Isaac's Empire 2.0

[Minerva233]

Excellent update BG! Keep it coming and it looks as if it is time for a good old Byzantine succession crisis, wouldn't be the empire without one.

[rldragon]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Glad to know I brought you here.

I'm not sure. IE not wanky enough for you?

Well, it's a little bit wanky, but no where near that it kills a reader's joy (read: rhomanion fan). I could use something even more overpowering on the "Byzantine" side.

[Grouchio]

Say, when (and if) we reach the Early Italian Renaissance at the dawn of the 13th century, wouldn't fashions in Italy also blossom and appear more like our renaissance?
And I wonder if brother Issac Komnenos is becoming emperor soon?

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

As do I!

Well done on the 600th post, very appropriate that it's on an IE thread, I feel.



This is a reference to the beginnings of the revolt of the generals, though Ignatius is a little confused on his chronology- it seems likely that he was quite elderly when he wrote his history, and his writing is consequently a few months out. He places the battle as taking place in late 1063, and only very briefly references it- "(Isaac) then returned towards Iconium (from Cappadocia) and he caused great upset". This is probably in part due to Ignatius' hatred of Isaac, he's very reluctant to admit that the Emperor won this conclusive victory.


He's a smart guy, Isaac will be grateful for that lucky arrow. I agree that Kekavmenos Katakalon is an unusual name, though I do think that it's Greek. Could Megas or one of our other Greek speaking readers enlighten us, perhaps?


I think it'll remain important, if not pre-eminent, until the Mongol invasions. Then I may have it destroyed, who knows. We shall see!


I doubt many of them were very happy with it!


Well, he didn't die peacefully in bed, did he?


Civil wars are an inescapable factor of Byzantine political life, though. It's really just a matter of when, not if, the next one breaks out, and how competent its leadership was. Isaac was very, very lucky at Claudiopolis- and it's not often that luck on this scale comes around for any commander!

The correct name is Katakalon Kekavmenos(the surname phonetically-regarding the spelling)and I agree it is very unusual even for a greek name.

[LSCatilina]

Suscribed.

I wanted to read IE for long times, but the size of your TL quite slowed my will. So i can say you that i really enjoy this new version.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Thank you- welcome aboard!



Cheers!

Writing the next chapter now, which will feature a segment on the Investiture Controversy. Do readers feel I should have an entirely ATL controversy, given we're now sixteen years from our POD, or a similar-to-OTL one, given the essential elements of the Controversy were seeded before the POD, and the change in Italian politics due to Isaac's reign has been minimal.

Answers on a postcard, please!

I haven't read your first story and I don't know what you have in store for Alexios Comnenos(for me the most competent emperor of Byzantium)

[Basileus Giorgios]

Originally Posted by Archangel

Nice update, BG!

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Minerva233

Excellent update BG! Keep it coming and it looks as if it is time for a good old Byzantine succession crisis, wouldn't be the empire without one.

Indeed it would not. There'll be at least three succession crises in the next century or so, you'll be pleased to know. I may decide to chuck in more, who knows.

Originally Posted by rldragon

Well, it's a little bit wanky, but no where near that it kills a reader's joy (read: rhomanion fan). I could use something even more overpowering on the "Byzantine" side.

Ha, yes, I do try to make this TL reasonably balanced.

Originally Posted by Grouchio

Say, when (and if) we reach the Early Italian Renaissance at the dawn of the 13th century, wouldn't fashions in Italy also blossom and appear more like our renaissance?
And I wonder if brother Issac Komnenos is becoming emperor soon?

In 1.0, I had the renaissance kick-started earlier by the very ATL development of Italian politics in the twelfth century. I'll probably stay with that in 2.0.

As for Isaac, he could do, he's certainly the rival Alexios fears most. But remember he's several years older than his brother, and has arguably led a more active and gruelling life, battling on the frontiers. There's no guarantee that Isaac will even be alive when Alexios departs this world...

Originally Posted by cimon

The correct name is Katakalon Kekavmenos(the surname phonetically-regarding the spelling)and I agree it is very unusual even for a greek name.

I've seen both variants of the name used. I ultimately went for Ke-Ka because that's the one I found in history books, particularly Angold's work, which has been the basis of a lot of IE 2.0. Ka-Ke appears most frequently, it seems, on Wikipedia, which gives me suspicions. I wonder where this divergence comes from?

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

Suscribed.

I wanted to read IE for long times, but the size of your TL quite slowed my will. So i can say you that i really enjoy this new version.

Welcome aboard.

As for the next update. I've been reading a lot this past few days about Armenians in the Empire, and this has firmly persuaded me that the next chapter should have a much greater focus on the Empire's Armenian Question, which has been simmering but not yet come to the boil. So, if it suits everyone, I propose to wrap up Alexios Komnenos' reign with an update focused on Anatolia in the early part of the twelfth century. Stayed tuned.

[Daylight Savings]

The timeline has been very interesting so far, keep up the good work. Are there plans for a map in any future updates?

[Analytical Engine]

Always nice to have Byzantowank. More please!

[Basileus Giorgios]

Originally Posted by Daylight Savings

The timeline has been very interesting so far, keep up the good work. Are there plans for a map in any future updates?

