A History Without the Death of Chirst

[Paul Simmons]

What effect would this have on history? What is Pontius Pilate hadn't ordered Jesus to be crucified? Would there still be a foundation for the Christian Church?

[Roger II]

Assuming for the purpose of discussion that the historical end of the biblical narrative is accurate, it sort of hinges on what happens to Jesus after this. Does his movement wind up snowballing? If it does, maybe we get an earlier Bar-Kochba revolt-like event or it splits between the more strictly religious elements and the more politicized elements. Does it not? In that case, he gets filed under "yet another messianic weirdo" and nothing much changes.
EDIT: If you want to get rid of Christianity, having Saul not convert works just as well.

[Paul Simmons]

I think he would keep preaching and spread his teachings farther and faster then after his death. I'm just not sure if people would take to it as well.

[Mike Stearns]

Originally Posted by Roger II

Assuming for the purpose of discussion that the historical end of the biblical narrative is accurate, it sort of hinges on what happens to Jesus after this. Does his movement wind up snowballing? If it does, maybe we get an earlier Bar-Kochba revolt-like event or it splits between the more strictly religious elements and the more politicized elements.

It may still take a miracle for people to buy into Christianity, but it may be a different miracle. Let's say Jesus winds up leading some kind of armed rebellion against the Romans. In that case instead of the miracle being the Resurrection, it may be that Jesus' army wins a battle that should have been a crushing Roman victory and eyewitnesses later claim that Jesus routed the Romans by summoning a legion of angels. If that's the case, than the broad strokes of western history are probably the same, but the details different, which results in a world that is different than ours, but somewhat recognizable.

Originally Posted by Roger II

Does it not? In that case, he gets filed under "yet another messianic weirdo" and nothing much changes.

Here I disagree, if Jesus is crucified and written off as just another religious nut, then Christianity is reduced to a historical foot note at best and western history from this point on is totally alien to us.

[MerryPrankster]

Leaving aside the question of whether or not Christianity is true, Jesus might become a Buddha-like figure. Buddha didn't need to die and be resurrected (if the Biblical account is true) to found Buddhism.

[Roger II]

Er to clarifly, by "historical part" I meant "there was a dude named Jesus who managed to piss off enough people to get executed on Pilate's orders" and assuming that he is neither the son of God nor the messiah. I'm just mentioning that what happens from Jesus not being executed depends on how he does after that. Also, I meant "nothing much changes thanks to Jesus TTL", although the butterflies would take a little while to show up.
Also, any revolt against the romans is likely to be a failure-the best chance for a Jewish state to survive is really the first/second century rebellions not getting off the ground and then the next revolt to get off the ground happening when the empire is disintegrating.

[Andrew T]

Not to get too far into a thorny topic, but you might want to familiarize yourself with at least the arguments being made by contemporary historians who think there might not have been a real Jesus at all ("Christ Myth theory"). Two you might want to check out are Robert M. Price and Earl Doherty.

Anyway, I'm not saying you need to be persuaded by Christ Myth theory, but if you're going to do an alt-Jesus TL, you might at least want to familiarize yourself with those who think we're already living in that TL.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Not to get too far into a thorny topic, but you might want to familiarize yourself with at least the arguments being made by contemporary historians who think there might not have been a real Jesus at all ("Christ Myth theory"). Two you might want to check out are Robert M. Price and Earl Doherty.

Anyway, I'm not saying you need to be persuaded by Christ Myth theory, but if you're going to do an alt-Jesus TL, you might at least want to familiarize yourself with those who think we're already living in that TL.

Those two aside, I was under the impression the Jesus Myth theory was not widely accepted by experts in their field.

(And some of the modern Jesus Myth Theory devotees believe that because they hate Christianity, not because they have evidence against His existence. Go to the site "Jesusneverexisted.com" and they spend a lot of time harping on crimes done in the name of Christ, which are irrelevant to whether He existed or not.)

[Mike Stearns]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Those two aside, I was under the impression the Jesus Myth theory was not widely accepted by experts in their field.

(And some of the modern Jesus Myth Theory devotees believe that because they hate Christianity, not because they have evidence against His existence. Go to the site "Jesusneverexisted.com" and they spend a lot of time harping on crimes done in the name of Christ, which are irrelevant to whether He existed or not.)

Agreed. The Bible is the most heavily studied book ever written. Whether or not you believe in the miracles of Jesus is an act of faith and a personal choice, but in more than 2,000 years no one has put forth conclusive evidence demonstrating that Jesus did not exist.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Mike Stearns

Agreed. The Bible is the most heavily studied book ever written. Whether or not you believe in the miracles of Jesus is an act of faith and a personal choice, but in more than 2,000 years no one has put forth conclusive evidence demonstrating that Jesus did not exist.

Given how a large amount of what those who have written on it has been with taking what it says on faith (which is not the is counter to study of it as a matter of weighing what it says for objective purposes), I think calling it the most studied book ever written is a bit much.

What would be conclusive evidence for something like that?

Its not like you can say that there's no birth certificate proves anything, for instance.

[Andrew T]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Those two aside, I was under the impression the Jesus Myth theory was not widely accepted by experts in their field.

(And some of the modern Jesus Myth Theory devotees believe that because they hate Christianity, not because they have evidence against His existence. Go to the site "Jesusneverexisted.com" and they spend a lot of time harping on crimes done in the name of Christ, which are irrelevant to whether He existed or not.)

This isn't really the case. Certainly there are some Jesus mythicists who are hardcore (you might say "evangelical") New Atheists -- just as there are Biblical historians who are also fundamentalist Christians.

But the primary Jesus Mythicist is Robert Price, host of the "Bible Geek" podcast, churchgoing atheist, former pastor, and self-described as one who "loves the Bible." You can't pigeonhole him with this caricature.

(And even if you could: so what? You have to deal with the arguments as the arguments, not based on who holds them.)

In any event: I don't want to get into a theological debate. I just think that if you're going to write an alternate history story, it might be a good idea to know as much as possible about the history as you can.