I agree. Many countries will Be a Lot wilder again and more Natural.

@JN1
I argue that goverments will Return "to normal" rather sooner than later, at least in Nations with a firm democratic Legacy (uk,US,france,scandinavia). It is certainly possible once the Situation is generally under Control. Remember, you only Need 18th Century Technology for democracy to work. Ask the founding fathers.

Concerning the Population numbers, i do not foresee much of a Recovery. I do Not See anything Bad about this, because As Soon As society Recovers to a pre-war Level, pre-war Attitudes and Trends probably returns. For France or Britain, i See a Population Nadir at the end of the 80s, a Kind of Baby-Boom in the 90s and at Best Slow growth in the 21st Century.
If france and Britain Return to half the pre-war Population somewhen, that is Quite a Fear. Germany, Eastern Europe, will Be different Thing again.

If this is a global Trend, our Planet might Be much more manageable in the 3rd millenium than OTL.

@sloreck

I also Wonder if this Timeline becomes more ecological. I am Not sure. It may well Be that the awareness for such Things survives or Even Thrives on the Experience of ww3 and its aftermath. OTOH, once RAW Materials are rather freely available and mobile again, Society might also Return on a wasteful, throw-Away, consumerist path again. However, i Hope that 2 Billion People just do less Harm than 7.

@dunois

Concerning workforce, the Same Applies As to Population growth. Each degree of developments towards normalization Pulls Men and Women out off the disposable workforce and Gets them into "ordinary" Jobs. This will Not Happen before the Main Infrastructure is repaired. I agree that this is a) a priority and b) comparatively easy, but before Planers-gone-wild have all their ideas about rebuilt Perfect Cities fulfilled.

Concerning Economic growth due to consumerism- that will Be another Huge Challenge; to knit the Economic Net again that These desires are Not only awake, but also affordable. Also, there will Be a good deal of places where People might have their Dead neighbours Best Things in Storage... I do Not Talk about lawlessness here, Even.

[PMN1]

Presumably the Bioweapon warheaded missiles didn't fly in TTL?

[Jukra]

Originally Posted by Hörnla

I'd say that there will Be a Lot of decision Making about what is to Be rebuilt, to what extent and when. Are so Many Cities in the midlands or the Ruhr necessary? How big is London Slated to Become again? Which Landmarks are affordable?

That's true. Many of the great cities destroyed are built upon places where it makes most sense to build them with ancient or medieval technology. After the wholesale destruction the same logic will not apply. With significant population loss I'd think it would make more sense to expand those cities which have survived rather than try to rebuilt cities over virtually rotten and polluted environment. Think about the hassle if one tries to build over garbage disposal sites. Then add the cultural taboos into the mix.

[Hörnla]

Originally Posted by Jukra

That's true. Many of the great cities destroyed are built upon places where it makes most sense to build them with ancient or medieval technology. After the wholesale destruction the same logic will not apply. With significant population loss I'd think it would make more sense to expand those cities which have survived rather than try to rebuilt cities over virtually rotten and polluted environment. Think about the hassle if one tries to build over garbage disposal sites. Then add the cultural taboos into the mix.

I would Not bother with the cultural taboos, graver norms have been Pushed aside ITTL. But i Imagine it being hard to fully populate rebuilt Cities if Not by Force/incentives. Many People will Not want to Leave places they experienced to Be "safe". But they Know now that a Place called "London" will Be at the end of crosshairs. You could ignore that before 1984- but Not afterwards.

However, if you offer good Jobs and modern housing and put restrictions on "surviving" Cities, you can overcome that.

I think that even in antiquity or the Middle ages, People had a good idea where a City can thrive and that in Most Cases still Applies. Look at London. The Geograph screams for a Large City there. Don't Need to Be 7 Million inhabitants (Esp. Not if this constitutes 50% of all britons), but it would certainly swell to several 100k again.

Now, reconstruction could really work differently than After '45. Different possibilities (Planers can so-to-say Build a 2.0 Version of a City with massive leeway) and different Attitudes.