Thanks. If Ares96 wants to make one, he's more than welcome to do so, but, for now, very little has changed from the original map regarding the Empire's frontiers. Southern Italy is now consolidated, Sicily and Ravenna have been added to the Empire, and Sardinia is in the process of consolidation. That's about it, thus far.

[Grouchio]

I think I need to rinse out my brain after reading up to page 15 in your original thread, Basilius!! Why isn't Rome the sole empire of the world?!

[Basileus Giorgios]

Question for those who know more about the world of Islam than I do...

Prior to 1189, there was only a single mosque in Constantinople, that was sponsored by the Fatimid Caliphs. Now, would it be possible for Sunni Muslims to use a mosque sponsored by Shiites? Or would they require their own building for religious use?

As the next update will deal with diplomacy with the Islamic states as part of its general "Eastern" vibe, I felt I should ask...

[Russian]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Question for those who know more about the world of Islam than I do...

Prior to 1189, there was only a single mosque in Constantinople, that was sponsored by the Fatimid Caliphs. Now, would it be possible for Sunni Muslims to use a mosque sponsored by Shiites? Or would they require their own building for religious use?

As the next update will deal with diplomacy with the Islamic states as part of its general "Eastern" vibe, I felt I should ask...

Well, I am not an expert on Islam. At all.

But as far as I know nowadays if you are a Muslim and you are abroad in some un-Muslim country you can visit any mosque. And it does not matter if you are Sunni or Shii - you would be warmly welcomed.
And it is not considered as a betrayal of 'Sunniism' or 'Shiism', quite a natural thing for Islam.

It is not like with the Christians: a Catholic wouldn't attend an Orthodox or Protestant church under any circumstances. And vice versa.

My guess is that it was this way before with the Muslims. Though I might be mistaken.

[ImmortalImpi]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Question for those who know more about the world of Islam than I do...

Prior to 1189, there was only a single mosque in Constantinople, that was sponsored by the Fatimid Caliphs. Now, would it be possible for Sunni Muslims to use a mosque sponsored by Shiites? Or would they require their own building for religious use?

As the next update will deal with diplomacy with the Islamic states as part of its general "Eastern" vibe, I felt I should ask...

Let's say that the Fatimids get overthrown( ), and a Sunni dynasty rules in its place. Depending on the relations between them and Byzantium, they may request to renew sponsorship and 'clean it up', so to speak, of any Fatimid remnants. This was done in the al-Azhar mosque and others taken over by Saladin. If they have bad relations, they may not ask at all.

[037771]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

As the next update will deal with diplomacy with the Islamic states as part of its general "Eastern" vibe, I felt I should ask...

I can help you with this bit; for my own essay research, I've managed to accumulate a modest JSTOR bibliography. That and I have the book on Byzantine Diplomacy, but you're all far away and I need it.

[Analytical Engine]

Originally Posted by Russian

It is not like with the Christians: a Catholic wouldn't attend an Orthodox or Protestant church under any circumstances. And vice versa.

That depends on the person. Some might, if there wasn't any other suitable church in the area, but others would be less enclined.

[Space Oddity]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Question for those who know more about the world of Islam than I do...

Prior to 1189, there was only a single mosque in Constantinople, that was sponsored by the Fatimid Caliphs. Now, would it be possible for Sunni Muslims to use a mosque sponsored by Shiites? Or would they require their own building for religious use?

As the next update will deal with diplomacy with the Islamic states as part of its general "Eastern" vibe, I felt I should ask...

I suspect they would be fine. I mean, technically, the Fatimids were viewed as erring heretics by most of their fellow Shiites. Even Ismailist Shiites. (Also most of their subjects were Sunni.)

[Russian]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russian
It is not like with the Christians: a Catholic wouldn't attend an Orthodox or Protestant church under any circumstances. And vice versa.

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine

That depends on the person. Some might, if there wasn't any other suitable church in the area, but others would be less enclined.

Ye, some might. But I presume the Christians would do it secretly, because it would be considered as a serious sin by their own church authorities and their co-religionists.
And I am sorry but nowadays I just can not imagine a deeply religious Catholic visiting a Protestant or an Orthodox Church to pray. And vice versa.
I am afraid such guys risk getting to hell for that

But AFAIK with the Muslims it's not a problem.

[ImmortalImpi]

Originally Posted by Space Oddity

I suspect they would be fine. I mean, technically, the Fatimids were viewed as erring heretics by most of their fellow Shiites. Even Ismailist Shiites. (Also most of their subjects were Sunni.)

Ehhh, this is really ambiguous. The only Isma'ilis that saw the Fatimids as erring heretics were the Nizaris and that was fairly late in Fatimid history, after they had lost Syria. Then the movement split into two main sects; Musta'lis, and Nizaris. There were other split-offs such as the Druze who believed that Caliph al-Hakim was divine, but there were few other schisms within the Isma'ilis at the time.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Yorel

Good update BG.


Yeah, that sounds like Family trouble for the Komnenos.
Speaking of family: what about Basil Palailogos? After all, he is the husband of Alexios' daughter Anna. Will he eventually play a role in the succession, maybe even make a claim of his own?

No right of sucession there,unless we accept a more potent one,that of Anna(sister of Alexius the emperor) Comnene's children with her husband Nikiforos Bryennios.