London in 2012 might Be described As follows:
Home of 270,000 inhabitants it prepares for the Return of Government. Planers have tried to create a Cluster of densely built neighbourhoods which are crisscrossed by Wide avenues with several reserved lanes for busses bicycles... Naturally, this Street Pattern only partially Overlaps with old London. Remarkable are the Many Large Parks, Especially towards the East and along both sides of the thames. London has Become a rather Green City and while it hosts only slightly more citizens than when Shakespeare died, it spreads far further than that in the Age of Cars, Busses and by now three Underground Lines.
So far,Few buildings were reconstructed up to Standards of post-1945 rebuilding of Landmarks. Most notable are Parliament and Westminster Abbey. Whitehall Looks similar, but actually that is only facade. However, Many recent commercial buildings from the Late 2000s and 2010s Sport that Neo-edwardian style. Trafalgar Square is mainly a construction Site, but it is Supports to Be reconstructed by 2020. St.paul's is in the Process of being built As a Modernist Monster, a cheap and controversial project. Also there is heated discussion if the Tower, Whose foundations are a Memorial at present, is to Be resurrected. Tower Bridge, meanwhile, has been opened As a longer, higher and wider Suspension Bridge, quoting the old Design in Many ingenious ways so that it besame quickly accepted. Buckingham Palace has been built in a far more modest scale. It is insisted that Inspiration stems from Palladian entlieh architects such As inigo Jones, but Older Americans visiting Regularly exclaim that it Looks just like the White House used to.

### this desription is just an Optimistic Possibiliy, there is no Demand for it to Be regarded As Canon###

[MrChief]

Definitely worth exploring possibly in some detail

[Baron Bizarre]

Never mind all that, how soon after the War will Doctor Who come back on?


Slightly more seriously, I wonder how long it would take entertainment/art for entertainment's/art's sake to re-establish itself, and what forms it would take. I expect that there would be a resurgence in oral storytelling in the immediate post-War period, until things stabilized enough that broadcasting for other than official purposes to be re-established. I suppose it would take awhile for the resources to be available for something like Hollywood to develop again. I imagine that for people born post-War their idea of what the pre-War world was like might well be shaped by what copies of what films happened to survive the War ("We have ten clean copies of every film Ed Wood ever made, but three-quarters of Hitchcock is gone!") .

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Baron Bizarre

Never mind all that, how soon after the War will Doctor Who come back on?


Slightly more seriously, I wonder how long it would take entertainment/art for entertainment's/art's sake to re-establish itself, and what forms it would take. I expect that there would be a resurgence in oral storytelling in the immediate post-War period, until things stabilized enough that broadcasting for other than official purposes to be re-established. I suppose it would take awhile for the resources to be available for something like Hollywood to develop again. I imagine that for people born post-War their idea of what the pre-War world was like might well be shaped by what copies of what films happened to survive the War ("We have ten clean copies of every film Ed Wood ever made, but three-quarters of Hitchcock is gone!") .

Could be worse with TV. Imagine; every copy of Fawlty Towers, Monty Python, and Dad's Army is gone but episodes of Mind Your Language and the Black and White Minstrel Show survive...

[Petike]

Originally Posted by JN1

As a matter of principle the rebuilt cities are in the same place. To take the examples of London and Edinburgh significant sections of the cities survived. With London what has happened is that apart from a few symbolic buildings in the centre around Whitehall and Westminster the rebuilding has been from the outside in. Edinburgh had a pair of GZs - one with a aim point of Leith to take out the docks and another over the airport. The air blast radii of both almost overlap but areas of the city like Saughton and Slateford would survive, if battered.

Thank you for the answer.

[Chipperback]

"Imagine; every copy of Fawlty Towers, Monty Python, and Dad's Army is gone but episodes of Mind Your Language and the Black and White Minstrel Show survive...

Some copies of these shows will live through the war as will some copies of earlier editions of Doctor Who.

They are in a vault at the broadcasting facilities of Nebraska Educational Television, Lincoln, Nebraska.

In the earlier 1980s previous seasons of these fine shows and many others were played on my state's public broadcaster. And at least one intrepid soul made sure to secure these treasures, just as another secured some important things from the Omaha radio station where he worked.